No one's putting Hillary in the corner.

>> Not me. Nope. No way.

>> Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Kara Swisher and once

again, it's time for

>> Scott Free August.

>> That's right. Scott Free August has

begun and in honor of that in honor of

that, I have a very special guest as our

first guest co-host. I brought in Scott

Galloway's hero, former Secretary of

State Hillary Clinton. Welcome, Madam

Secretary.

>> Oh, it's great to be here. I didn't know

this was officially Scott Free August.

>> Yeah, you're the kickoff.

>> Yeah, I'm excited. Wherever you are,

Scott, have a great August.

>> We are very excited to have you here.

You're one of my heroes, too. And we've

had some good times recently to

chit-chat and we're doing stuff. We're

talking about things and you just went

to the Liberty game. How did that go?

>> Oh my god. Well, you know, because

you've been there. It is the most

exciting and fun experience. I mean,

honestly, the way that arena, you know,

Barclay in Brooklyn lights up with the

Liberty and of course Ellie the elephant

who is naughty and fun.

>> Did you mind the naughtiness? No.

>> Well, not at all. No. I mean, she was

shaking her tail at me the whole time. I

loved it.

>> And they won. The crowd loved you, by

the way. Let me just say.

>> Oh, well, I love the crowd. I mean, this

you know, going to a Liberty game in the

summer in New York, people are in a good

mood. They're happy. They're you know,

they cheered literally everything. I

mean,

if the referee walked, you know, onto

the court, they cheered. They were just

in such a good mood.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> I would like to bottle that and make

sure that it's available year-round. I

mean, I I would encourage anybody, you

know,

my husband

watches

all you know, watches both men's and

women's basketball and I watch some of

it as well.

But there is just a feeling and my

friends told me this. You told me this

and others told me. Just go to a game.

You will have a sport experience. I've

been to women's soccer games

but being in an arena with a crowd that

is so enthusiastic and it was just

and a naughty elephant and a naughty

elephant.

I wish we had a donkey but it was a

naughty elephant.

>> [laughter]

>> Okay, that might turn around the

Democratic Party. You think so?

Question, what have you done the rest of

the summer? What are you up to? I've

done a lot of traveling with my family

going out west, went to you know,

Wyoming with my daughter and her husband

and

the three grandkids, had a great time,

visited some friends in Montana, you

know, obviously the American West is

just awesome in every way and I like to

hike and so just getting out in

into the mountains.

>> Yeah, did you get out to the Dakotas? Do

you want to be on Mount Rushmore? Do you

think you should be on Mount Rushmore?

Just [laughter] thinking.

>> Not only do I not want to be on Mount

Rushmore, I don't think anybody else

should be added to Mount Rushmore. But

it's a it's quite a sculptural feat. I

mean, when you do get there and you look

at these giant heads on the side of this

mountain. Now, I'm also told that

kind of similar to the reflecting pool,

screwing with it could possibly bring

the whole thing down. I'm just I'm just

predicting that there may be

conversations happening

some places that you know, Washington,

Southern Florida about trying to figure

out how to shoehorn another head into

that. Yeah, I don't think that's a good

idea.

>> No, nobody does except one person. But

can I ask you a question really quickly

about the reflecting pool? How do you

feel about that? What's happening? Like,

when what Jeanine Pirro did.

>> Well, first of all, you if you go

go through the chronology,

uh

it's really clear what happened. You

know, they hired a guy who didn't know

what he was doing, and he did what he

didn't know, and the result is, you

know, the algae center of the universe.

And, you know, I think even Jeanine

Pirro says, "I can't prove this case."

Now, she went in guns a blazing into the

Oval Office, I read, uh and basically,

you know, said to the president, "It's

not my fault, it's his fault." and

points to the Interior Secretary, which

has some truth to it. I mean, she's a US

Attorney, she's not the Interior

Secretary, she doesn't run the National

Park Service, she didn't give the

contract to the

pool contractor who didn't know what he

was doing. Um and so, she survived. Uh

she actually had good arguments on her

side, and she was unafraid to make them.

But, it's just a another example of the

absurd world in which we are living,

that you've got the President of the

United States obsessing over a failed

pool job, a construction job

>> gone wrong that

>> oversaw, just like what he's doing now

on the South Lawn, tearing it up for the

helicopter landing zone.

>> Right.

>> I mean, honestly, the guy

is so out of it right now, unhinged,

obsessed and focused on all the wrong

things.

Um

you know, maybe we're maybe we should be

happy he's messing around with the

reflecting pool and, you know, nothing

not starting another war somewhere else.

>> Yeah, can I We're going to get into some

news in a second, but did you like the

East Wing? Did you want a ballroom ever?

>> Um I

never really thought about it. You know,

what we did, and it was a it was a

temporary solution, everybody did it. If

you had too many guests coming, it would

be there either outside or you'd put up

a tent. Um now,

I I'm not against the idea of a

ballroom. I'm against this ballroom. I'm

against the process that well, the fact

the fact there was no process

that created this, you know, carbuncle

on the side of uh the White House which

I think is so

uh unfortunate-looking.

Um so, I don't know the next president's

going to have a big decision. What do

you do with a half-finished, you know,

ballroom?

>> What would you do? What would you do

with that one?

>> You know, I don't know. I mean, the idea

of tearing it down is and we don't know

really what's going on underneath it.

You know, under the, you know, several

floors down under the White House, there

are

um you know, security

>> Secret rooms, I assume.

>> infrastructures. There are, you know,

safe rooms. It It If you remember after

9/11, there's a picture of Condi Rice

and Dick Cheney in a room, a very, you

know, kind of crowded-looking room. That

is under the White House. So, I don't

know what they're doing down there. So,

you'd have to figure that out, too.

Um but, I think they'll have to be

some uh you probably have to take down

the arch,

uh which he is determined to put up,

which I think is just just a terrible

idea. I think we'll have to worry about

the reflecting pool because it's not

going to be fixed by the time he leaves,

assuming he leaves. So, there's going to

be a long list. I'm making a list.

>> Are you making a list? Are you going to

de-gold the horses? Those are

>> De-gold the horses, take down the stable

of gold.

>> Yeah, I saw I saw a picture. I saw a

picture.

>> Feels like Saddam Hussein. I mean,

seriously.

>> what? That's a very You know, when I was

in Baghdad after uh the fall of uh

Saddam Hussein, I had meetings. I was a

senator. I had meetings in some of his

palaces and they were quite

reminiscent of uh what we are seeing in

our own White House. It's just

insane.

>> Is that hard for you to watch or do you

just feel like I'll take down the gold?

>> to me. It's sad that it's so tacky'd up

and it is

it's a reflection of you know his

narcissistic

personality and his need to feel

important including sticking gold uh

embellishments all over the walls of the

Oval Office. I mean I was in the Oval

Office

you know under

gosh I think Carter

um you know Bill obviously

>> You know that house.

