There are worship groups that worship AI

because it's got some of the qualities

we normally associate with God. And some

people welcome this and say this is the

way we should go. But the danger is we

treat these human robots as if they're

conscious beings. This is a seriously

important thing and I do feel that the

Christian faith has a great deal to say

about this

>> and it's fascinating to me that you are

very religious. You believe in God

because typically I think that

mathematicians lean more towards

atheism. The great pioneers of modern

science were all believers in God. And

I've interrogated myself about its truth

for over 70 years. I've made myself

totally vulnerable. And I found that

Christ offers me something nobody else

offers me. Peace in my heart. The peace

of knowing that I have real forgiveness.

Things like for example, God has met

people even in death row. And I never

forget looking through the door for

Russian security death row. I went up to

the door and a chap came over and looked

at me. He killed 12 women and he said,

"I deserve to be here." And then his

face just bursted into what I can only

describe as a ghastly smile. And he

said, "I met Jesus here and he forgave

me."

>> So on this point of forgiveness with the

serial killer be forgiven and allowed

into heaven and then how do you know

that this thing you've committed

yourself to is true? So I have had

several experiences enough to tell me

look this stuff is real. Okay. So

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>> John Lennox.

>> Yes.

>> You've published over 70 peer-reviewed

mathematical papers, co-authored two

research texts at the um Oxford

Mathematical Monograph series, and

you've really become a pioneer in many

domains through your career. But for

anyone that doesn't know you, what is

the most important context they need to

understand the reference points,

experience, education that you're

pulling on that that is going to inform

all of the subjects we talk about today?

>> I mean, I've written a number of papers.

I got a certain amount of international

recognition. I chaired Oxford and all

the rest of it. But I think the real

value of that has been the training and

logic really saying that mathematics

works. The fact that it works is for me

one of the strongest evidences that this

is what I call a word-based universe. We

can use mathematics to describe things

about how the universe works. Thinking

God's thoughts after him, Kepler's

famous statement. But also we've lived

to see a biological revolution where we

discover biology is word-based as well

with the human genome. And that to me

resonates

with the explanation given in both the

old testament and the new language of

John's gospel. In the beginning was the

word.

>> I um I don't know a ton about the bible.

I do come from a religious family. So do

with um right

>> we grew up as Christians. I think I I

lost my faith faith at about 18 years

old cuz you know me and my my brothers

are extremely good at maths. They're

very

rational thinking maybe to a fault and I

think maybe I am a little bit too.

>> I am too.

>> You are. This is why I find it so

fascinating cuz you know typically the

scientific community lean more towards

atheism and typically I think that

mathematicians lean more towards

atheism. Just to sense check if that's

true or not, we'll throw the numbers up

on the screen. So I I find that to be a

fascinating conversation which I'm

looking forward to have with you today.

>> Interestingly, you wrote this book and

the word AI is on it. It says God, AI,

and the end of history. Why are you so

concerned, dare I say, about artificial

intelligence as a leading pioneer in ma

maths and sort of philosophical

thinking? Well, because I'm interested

in the bigger picture, anything that

raises questions about

the nature of human identity. And I was

first struck by the drive for artificial

general intelligence. It's really become

one of the it looks as if it's the prime

motivation of people like Sam Alman and

so on. It is really hitting the

headlines. But within that there's the

notion of transhumanism.

>> What does that mean?

>> The idea is that we go beyond the human.

One of our most famous astronomers,

Royal, he put it this way. He says in

the distant future, it won't be organic

brains, it'll be machine brains. And he

seriously believes, as do a number of

scientists who are not science fiction

authors, that there will be some kind of

merger between humanity and machines to

have a transhuman, something that's

beyond the human and something that is,

they hope, super intelligent, got all

the human properties and much more. Now,

one of the people who is spreading that

kind of transhumanist vision is the

Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hari. And

he's written a book called Homodos, the

man God. And that really made me prick

up my ears because I know enough about

this book here, the Bible, to realize

that the drive for humans towards

selfdeification

is

>> selfdeification. Yes, making themselves

gods. And you see it all through

history. The ancient Babylonian emperors

were regarded as gods. The Roman

emperors started calling themselves gods

and all the rest of it. And what Harari

says is the 21st century has two big

purposes. Number one, to solve the

problem of physical death as a technical

problem

>> to solve death.

>> Yes. Solve death. Physical death is in

his view technical problem and we'll

solve it. The second agenda item and he

calls them agenda items of the 21st

century is to increase human happiness

by bioengineering,

cyborg engineering, mechanical implants,

all this kind of thing and turning

humans quote into gods with a small G.

In other words, this is the drive for a

super intelligent human. We've only got

started. And his point is, and from his

atheist perspective, one can understand

it immediately. Evolution, unguided

natural processes have brought us to

this point. Now, we're going to take it

into our hands and we're going to

engineer humanity into the future very

rapidly to approach this superhuman

thing. Now I hear that and I see that

but I see that as huge implications

for one of the fundamental teachings

that's behind I would argue western

civilization

and that is the notion that humans like

us are made in the image of God as

rational moral beings. Now, I got into

this because some Christian leaders

wanted to have a conference on AI and

they wanted it introduced from someone

who knew something about the teaching of

the image of God in Genesis and who had

a scientific background and who could

perhaps begin to lead them in to what

was going on in the AI field around. And

once I got into it, I realized this is a

seriously important thing because

we haven't got to artificial general

intelligence yet. That's still a pipe

dream, but it's improving all the time,

but we've got far enough. that is to

what's called narrow AGI which most of

the stuff that works is

and that is posing a threat to human

beings at all kinds of levels and I

began to see that that was seriously

important for everybody to take on

board. So I wrote two books, one 2020

called uh 2084 is the title of my book,

artificial intelligence and the future

of humanity and then the publishers

asked me to update it in 2024. So

there's a second edition twice as big

and it is my main work on AI. That is

not that is a work on the book of

revelation with reference to AI. The

other is directly going into AI,

pointing out its values which I think

are immense particularly in medicine but

pointing out its dangers which I think

are immense for bringing about a state

in the world that none of us I think

want.

>> So let me just give some definitions

then.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> You use the term narrow AI.

>> Yes. Um, my definition of that is, and

I'll put something on the screen for

those of you watching, is AI that's

focused on solving a very particular

problem. So, AIs that might be able to

diagnose lung cancer or that do some

sort of um biometric data on your Apple

Watch, very focused on solving a

particular problem. AGI is artificial

general intelligence which is what's

being built at the moment and all the

big AI companies are in a race to

accomplish which is a machine that could

do any intellectual task a human can

faster than any human um and would be

super intelligent. So you know maybe one

way to think about it it would have a

PhD in everything

that's a very fair summary. narrow AI

system does one and only one thing that

normally requires human intelligence.

AGI does the lot and more. You wrote

this book 2084. You highlighted in there

some of the concerns that you think are

being overlooked in this race for AGI at

the moment.

>> Well, they're not overlooked by

everybody. There is huge concern.

There's been a very interesting book

published not long ago by Karen How. Oh,

she was young. She's fantastic.

>> Well, there you are. And she has got

some very interesting metaphors, the

pursuit of the machine God, which I

think is a brilliant summary of what's

going on. And I found it very

illuminating because she's obviously got

very close to the the major operators in

this. But if I step back from it, I look

at AI like a knife. A good knife. You

can use it for surgery or you can use it

for murder.

And that leads us into it immediately.

AI narrow brilliant for picking out a

terrorist in a football crowd. Also

brilliant for suppressing a minority in

China and bringing in a totalitarian

state through social credit systems and

all the rest of it. And in a way, we're

sleepwalking into a future where we are

gradually seeding control and

information and data all the time which

could be used by bad actors against us.

And this is the problem.

>> I I really this question of um what it

means to be human in a world of AI, I

think has been really front of mind for

a lot of people. like where do we live

or exist or find our purpose in a world

where theoretically these super

intelligent systems will reach AGI which

means they're more intelligent

theoretically than any human on Earth

but at the same time you've got these

other um advancements in technology like

humanoid robots

>> where these humanoid robots there was a

live stream I've talked about a few

times and I'll just throw it up on the

screen really quickly that shows last

week a humanoid robot working on a

production line for eight days straight

and they show it up against a human

being and it beats the human being on

the production line because it doesn't

need to sleep. It just needs to be

charged for a couple of hours to full

power. And so you combine these two

forces, super intelligence and the

disruption, you know, you can think of

it like one is disrupting

this thing here, the brain and the

intelligence within the brain. And then

the other technology that's emerged at

the same time is disrupting

my muscles and my mechanics and the two

come together to make voila.