>> Obama Biden etc.

And I'm looking at what he's doing to it

and this is a man who can't concentrate.

This is a man who is mind

apparently goes to where can I add more

gold instead of

how do I get out of Iran without looking

like the loser that I am?

>> We'll get to that.

>> Uh how do I begin to you know deal with

AI which is a serious threat to our

security, our labor force and so much

else. He his mind is about what are

these things that reflect my

need to appear important and so that's

what he spends his time on.

>> Right.

>> You should be the secretary of taking

down the gold.

>> Wouldn't that be a good idea?

>> Yeah.

>> Secretary of cleaning it up.

>> Fixing

>> you have oh my they would lose their

mind. Anyway well it's already gone. Um

let's talk let's move to the Democrats

as we tape progressive candidate Abdul

El Sayed has narrowly won Michigan's

Democratic Senate primary defeating

moderate

>> [snorts]

>> representative Haley Stevens in one of

the party's most watched races. The race

has been widely viewed as a test of

Democratic Party's direction pitting the

progressives against the establishment.

Representative Haley Stevens aside spent

over $64 million in ads in the race,

while El Saied spent $7.1 million.

El Saied, who's backed by Bernie Sanders

and AOC, will face Republican Mike

Rogers in the general election that

could help determine the control of the

Senate. How much should Democrats read

into these results?

>> Well, I think you have to look at both

the candidates and

the messages and the

support that each had.

I know Haley she was a terrific member

of Congress. She was a really effective

member of Obama's uh

auto

recovery task force.

She's a doer. She's a doer, but she's

not a modern politician. I mean, she is

not somebody who has mastered

the art of video and performance online.

And I think part of the lesson is that's

what people are looking for, or at least

half the people, cuz as you said, it was

absolutely skin tight. The election

wasn't even called until just recently

this morning.

And so I think we're living in an era

where because of people's, you know,

attention spans and their obsession with

their screens, they're looking for

a candidate, regardless of almost where

that candidate might stand or their

positioning,

but who first and foremost they can

relate to through the screen. How does

that person come across? And

I'm just hoping that the people who come

across well on the screen are also

people who can produce results because

that's not always the same thing, but

that's what the evolution

of, you know, political contests now is

pointing us towards.

>> Is it more than just the screen? Cuz I

mean, look, being good at podcast isn't

going to get you elected, right?

Exactly. You have to have that skill, as

you had to have various skills over the

years. But there's this whole idea that

there's this sort of struggle within the

Democratic Party, and I think of my own

son who lives in Michigan. He just liked

what he had to say. There And there's

also a throw the bums out thing. I think

he was impacted by the money. He was

sort of like, "What's with that?" And I

And he he wanted to be able to

articulate it without being like, "I

don't like APAC {slash} Elon {slash}

anybody coming in." And he wanted to be

able to articulate that without being

called anti-Semitic or whatever it

happens to be. He just was

>> Well, that that that's was a That was

going to be my my second point. I think

that the message was very powerful. And

you know, people are fed up. They want

to see results. They want to see

government working for them. That's

Those who voted for Trump, that's what

they thought they were getting. And so I

I I do think that the message, uh, which

is, you know, very clear, you know,

Medicare for all, get money out of

politics, uh, and the fact that she was

an incumbent, um, all of that that

worked to, uh, the advantage, uh, of,

uh, El Sayed. So, I think it was a it

was a

confluence of his skills, uh, his his,

uh, presentation skills, which I think

are pretty obvious,

uh, not an incumbent. He also had pretty

broad name recognition cuz he had run

against Gretchen Whitmer. He wasn't

totally new to the uh, to the state or

to the voters. Uh, and his his message

was, uh, a very clear simple

straightforward you know, Medicare for

all, get money out of politics, um, and

also, you know, I uh, I think there was,

you know, some questioning on the part

of people like, "Really, I I I just want

to try something different. I I'm just

not happy with where we are."

>> where we are. Do you What would you do

She I'm not asking you for advice, but

what should Democrats do about this sort

of And the right is really taking

advantage of it

It's the progressive left um, communist.

Those are powerful words. But

What How do you

To me you just say we have a lot of

people. We have a lot of different

people in different states. What's the

very different from Mickey Sheryl, very

different from Amy Klobuchar, very

different from, you know, that kind of

thing or Gretchen Whitmer even. Do you

think it is a wake-up call or or just a

like we evolve and we change kind of

thing?

>> Yeah, no, look, I think there's no doubt

that, you know, the Republican Party is

the Trump cult and the Democratic Party

is a bigger tent. You know, we do have

a broad cross-section

of people, what they believe, what their

experiences are. I think that's an

advantage.

But we also have to win general

elections. And so how we pivot

and get behind the candidate in Michigan

so that we can beat, you know, the

Republican candidate Mike Rogers. That's

going to That's going to require a lot

of outreach and a lot of willingness on

the part of the

you know, the winning candidate and his

supporters to know that they need the

people that they

were vilifying online, in person. I

mean, the kind of things that were said

about Haley, her supporters, you know,

there were a lot of really

nasty personal attacks.

>> Which you're familiar with. You're I

mean, that's nothing new.

>> I am familiar with it. And And you know,

one thing that we haven't yet seen

enough of is that when the progressives,

the left, whatever we want to call, you

know, candidates on that side of the the

Democratic Party, when they lose, they

often don't support the

candidate that has been nominated. You

know, there was a lot of reluctance to

support Kamala Harris. There was a lot

of reluctance to support me when I got

the nomination. So

it can't be a one-way street. You know,

if we're going to if we're going to have

a

fair election as there was in Michigan,

and somebody comes out ahead a little

bit ahead, but needs to get a huge

percentage of the voters that voted for

Haley,

they're going to have to be willing to,

you know, get in get into a conversation

that brings those people over.

>> Back and forth, right. Yeah.

>> You're not going to convince Republican

voters in Michigan and the and the real

fight will be how how do we make sure

that people who voted for Haley feel

comfortable voting for uh

Abdul El-Sayed, and how do we get

independents to feel comfortable? And

you can see

that it's not just about Michigan, but

the Republican messaging is communist,

socialist. It's going to be a very uh

effective attack. And so, people on the

left have to be prepared to to answer

that and to be effective in answering

it.

>> Do you think communist is an effective

attack in 2026?