>> Absolutely. So you face joblessness at

all kinds of levels and people are only

going beginning to realize the

implications of that and they're not

just low-level repetitive jobs as high

level jobs like lawyers and there's a

deepseated

ethical problem running through all of

this and it's a very simple one. It's

that technology advances much faster

than the ethics that's needed to

underpin it.

And the difficulty is the people that

have all the power will say, "Well, we

need some ethical control of all of

this, but we need to get on with the

research to make it safe for you. So,

let us get on with it." And you can be a

bit skeptical about the motivation

there. It's a colossal power grab. And I

do feel that

uh the Christian faith has a great deal

to say to this arms race if you like the

power that is being forced in to having

a technology that becomes the ultimate

source of truth. Now those two concepts

power and truth clashed centuries ago in

a very famous trial and it's the trial

of Jesus. And I used to wonder a lot,

you know, why is there such detail about

the trial of Jesus until I realized what

it was about? Jesus was put on trial for

political terrorism to put it in modern

terminology. He was a threat to the

Roman power base. And Pilate, the

governor at the time, put him on trial

and conducted the trial himself, which

was most unusual, and said, "Are you a

king?" And Jesus looked at him and said,

"Well, not in the sense you mean. To

this end I was born, and to this end I

came into the world that I would bear

witness to the truth." And Pilate

famously responded, "What is truth?" and

went out and declared Jesus innocent of

the charge. And then he said to him just

a bit later, "Don't you know I have

power to crucify you?" And Jesus quietly

said, "You would have no power against

me unless it been given to you from

above." So there's one of the most

famous confrontations between power and

truth. And that statement that Jesus

made, I have come to bear witness to the

truth. I regard that as the main

motivation for my life. I'm trying to

bear witness to truth as I see it at all

kinds of levels in my own limited way.

And that's what bothers me about AI.

It's a reductionist. We're reducing

people to machines. And you said to me a

few moments ago that flagged up a thing

in my mind that's very important. We

need to be very clear what AI is and

what it isn't. This is a machine.

Machines do not think. Machines do not

have quailia. They do not understand the

redness of red. They do not experience

emotion. They have no consciousness.

And you see, I believe that the genius

of God is that he's made you and me and

he's connected in us consciousness and

intelligence.

The machines are not conscious, but they

simulate intelligence. And the experts

are very clear that they're not trying

to construct intelligence for a very

simple reason. They have no idea what

consciousness is from a scientific point

of view, but they're trying to simulate

intelligence and go as far as they can.

And therefore, the danger is we

anthropomorphize everything. We treat

them as if they're conscious beings. And

we need to step back and realize that we

are conscious beings. And that gives us

a supreme dignity and value to reduce

ourselves to merely machines or on the

other hand merely animals is to demean

our value. And then where are you going

to get value from?

>> I've got a quote here that's um linked

to what you just said. It's from Uvel

Noah Harrari who you mentioned. He says,

"Humans are now hackable animals."

>> Yes.

>> The whole idea that humans have this

soul or spirit and they have free will

and nobody knows what's happening inside

them, that is over. And Sam Alolman

said, "The most successful founders do

not set out to create companies. They

are on a mission to create something

closer to a religion. And at some point,

it turns out that forming a company is

the easiest way to do so." And lastly, a

former Google engineer said, "What is

going to be created will effectively be

a god. It's not a god in the sense that

it will will make lightning or cause

hurricanes, but if there is something a

billion times smarter than the smartest

human, what else can you call it?"

>> It's odd. Thank you for quoting that

because I was going to quote it to you.

the the Saballet's point about about

making a religion and that is what is

happening and people have pointed out

the obvious here you have a system even

now that has got some of the qualities

we normally associate with God it

appears to be omnisient you can ask it

any question it is omniresent through

the internet etc etc and therefore

already there are worship groups to

worship AI high. And some people welcome

this and say, "Well, this is the way we

should go." And other people say, "Just

wait a moment. There's something very

strange going on here." And in the end,

you are bowing down to something that in

the end is idolatrous because it is less

than God. But it's very tempting to do

that.

>> I mean, people are basically praying to

it now. They're confiding in a in a way

that they might have.

>> Absolutely. Doing it. And you know, I'm

fascinated by this. I've never seen one

of these before, but I like it. And I

tell you why I like it.

>> So, for people that can't see what we're

doing, it's a brain.