>> Well, all I know is that's the attack

that Trump is leading with, and I assume

they've tested it, and I assume that

they have reason to believe that it's

effective, or they wouldn't be

beating the drum on it, cuz now it's not

just him, Vance has done it, others are

doing it. They are trying to, you know,

bring back scare tactics uh about our

candidates, and

you know, it didn't work in New York. Uh

Mallam Fofana was elected, and there was

a lot of money spent against him. When

you have an effective uh candidate on

the left, it's still is going to be a

close race on our side. So, then how do

these candidates who win,

whether they're the, you know, candidate

that's the more conventional, so-called

moderate candidate, although really

moderate compared to what? Not compared

to Republicans, they're, you know, very

much

uh on the, you know, social justice uh

you know, redistribution side of the

ledger, but if they are going to have to

pivot to support the candidate on the

progressive left side, they're going to

need to feel they're welcome. They're

going to need to feel that, you know,

yeah, a lot of people like your son

voted for him, they liked the message,

but other people voted on different

grounds. I mean, you know, Israel played

a role in this election, as we know,

AIPAC played a role, as we know. So,

there's going to have to be um you know,

on both sides a an understanding, look,

we got to work together. We're not going

to beat Republicans by being divided.

>> What's the message against Rogers?

>> That he's a you know, he's a Trump

candidate, that he's going to show up

and he's going to you know, vote for the

Republican agenda, he's going to vote

for Trump, and how well has that worked

for you? I mean, even the people in

Michigan who voted for Trump

is that what they voted for. Did they

vote for the war in Iran? Did they vote

for corruption unlike we've ever seen

before? Did they vote for tearing down

the East Wing of the White House? I

mean, there's a long list. So,

>> There's a long list, right.

>> he he can't he doesn't have much

maneuver room or Trump will denounce

him, although Trump, you know, can't go

too far because he needs he wants him to

win,

but you know, Mike Rogers is not a you

know, clone of Trump, he's not

a certified cult member, so I think it

has to be a two-way attack.

Tin Trump on him, but also force him to

have to decide whether to separate from

Trump,

>> To be independent, right.

>> undermines Republican enthusiasm for

those who are, you know, the true

believers of Trump.

>> Right. Well, one of the ways they did it

as midterms approach, we're seeing an

impact of the redistricting wars, the

Democratic path to retaking the House

has narrowed according to the Cook

Political Report. Thanks to newly

redrawn maps across 10 states, the

number of competitive swing seats has

dropped from 87 to 77. Democrats need to

win at least 57 of those 77

uh seats to take back the house. And

meanwhile, Maryland Democrats are trying

to fight back. Lawmakers

put a constitutional amendment on the

ballot that could open the door to

redrawing the state's congressional

maps, but even if voters approve, the

new maps wouldn't take effect until

2028. So, talk a little bit about the

gerrymandering for the upcoming. You're

the first person who said, "I'm a little

worried." to me, and I'm I picked my

head up. Huh, that's interesting.

>> No, you know No, look, the Republicans,

you got to give them credit. They know

what they're doing. They They have to

uh try to narrow the electorate in order

to elect their candidates. And they're

they're purging voters, they're they're

waging all these lawsuits trying to get

a hold of voter rolls. Uh they are

trying to intimidate voters, they're

trying to undermine confidence in the

election. They know exactly what they're

doing. And one of their most effective

uh

strategies is what they've done with

gerrymandering and redistricting uh over

the last years. And

you know, Republicans have no

uh doubt about what's at stake. You

know, they they could care less about

good government. They could care less

about, you know, trying to figure out

how we

uh create an optimum uh environment for

even more people to vote and feel their

vote was counted. That's not what

they're interested in. They're

interested in winning, holding power,

and then uh inflicting their values on

all the rest of us. So, the Democrats

for years, and you know, there was a big

movement. We wanted to go to nonpartisan

uh redistricting. We wanted to make sure

that, you know, people felt that they

could vote in primaries or do what's

called jungle voting, so they could vote

for both Democrats or Republicans at the

same time. We did all of this in the

name of good government, expanding the

electorate, all the right things.

Meanwhile, the Republicans on the other

side uh of the aisle were doing

everything they could to uh create a map

that they would dominate and they they

did [clears throat] it. So, it wasn't

enough for them what they'd already

done. Then Trump went looking for more

votes cuz he knew that the midterms

would likely be bad for him. So, that's

when he called, you know, Abbott in

Texas and, you know,

I'm really happy that Gavin Newsom was

one of the first to say we're fighting

back. We're not going to sit here and be

treated like chumps. You know, we're for

good government, you're for power and

you're going to dominate us for the

foreseeable future. We're not going to

live in that world.

So, we have fought them to sort of a

draw, but they ended up with an

advantage and there were a couple of

states that resisted Trump until he

literally

uh picked candidates to beat the state

legislators who thought it wasn't the

right thing to do. So, they are still on

the march uh to do everything they can

to advantage themselves.

Our, you know, effort in Maryland fell

short because a Democratic uh I think

speaker of the house or Senate pro tem

leader was against it. So, he Wes Moore

couldn't get it out of uh the

legislature. So, he's trying to take it

to a vote of the people. We saw what

happened in Virginia where they went to

the extraordinary lengths of getting a

uh a new map that they submitted to the

voters. You didn't see Abbott doing that

in Texas. They just drew the lines and,

you know, told people to fall in line.

And so, uh when Virginia was overturned,

that would have given us if it hadn't

been overturned on what I thought was a

kind of a uh procedural uh

you know, uh red herring, but they did

it. So,

uh we lost those potential seats. So,

this is going to be a real fight. Most

people think it's going to be a slam

dunk. I I well, I'm I'm always I'm

always worried. I think we will still

win, but I don't know how big our margin

will be. Which needs to be the margin's

important. It does. It does. It needs to

be big enough to accommodate our big

tent and also to drive an agenda

in the house and

I I still think like I say I still think

we're going to win. I still think that

you know the efforts that were made for

us to fight back you know did give us

some advantage.

I think maybe we'll even see some

surprises in the Texas redistricting

because I'm not sure they did as good a

job redistricting because of the way

they cut up black districts. But then

along comes the Supreme Court decision

getting the Voting Rights Act and so all

of a sudden that gave states that wanted

to limit black representation another

bite at the apple so to speak.

>> Yeah, but it didn't work in Missouri.

>> But it worked in Louisiana

and it worked probably in Alabama and so

you know that so they never stop. I

guess my point is they're not interested

in free and fair elections.

>> Yeah, so very [clears throat] briefly

for the Senate most people think they

the Democrats will not take the Senate

but what is your prediction?

>> I I think we still have a

a 50/50 shot. I mean it really comes

down to Michigan and Maine.

Can the new candidate in Maine beat

Susan Collins?

You know she has a remarkable staying

power in Maine.

>> Speaking of carbuncles. Yeah.

>> I mean the yeah barnacle.

>> The the you know Maine voters have voted

for her while they voted for Democratic

presidents, Democratic governors and

Democratic members of Congress. So

he you know he seems to be you know

really vigorously

trying and unlike the you know the

problems that we had with the first

candidate he seems to be in

I hope the the stretch to you know be

able to compete all the way no no

surprises.

And then back to Michigan

um

we'll see. We'll see whether uh

And and it's the best year for somebody

like El Sayid to be running. It's the

best year because, you know, Trump is so

unpopular. It's His popularity, I think,

is down to 33%. So, he will have the

advantage running against a Republican

when Republican and the Republican brand

is not in in good standing.

>> Especially with the war war dragging on,

especially, yeah.

>> Yeah, and and there and and a lot of

people I talked to about Iran, Cara, say

that

we're not going to be out of it by the

election. It's going to linger uh over

this country and cause problems in the

economy. And just about any way Trump

now tries to get out of it, he's going

to look like a loser, which I think our

candidates can then add to their

messaging against Republicans.

>> Yeah. All right, Manafort Shkreli, let's

go on a quick break. When we come back,

Todd Blanche gets closer to becoming

Trump's new attorney general.

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>> Madam Secretary, we're back with more

news. Senate Republicans advanced Todd

Blanche's nomination for Attorney

General after he committed

to killing Trump's anti-weaponization

fund. Republican Senators John Cornyn

and Thom Tillis dropped their opposition

after Blanche put in writing the fund

would not move forward. Democrats argue

the changes aren't legally enforceable

and warn the fund could be revived in

the future. Senate Judiciary Committee

voted 12 to 10 along party lines to send

Blanche's nomination to the full Senate

where Republicans hold 53 seats.

However, sent with Senator Mitch

McConnell expected to miss the vote

Blanche can afford to lose only two

Republican Senators and Susan Collins

has already said she'll vote no.

And great news, Blanche told faith

leaders that he was planning to roll

back abortion access. That's not great

news for women even in states that have

laws protecting it making Dobbs

permanent in every state. Um how much do

you think the Justice Department changes

under Blanche compared to last several

months? And how likely is the

anti-weaponization fund resurfacing in

another form? Now, a lot of people say

if you didn't get Blanche, you just keep

him there as acting and what's the

difference? Or I'll put someone worse

in. Um thoughts? Although it's you know,

it's gone from bad to worse from Pam

Bondi.

>> Well, look. I think I think Todd Blanche

has proven himself to be

a total sycophant

in every way. I mean, he had a

a

fairly robust legal career before he

began representing Trump. And he is all

in. He's not the Attorney General of the

United States. He is the personal lawyer

of Donald Trump presiding over the

Department of Justice. And what they

>> out by accident. And that's the greatest

slip of all time.

>> I know. And what they've done to the

Justice Department, I don't think most

people who are not lawyers or don't

follow this closely realize what the

perversion of justice means. You know,

I've heard you and Scott talking about

what are the the real pillars of the

American success, our political success,

but especially our economic success

over, you know, 250 years. Well, part of

that was, you know, look, with

exceptions,

a rule of law, a justice department that

we thought was, you know, mostly on the

level. Uh

a a legal system with judges who were

more interested in following the law

than currying favor uh

to the president who appointed uh them.

That is a key to whether or not we have

a confidence in our economic system as

well as our political system. So,

what they've done to destroy confidence

in the justice system has far-reaching

implications. It's not just about Trump

trying to get immunity from having his

taxes

uh ever audited. You know, I've been in

politics for a long time. I've been

audited more times than I can remember.

You know what? That's part of the way

that you show that there's nothing to

hide and you show that you have

confidence in our uh legal system. Trump

doesn't want to be accountable to

anybody, and he now has an attorney

general who is a, you know, absolute

implementer of whatever grunt or

grievance uh that, you know, Trump uh

puts forth. And I think I think Todd

Blanche is extremely dangerous. And the

idea that you would say what he said

about abortion, when allegedly the Dobbs

decision was to put it back in the

states, that was never their final goal.

They always intended to go from

returning it to the states to try to

prevent the states, like Kansas, a

surprising red state that consistently

votes to keep abortion out of politics,

to give women the choice to make what is

best for them and their families.

They don't want that. They they want a

uniform national set of you know

criminal penalties and rules and Todd

Blanche is going to deliver for them the

best he can. How can he do that? I don't

know. I don't know what he means by

that. I think what he means is they're

going to try to

>> With the pills with the cuz abortions

are up numbers of abortions are up.

>> the irony. If you really wanted

abortions to fall which I've been

working for since the 90s. I've been

working to decrease teen pregnancy

working to you know make abortions not

necessary by providing you know

contraception to people at an affordable

way so that they could you know make

decisions when they felt ready to make

decisions doing more education so that

people particularly young people knew

what was at stake. I mean there's a lot

of things you could do.

But if you're going to treat women like

they're disposable commodities and they

should be barefoot and in the kitchen,

you're going to get more abortions.

Because and they're going to be either

legal abortions in the states where they

are still

available or they're going to be back

alley abortions and anybody who has

studied history or knows anything about

this understands it.

>> Right. So do you think he could bring he

could bring back the anti-weaponization

fund or or

>> Well, there's something he seems to

stick in Trump's craw quite a bit.

>> Well, I I think they will try to

re-imagine

the weaponization fund and call it

something else and bring it back because

Trump wants to reward his

insurgents particularly from January

6th, but you know others who have stuck

with him despite

all the evidence to the contrary.

They want to

finalize this immunity from

auditing which I don't see how they can

do that and I think that can be

reversed. So I think he's going to he

has a checklist. He has the Trump

checklist. He's going to go down it.

>> Right. Would you apply for the

anti-weaponization

fund?

>> [laughter]

>> Well, I don't think I'd be eligible

under their definition. [snorts]

>> Oh, really?

>> I would I would you know, certainly uh

you know, uh consider it if they're

going to take care of you know, the the

crazies on the right who tried to upset

our election and were beating police

officers, which is absolutely

disgraceful.

>> So, do you but do you do you think he'll

drop this? There's only a limited time

he has.

>> I think they're waiting to see what

happens in the mid-term. I think a lot

of this will wait till after the

mid-terms and

I think it's going to be

likely that Trump is even more out of

control after the mid-terms. And let's

let's assume from my perspective the

best happens.

We take back the house, we take back the

Senate.

He's not going to

work with them.

Uh he's going to do everything he can to

undermine them. Uh he's he's going to

instruct people who work for him not to

respond to inquiries or even subpoenas.

He's going to be in a big standoff with

the Congress.

And he's going to be using executive

orders and whatever power he has from

the presidency to pursue his agenda.

I think he'll be pardoning a lot more

corrupt people. You know, you look at

the list of the pardons that he's given,

it's a total transactional exchange. You

or somebody on your behalf gives me

money. I don't care if you've cheated

you know, elderly people in nursing

homes, which one of the people that he

pardoned did,

uh to great cost to them and you owe

them billions of dollars in uh

compensation. I'm going to I'm going to

take the money and just erase that. And

I think a Democrat Democrats can run

against some of those pardons. Most

people have no idea uh what uh he has

done.