>> It's a brain, and it's got two halves.

And one of the people who've influenced

my thinking about AI a lot

is uh Dr. Ian McIchrist, the author of

this fascinating book called The Matter

with Things. And he has studied the fact

that this brain has two hemispheres,

>> two halves. Both halves are involved in

almost every cognitive event. But the

two different halves have different ways

of paying attention to the world. One is

narrow focus, the left side of the

brain, and the other is the big picture.

And he says what has happened

historically in the west is for the last

five or so hundred years we have

concentrated on the narrow rationalist

reductionist left side of the brain and

we've forgotten the right side that

contextualizes everything. So that quote

we now find ourselves in a world where

we understand how almost everything

works but we know the meaning of

nothing. And what he calls for is to

open this sphere up. And of course that

includes to beauty, culture, art, music,

and religion. Step by step, he appears

to be creating more room for God because

God makes sense of the space he feels is

very necessary to fulfill. And I find

that absolutely fascinating. And you

probably noticed it too. the number of

intellectuals who are step by step

taking the Christian faith more

seriously as giving a rational account

of what's going on that makes very big

sense of the big picture

>> what is going on in society because it

does feel like more and more people have

these sort of existential questions

about meaning and they might be turning

to Christianity or Islam or other but

what is from a 30,000 foot perspective

happening to us which is making us ask

some of these questions

And for you know younger generations it

might be spirituality however they

define that but there's certainly a

macro picture here of something

happening.

>> Oh there is I agree with you entirely

and I think it's because we've had

pushed at us for too long a very

reductionist view of the world. It's

nothing but physics and chemistry. It's

nothing but this is that. And people

rightly feel it's too small a world to

live in. They're looking to break out of

this. Isn't there a bigger picture that

can make sense of my world and make

sense of my life and giving some

meaning? Because if you reduce

everything, it ends up in a black hole

of meaninglessness.

And that's one of my uh top reasons for

not being an atheist because it destroys

rationality by almost by definition

because it tells me that my brain which

does all the thinking it's not my mind

it's connected and those are two

different things and that's another big

story but this is the end product of a

mindless unguided

uh process and I have fun with

scientists you know sometimes I ask them

uh about the brain and how it arose and

they tell me something like that and I

said and you trust it. Tell me if the

computer that you use every day if you

knew it was the end product of a random

process would you trust it? Every single

scientist and some of them are very

highowered that I've asked that question

to have said no I would not. So I say

you've got a problem haven't you? Your

atheism goes too far. It undermines the

very rationality we need to do science,

let alone to believe in atheism. And

that's my main beef with people like

Richard Dawkins and the new atheists.

But I see they're fading. They're

fading. So here's the irony. Atheism

claiming rationality destroys it.

Whereas I believe the Christian faith

also claims rationality in in the sense

that evidence-based we shout about that

a lot in science and medicine and

rightly so. What we trust in ought to be

evidence-based. I claim exactly the same

thing for Christianity and that's why

I'm a Christian because I believe the

evidence supports it otherwise I

wouldn't.

>> So I guess how do I identify? Maybe as

someone that's agnostic, like I'm I

don't really know.

>> Well, that's okay.

But does that mean you're open to know?

You'd like to know?

>> Yes.

>> Well, that's I'm always open.

>> That's that's wonderful to see. That's

that seems to me to be exactly the right

attitude. Jesus actually challenged

someone in his day and says if anyone

wants to do the will of God he shall

know of the teaching whether I'm

speaking from myself or whether it's

from God. I notice what he doesn't say.

He doesn't say if anyone wants to know

he will know. If anyone wants to do he

will know. And the difference between

the two, and I'd be interested in your

response to it, is that being prepared

to do something when you know it is more

than just knowing it and possibly just

leaving it on the table. In other words,

Jesus is interested in people who are

going to take the step of trust and

following him. And that's the big deal.

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>> Do you know what it is? I find all I

find all explanations as to like the

bigger picture to be like fundamentally

incomplete.

>> Yes.

>> Because there's many things you said

about the nature of Christianity and

religion that I go amazing. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And then there's a couple of things

I go well. Uh, and the same when I sit

here with a physicist that's telling me

about the big bang. Yes.

>> I have the same thing where I'm going,

"Yes, yes, of course, yes. Oh, we've got

evidence that the universe is

expanding." Okay. And then they'll say

other things and I go, "Well, that's not

complete."