>> What he's given out and what he's given

out, yeah.

>> taken for it. I mean, the amount of

money that he's taken for it.

>> Right. No, it is coin operated.

>> It is coin-operated.

>> It is coin-operated. So,

so do you use some

hypo whatever? Like stick any money in.

Or you get a you give money and you get

a get a um

contract with the government. That

that's the other

>> fix the reflecting pool. Whatever it is.

>> Right, yeah. Yeah. I bet you could fix

the reflecting pool. Anyway,

speaking of water

>> I know where to go to get the right

people. Yeah.

>> It's true. You know a pool guy, right?

>> Yeah, I do.

>> I know a pool guy. Um as we record this,

but speaking of water, the US US and

Iran are reportedly closing in on an

interim agreement to reopen the Strait

of Hormuz. I think I feel like it's

Groundhog Day here. We've heard that

before. Similar deals and arrangements

have been made only to collapse when

attacks resumed. Trump said Tuesday

night that a lot of progress has been

made, though. That came a day after he

warned Iran could face decapitation if

it failed to reach a deal all which he

said before he's going to bomb them back

to last Sunday or whatever. We're now in

the 6 months of

of this war that was supposed to last

for a couple of weeks. Talk a little bit

about this. And I'm going to make you

repeat something I've had you repeat

several times, but what do you think is

happening here? And do you have any

confidence in this latest deal?

>> Well, I I I don't have any confidence

that it's a good deal, but it may be the

best deal Trump can get because he

doesn't

uh really understand. I mean, he he

approved of a

ceasefire agreement a few months ago

that was a terrible deal for the United

States and the region and international

shipping and you know,

the list goes on. So, he he really

doesn't understand uh what is happening

and and what the stakes can be. So, as I

understand this latest uh attempt at a

deal, it would result in fees being

charged to uh at least uh some category

of container ships going through the

Strait of Hormuz.

Uh it would be a a service fee. Now,

that has never been applied prior to

this ill-conceived war that Trump uh

embarked on. So, that's a definite loss.

The loss is that what used to be free,

free navigation,

uh a commercial, you know, sea lane that

was open to everybody is now going to be

an effect taxed by Oman and Iran. That's

the first loss. Second loss is

you know,

Iran still has ballistic missiles. It

still is producing uh deadly drones. It

is still attacking uh shipping uh and it

is still uh encouraging uh at least its

uh proxy, the Houthis, to attack and

they went so far as literally to attack

uh a ship in Egyptian waters. So, what

happened to the destruction of their

ability to launch ballistic missiles, to

launch deadly drones? That's a third

loss.

The leadership, yeah, he got rid of the

people who were at the top, but the

infrastructure

prevailed. So, you now have probably a

more militaristic

um

government uh structure that the, you

know, Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps

dominates and the clerics have been

somewhat weakened but are still useful

to keep the regime uh in place. So,

that's a third loss.

Um and I think the fourth loss is that a

lot of our allies have watched this in

total

confusion. I mean, the lack of strategy,

the lack of effective implementation,

the lack of results that were trumpeted

as uh what was going to be achieved. And

people are going to not just start, they

have started hedging their bets. I mean,

how are you going to look at the United

States, at least so long as Trump is

there,

with any kind of confidence at all? So,

I think it's it's a major loss, not just

for Trump, sadly, but for the United

States.

>> So, two things. If he called you and

said, "Hillary, I want you to get in

here and fix this for me." What would

you do? And secondly, you said something

and

you said Putin's in it in this way,

Netanyahu's in it in this way.

>> Yeah.

>> It's the law

>> the domain of loss. So, let me let me

talk about that first and then I'll

answer the question about if he were to

call me or

you know,

somebody were to ask me what to do that

had any authority. So, the domain of

loss is a psychological concept and it

applies to human behavior. When you

think you're losing,

and this is why casinos make so much

money and why gambling makes so much

money in general,

um

the likelihood is you will double down,

you know, until

something happens that you either run

out of money or you

are kicked out of the casino because you

can't pay your debts, whatever it might

be. Well, the domain of loss is a

concept that applies much more generally

to our behaviors and for leaders, it's

the

description of how they double down on

losing hands. So,

in today's world, Putin is doubling

down. He's going to inflict as much

punishment as he can on Ukraine because

they won't quit. They won't, you know,

lie down and die the way that he wants

them to.

Trump is going to continue to, you know,

rant and rave. He's going to go after

his enemies.

He's doubling He He keeps threatening to

double down on Iran. Maybe we'll get out

of this, maybe we won't. And the same

thing with Netanyahu. I mean, he's in

the domain of loss. So, he has to keep,

you know,

fighting in order to preserve his

political, in his mind, his political

chances. And it's a it's a psychological

description of behavior that I have

found very useful. So, let's say

somebody called us, how do we get out of

this? Well, I think you have to broaden

the decision makers. One of the problems

with Trump is he has a very narrow

band of people that he relies on to

negotiate everything. And you know,

after a while, that just doesn't work. I

mean, even if they were the most

accomplished negotiators,

diplomats, whatever, you know, it's the

same people you're sending everywhere.

It just doesn't make the impact and it

doesn't have the staying power that

patient diplomacy requires. So,

who has the most to gain from getting

the strait open, getting this war over?

Well, obviously, the Gulf

region does, but so does India and so

does

China and so does Japan. And you know,

people who depend upon oil that is

either coming from Iran or coming from

the region that needs to go through the

Strait of Hormuz. And I would have them

be playing a very active role in, you

know, basically persuading the Iranians

to back down from charging fees, which

is only going to make their costs go up

as oil is transported to them. I would

be looking for ways to try to get them

personally engaged with the Gulf so that

the Gulf

Arabs would be similarly sending that

message, you know, why are you raising

all of our costs? You know, this is not

good for us. It may be in the short

term, you know, a tactic, but it's not

going to be, a long-term strategy. So,

it would be to expand the base of people

that are interacting with Iran and to

make it clear that Iran has some, you

know, stake in getting this over getting

the straight open and being, you know,

open to negotiations on his nuclear

program, which I think is going to be

extremely hard. You know, I told you

once, Cara, I started the new the

nuclear negotiations back in 2011 after

we got a Security Council resolution

that imposed global sanctions on Iran,

which had never happened before. And

then, you know, I worked with the Gulf,

particularly with Oman, which is now a

major player in what happens uh going

forward. And we began secret

negotiations, very small uh group of uh

Americans and Iranians to test whether

they would be uh willing to negotiate

seriously about their nuclear uh

program. And you know, eventually we

ended up with an agreement. And you

know, people say, "Oh, it didn't go far

enough." Well, it's hard. You know,

doing negotiations is hard. And we've

seen the alternative. We've tried to

bomb their nuclear program out of

existence.

>> decapitated them.

>> We have not, you know, we've

decapitated, but we haven't ended uh the

uh regime or its ambitions.

>> Right. And it continues to be so. Um

would you What What do you think his

next move will be?

>> I think it depends upon his mood. I

mean, he is the most impulsive,

moodiest president. It depends upon how

he's feeling, how he's being treated,

what is being said about him.

You know, the Iranians have played him,

sadly, very effectively because every

time he says there's an agreement, they

say, "We're not negotiating. We're not

We We don't know what you're talking

about." So, if So, if he can be quiet

and try to figure out how to get a

better deal than it seems like the one

that is being offered could be,

maybe he can get himself out of this in,

you know, a couple of weeks. Otherwise,

it's going to be a ping-pong game.

You know, he's going to get upset, he's

going to attack, and we're running out

of munitions. We're running out out of

missiles.

And and and one of the great

tragedies of this unnecessary,

not well-planned war in Iran

is that we should have been

doing more to help Ukraine to defend

itself against Russia. They've run out

of Patriot missiles.

They can't defend against Russia's

missiles. Putin is, you know, just angry

and determined to just beat them into

submission, kill as many civilians as

possible. It's not going to break the

Ukrainians, but it's unnecessary,

terrible cost of human life.

>> Where we could have had a win there.

>> Literally, we could have helped the

Ukrainians end the Ukrainian war by

helping them defend themselves.

>> And he would have gotten the Nobel Peace

Prize.

>> I think, you know, I'm the one I said

this months ago. I said, "If he got an

honorable peace with Ukraine, they don't

have to give up any property, they can

go back to running their country." I'd

nominate him for the Peace Prize. But

he's more interested in his relationship

with Putin. I don't know all the reasons

for that, but you know, he wants Putin's

favor even more than he wants a Nobel

Peace Prize.

>> You would nominate him. Can Can you tell

them I don't know if you're willing to

tell this story, but that that picture

of you and Obama laughing, which is it's

the second meme that's taken off. What

precisely were you telling him right

then when you were laughing for people

to is so funny?

>> Well, you know, I was sitting behind him

at the opening of their, you know, very

impressive Obama Presidential Center in

Chicago, and I hope people get to go

visit. And come visit our Presidential

Center. I mean, Presidential Centers

really try to tell the history that

Trump and others don't want you to hear.

So, we were sitting there. I was sitting

behind him, and Michelle Obama was

giving this incredibly clever speech

touting all of

Barack's many accomplishments.

And then, you know, she got to and of

course you received a Nobel Peace Prize.

And I burst into laughter.

He started to giggle.

Um I poked him in the back and I said,

"Oh my god, I am sure Trump is watching

this. He is thinks he's now in the third

circle of hell." I mean, the way that

she just tweaked him about the Nobel

Peace Prize and he goes, "Yeah, I hope

he is."

>> [laughter]

>> It was great.

>> So, the two of you had that moment. Do

you like your little memes? Your little

Obama memes?

>> I do. I mean, it's fun for me because um

you know, I never know what might become

a meme.

I'm just out there living my life and

all of a sudden there's a meme.

Uh but the first meme was with me in

sunglasses looking at my Blackberry, I

think.

>> 100 years ago. Like you. That was

the you.

>> plane, yeah. And two young men did that

meme and I thought it was so funny I

invited them to the State Department so

that I could meet them so we could take

a picture. I said, "Here, we'll have a

real picture." So, yeah, I get a kick

out of it and it was fun.

>> of memes.

>> I have a lot of memes, yeah. Some are

good. Some are not so good, but you

know, it's kind of it it it's kind of

goes with you know, the life that I

lead.

>> Yeah, I like the one of Trump looming

behind you memes. That's what I like.

>> that was so bizarre. You know, people

>> still talk to me about that. I mean, I

literally

>> I wish you had turned around and said,

"What are you doing?"

>> Yeah, you know,

I've thought about that a hundred

thousand times, as you might guess. And

it was it it I was thinking about it in

real time cuz I he's looming over me and

and

>> Cuz he's tall. People don't really quite

get that.

>> and he's bulky and you know, he's got a

a big, you know, physical presence. And

so, I'm thinking to myself as I'm also

trying to answer questions, I'm

thinking, "Okay, if I turn on him and

say, 'What are you doing?' or 'Back

off,'

does that look like I can't handle him?

Does that look like I am rattled? Does

that look like I, you know, am a woman

who shouldn't be in the Oval Office?

If I ignore it, how does that, you know,

approach How do people feel that that is

communicating? So, I ignored it. I mean,

that was what I eventually decided to do

because I didn't want to look either

like I was being made to be nervous. I

think he was trying to actually provoke

something out of me.

>> Yeah, he was. Yeah.

>> He was. And I I wasn't going to give him

that, but in retrospect, there could

have been some, you know, great

>> pushback. Yeah. Good pushbacks. What the

you creep? Like

>> [laughter]

>> anyway.

>> Back off, you creep.

>> Back off, you creep. Um

all right, Madam Secretary, let's go to

a quick break. We'll be right back.

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today.

>> Okay, Madam Secretary, we're back. Big

picture question for you. What's the

biggest story that isn't getting enough

attention?

>> I think it's how we're going to govern

AI. I mean, there's attention being

given to it, Cara, but there's no real

action. You know, this government, other

governments are wringing their hands.

They know that we're heading into a

totally unknown world.

If I were able to wave a magic wand, I

would be having literally

a a huge diplomatic effort with experts

and, you know, really

uh other people from different parts of

the economy besides AI.

Literally working on treaties and

covenants and rules and standards and

basically bring the world together

against, you know, the tech companies

because, you know, there's no way to

deal with what is coming at us unless we

have some kind of global response. And

that's just not happening. I mean, there

are conversations, you know, the

tech

CEOs were in Washington yesterday

talking to Trump, but, you know, he

wants to take pieces of their equity. He

doesn't want to govern uh in any

effective way about what they're

producing other than things that might

be totally uh scary to national

security. But I I just feel like there

needs to be some

global effort to try to get ahead of

this in so far as possible.

>> Mhm. In so far as possible. So, this is

the story. I think data centers are the

proxy politically for people's worries

about it, you know.

>> you blame people? I mean, these big

hulking

concrete buildings that make all kinds

of noise and suck up water and

get put onto your grid and maybe raise

your prices. I mean, these questions

need to be looked at. I mean, I I was uh

approving of Kathy Hochul when she, you

know, put on a a a moratorium. Let's

figure out what this means before just,

you know, willy-nilly going ahead. So, I

think people's instincts were showing up

at city council and county commissions

and all kinds of political forums to

say, "No, we don't want this or at least

tell us what we're getting and and how

to make sure that it's not going to be

harmful. I think I think people have a

good instinct about this.

>> Yeah, a mayor of Lansing was telling me

he had a good deal and the people

wouldn't accept it cuz they're so angry

at it. You know, you can't even do a

good deal. It was

>> But I mean we we don't really does the

mayor of Lansing really know what a good

deal is? Wouldn't it be good if we took

a hard look at our very creaky grid and

said, here are things you have to do in

order to buttress the grid. I mean

>> It's a bigger It's bigger. Local people

shouldn't be stuck with bigger issues.

>> It It's too big and the issues are

national and even global.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um I yelled at Tony

Blinken at a dinner many years ago

saying we have to have global AI

standards and he just nodded and said

[laughter] yeah.

>> to global, right?

>> Global. I said it's global. It's a

global issue. All right, moving on. What

are the three most important qualities a

Democratic presidential candidate needs

to have in 2028?

>> That he or she can win the Electoral

College. That is the only quality and

because

we don't know what's going to appeal to

the electorate.

Uh will the Democratic primary voters

uh

want a relief after Trump, a

counterpoint to Trump? Will they want a

fighter, somebody who is just, you know,

fists up all the time? We don't know. So

seeing who gets through the Democratic

primary

uh is

>> It's just going to be a total rumble.

There's a lot of people

>> totally unpredictable. But then you got

to be able to win and it's from my

personal experience, you don't That

doesn't mean getting more votes, it

means winning the Electoral College and

that is hard for Democrats and

it's something that a lot of Democratic

primary voters are understandably not

thinking about. You know, I'm going to

vote for who I like, I'm going to vote

for who's expressing my anger, I'm going

to vote for, you know, the person that,

you know, I think uh be the best

fighter. All of that's great. But

somewhere in the back of your mind you

need to can this person win the

electoral college? And at the end of the

day, if we're going to win, that's what

matters.

>> That's what That's all that will matter.

It doesn't matter if it's a man or a

woman or

>> No. No. But I I don't think we should be

preemptively

disqualifying anybody. Let everybody get

out and compete and see

who emerges. And

and I hope it's somebody who can be a

good president, not just win,

uh but can also going into office be

prepared like we were talking about

earlier.

>> up.

>> Clean up. Fix things. You know,

there's going to be so much to fix. I

mean, first you know, get rid of all of

the holdovers. Do not let anybody hang

around in some small office somewhere

who can literally subvert your

program and you don't even know that

person's there. And I will predict that

you know, Trump and his minions are

going to try to you know,

>> Put people.

>> They're going to try to move um people

from political appointments to so-called

civil service appointments, although

they're trying to destroy the civil

service. So people are going to have to

be really searching

uh to make sure that they are not going

to be literally subverted from within

the government.

>> From That's a really good point. That's

a really smart point. Um is there very

quickly is there any Republican

candidate you're looking at that you

think is trouble?

>> No, I mean obviously everybody's talking

about, you know, Vance and and Rubio. I

I don't know, but I think there'll be a

lot of Republicans running.

The real question is

what will Trump do to try to hold on to

power?

Will he stay you know, he he when he

goes around putting that

you know, third term hat on,

you always have to

take Trump at his tell. You know,

[clears throat] this is a tell. He would

love to serve a third term.

Or at least he'd love to have the power

of a third term. If he can install

somebody

as the, you know

>> That's a good point. Yeah.

>> president that he controls and

so who's he going to pick? Who's he

going to be

behind and

is he looking for an opportunity to try

to amend that election? You know, he's

acted like he didn't care about the

midterms but he has $400 million sitting

in a super PAC.

>> Right. And he's got Elon Musk.

>> like Elon and others have said they're

going to spend whatever it takes to try

to prevent the Democrats from winning in

the midterm.

Uh so is he

going to be very active, spend a lot of

money to try to

prevent the Democrats from winning or

keep their margin at a very you know

small number and then

just basically do everything it can to

undermine them. Um

is he going to want the contrast of a

Democratic Congress that he can play off

against? I mean, I don't know what their

game theory is about the upcoming

elections but I do know he doesn't want

to give up power. So what is he going to

do? Is it a proxy?

Is it him? Does he figure out some

bizarre way to get Todd Blanche, the

attorney general, to decide with him?

The

five of the Supreme Court justices that

are

you know, movement conservatives decide

with him. Who knows? But I think we have

to watch all of that.

>> means you know, Obama can run again.

>> They'll come

You could

>> Well, that's what we've been joking. We

say, "Okay, so Obama can go for a third

term." My husband go for a third term. I

mean, you know, okay, if you're going to

go for third terms, let's let's look at

everybody who's eligible.

>> do it.

>> [laughter]

>> Obama he would like lose his mind. He

would lose his mind although it would be

an amusing in a different universe. All

right, we're going to do a few rapid

fire questions for you that are more fun

for you. All right, what TV show are you

watching right now?

>> Well, I'm about to watch the new season

of Ted Lasso.

So, I love Ted Lasso and Jason,

uh, Sudeikis and

uh, Hannah Waddingham. Waddingham. It's

Waddingham actually. And cast members

were at the Liberty game when I was

there because this season

he is convinced to coach a woman's a

woman's team. So, I am really excited

about I think it starts tonight or

tomorrow. I mean, it it's going to going

to be a lot of fun. And we need we need

some

you know, some positive good feeling

going on again.

>> Yeah. He's there a lot, Jason. I I ran

into him at the Liberty game. Yeah, he's

always there. He's a big

>> conversation with him. He's really

excited about this season. He he said

>> Hannah, did you see Rider Die? It kind

of reminds me of you, Hillary.

>> I don't know. She is amazing.

>> Yes, she is.

She's a tall drink of water. This is my

favorite

>> is a tall drink of water, but she is so

much fun. She has a great sense of

humor.

>> It watch Rider Die.

>> Okay, I got Rider Die. I'm writing it

down.

>> Rider Die, you'll love it. It's so

funny. I finished it last night. All

right, you're the grandmother of three.

What do your grandkids call you and

what's your favorite thing you do with

them? I see you're wearing a necklace

with your granddaughter's name,

actually.

>> Yeah, well, I also my grandsons. All

three of them are on this this little

necklace. Um, they call me Grandma.

And I just like doing anything with

them. I like

you know, hanging out with them. I like

swimming. I like hiking. I like watching

funny television shows with them or

whatever they're interested in. I like

reading with them. I mean, literally

anytime I get to spend with them is, you

know, just a delight for me. It's It It

It It is the only experience in life

that is not, uh, overrated. It is really

worth waiting for.

>> Do Do they know who you are? Do they

know Do they have a sense of who you

are?

>> I I think, you know, they they I

remember, um,

my grandson found a book in his school

library that was about me, one of these

little paperback books about my life.

And he checked it out and he brought it

home and he said, "You have a book about

you." So, I [laughter] think I think

they know that their grandfather was

president. I think they know, you know,

that I was in, you know, a senator and

secretary of state. I I'm not sure they

fully grasp it, but they find it, you

know, somewhat

confounding. Like, how how when did this

happen to you? What did you do?

>> Right, absolutely. I think Bowen Yang is

the latest artist to step into the role

of Mary Todd Lincoln. Speaking of

>> She'd be good at that role.

>> Yeah, in O Mary, if asked, would you

serve?

>> No.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah.

No.

Yeah, okay.

>> I mean, the amount of physical comedy

that Mary does,

um, wow. It yeah, I'd have to work out

for a year in order to get there.

>> Okay, well, you're looking good, by the

way.

I always play play myself on TV and

movies, but you've had a lot of people

portray you over the years. Well, who's

your favorite Hillary Clinton?

>> I really don't have one, you know,

because I try not to watch them. So,

I've never seen anybody portray me.

>> No, so you don't have a favorite. I

guess it would be Kate McKinnon, right?

Because you did appear with her.

>> Well, you know, to be

I was thinking of the more dramatic

presentations. I I I loved I loved Kate

McKinnon. I I I love her as a person and

I thought she did a great job as me.

>> So, you don't watch any other Hillary

Clintons. I couldn't resist.

>> I don't.

>> One of the Murdochs told me he didn't

watch Succession. I wouldn't believe

him.

I don't believe him.

>> I bet they did, or else they had

somebody watching summarize it for them.

>> So, you didn't watch any of them.

There's a lot I've watched all your

Hillary Clintons. I have to tell you.

>> Well, so who's your favorite Hillary

Clinton?

>> Emma Thompson. It's not my favorite

movie, but it's I thought Emma Thompson

was good.

>> a terrific actress.

>> Yeah, I would say she did a good job.

She sort of issued that's

>> I'll put that on the list for, you

[clears throat] know, I'll watch it I'll

watch it in the next decade of my life.

>> Can I watch it with you? No, it'd be

awkward.

>> out. I like popcorn. Little bit of

butter, not too much.

>> Okay, so let's go with Kate McKinnon on

that one. All right, Madam Secretary,

one more quick break. We'll be back for

predictions. Okay, we're back. Do you

have a prediction for us?

>> Yes, I do predict that we will take uh

back the house. I predict that, even

with all of the obstacles.

And I predict we have a slightly better

than 50/50 chance to take back the

Senate, even with all of the obstacles.

>> All right, that's a good prediction. I'm

going to make a very brief prediction.

Um David Ellison um

wrote an op-ed in The New York Times

saying Democratic state AGs are fighting

in court because of false perception

about his politics. I don't really care.

I don't like the essay very much. But um

the antitrust trial is what he wanted to

start in November and Paramount did. The

judge set for March. I think there's

going to be a settlement. There has to

be it. This this is economics or

economics.

>> be in the settlement? Do you have any

thoughts on that?

>> know. I don't know. It depends on I

think Bonta is Rob Bonta has played this

rather well and will probably be

governor of California at some point. I

mean, I think I think he's done.

>> been a good attorney general and I he

has I like I like him.

>> I think he surprised them. I thought

they were arrogant and I think um I

don't know, maybe spinning off the cable

networks, spinning off CNN. It's hard

because if they get rid of CNN, there's

a the big they make a lot of money from

CNN right now.

>> Really? They make money from CNN?

>> They do. $700 million.

It's a profitable. So, they need the

money because of the 800 $80 billion in

debt. It's a real financial

even as people as rich as the Allisons,

they're going to have to give up a lot

of money to own something that they may

not want to own. So,

>> So, you think there'll be a settlement

between now and the start of a trial in

March?

>> Yeah, wouldn't you? You're a lawyer.

>> Well, what would you do? I I think

doesn't he have a breakup fee or a delay

fee a delay fee?

>> Yeah, there's a delay fee and a breakup

fee.

>> Yeah, the delay fee

I think the delay fee starts in October.

So, I mean, he's going to be paying a

lot of money because he can't close the

deal. So, there may be economic reasons.

>> Yeah, it's $1.2 billion by the trial

itself. And then there's a $7.7 billion

dollar gippy. But that's not a lot of

money to them, but it is it is a lot of

money given Oracle stock is declined

rather precipitously and there may be an

as you noted an AI shakeout.

So we'll see. That's I think they're

going to say after the sale.

>> I am worried about the AI you know,

shake up. I'm worried about the debt.

I'm worried about all of that which is

kind of why I want to see some

legitimate effort taken to kind of

figure out how to normalize or

regularize this market before

>> to like it. Cuz the polling is terrible.

The polling is just bad.

>> You know, they're scared they're going

to lose their jobs. They're they're

scared that it's going to take over the

world. I mean

so either people are just going to live

with this fear and we're going to just

go

full speed ahead into whatever

the future is or we're going to try to

at least have a process that might make

a difference.

>> Yeah, there could be a real stock

decline which will hurt everybody. Which

and of course probably hurt Trump more

than anybody if you think about it

because he's sort of put his a lot in

with AI in a way that's feels corrupt, I

guess.

>> Well, I think you know, you mentioned

the data centers and one of the

candidates well, my my friend

um you know, Sherrod Brown who's running

in Ohio, he's now calling his opponent

the face of data centers in Ohio because

he's been all in on data centers. So the

political issues are going to get played

out one way or the other. But at the end

of the day, we still need some kind of

governance mechanisms.

>> That is correct.

>> Evaluation of the upsides and downsides,

some restraint on what they can and

should do or not. So that's that's my

hope.

>> Such common sense, Hillary Clinton.

>> Oh, I know. I'm so out of date.

I'm I'm so old fashioned. I mean truly,

really that

I'm just so a walking anachronism, you

know? I believe in all of these things

that I still think would work if people

actually

paid attention.

>> Yeah, well Hillary, it's time for you to

start to speak up more. As you know, I

think that. Anyway,

we all we need all the good ideas we can

get in this country going forward, I

think.

>> Well, we're

we're both going to have to get out

there and and

talk as much common sense as we can.

>> No one's putting No one's putting

Hillary in the corner. I say.

>> Not me.

>> [laughter]

>> No way. Anyway, you've been wonderful. I

really appreciate it. But I just want to

know it We want to hear from you

listeners how you like this. Send us

your questions about business, tech, or

whatever's on your mind. Go to

nymag.com/pivot

to send me a question for the show or

call 855-51-pivot.

Okay, that's the show. Thanks for

listening to Pivots and Scott Free

August. Hillary, I think you've done an

amazing job. Be sure to like and

subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll

be back next week. And again, thank you

so much for joining us, Madam Secretary.

>> Thank you. Thank you so much, Kara.