>> And so, I find myself sat on the fence.

I would love you to convince me. I mean,

it's not your responsibility to do so,

but where does that journey of of

believing begin for someone like me?

Because, you know, people say the Bible,

and I go, "Well, it's kind of like what

you said about the computers. It's like

if you're using something to justify the

same thing is true.

>> Yes.

>> Then that circular reasoning I find to

be incomplete. Cuz I could write on this

piece of paper, uh, Steven Butler is a

lizard.

>> Yes.

>> And

this piece of paper is true. And then

you then use that same piece of paper to

justify the validity of that same piece

of paper.

>> Mhm.

>> And I go, well, that's not solid

reasoning.

>> No. But you see, I could say, Stephen

Bartlett, there's a red Ferrari parked

in the street outside.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's yours if you want to take it.

We could sit and discuss it for a

thousand years. You would never know

whether I was true or not unless you

went and looked.

>> And it seems to me the word skeptic is a

very interesting one. I regard myself as

a skeptic. But in Greek, skept means to

look at something from a distance. Now,

if you are ever going to get to know a

person,

you've got to begin to give up your

distance. You will know that from

everyday life. And it seems to me one of

the things to try to begin to grasp is

God is not a proposition or a philosophy

or even a religion. God is a person. And

as a person, he has entered our world.

However incredible that may seem.

Although this is the irony of the

Harrari position, if I might just say it

on a side, people come to me as they've

done with their transhumanist agenda and

say, you know, we're going to solve the

problem of death and we're going to

increase human happiness. And I look at

them and I smile. I say, you're too

late. And they say, "What? We haven't

got there yet." I said, "You're too

late." What do you mean we're too late?

Well, I said the problem of physical

death was solved when God raised Christ

from the dead 20 centuries ago. And as

for human happiness and uploading us

into eternity, you know, I'm waiting for

the biggest uploading that's ever going

to happen in history when Christ returns

and raises me from the dead because that

is precisely what he promises. And it's

most interesting watching people and I

say, "Isn't it fascinating that your

transhumanism consists in humans

reaching out to become little gods?"

Whereas Christianity is the exact

opposite. It talks about a god who

became human so that he could give us

life and give us a new relationship with

him. What really completes the circle

for me is that my relationship with God

is a relationship which is based on the

solution to the really hard problem. And

that is the problem that I

by nature have not always done good and

by my own standards I have failed. Now

all this talk of transhumanism, AI and

everything else, what it's trying to do

is to build paradise, utopia without

facing the problem of the damage that

humans have caused to themselves and one

another. They will not face the sin

problem. Christianity

to me doesn't compete with any anything

else because Christ offers me something

nobody else offers me. Nobody else

offers me peace. The peace of knowing

that I have real forgiveness. The peace

of knowing that I have a friend and a

companion to whom I can talk all the

time. That's been so meaningful in my

life as I spell out in detail my

autobiography.

And the peace of having been given a new

life that will not end when I die. I'm

82 now. I'm probably more than twice as

old as you are. As I look towards the

future, I have in my heart a certainty.

Not because I've merited it. The exact

opposite. Because I couldn't merit it,

but because Christ has done something

for me through the cross and the

resurrection. That may sound all mumbo

jumbo at the moment, but has done

something that enables me to have a

relationship that is secure, that floods

over the whole of life and has made my

life what it is for the last 70 years,

more or less. I think everybody,

especially in a world that's getting

increasingly lonely and disconnected and

isolated for many reasons,

>> is looking for that secure relationship.

>> They are.

>> They're looking for their own, you know,

a home that can't fall down.

>> Yes.

>> Yes. And a peace that doesn't fade and a

an inheritance that doesn't Exactly.

You're right.

>> If I could choose that, if I could press

a button and have it, I would have it.

But there's this other part of my brain

which

will naturally interrogate whether it's

real

>> or it's true.

>> You're absolutely right. Why am I

sitting in front of you talking about

this stuff? Because I've interrogated

myself about it and its truth for over

70 years.

I've made myself totally vulnerable.

That's why I got into all the debates

with you atheists and all the rest of it

because I want to be sure. But it won't

come about by pressing a button. It will

come about if you're open enough to say,

"God, I'm open. Reveal yourself to me,

and I'm prepared to take the steps that

I feel are leading me onto solid ground.

I do not believe that this is a process

of taking a leap into the dark, but it's

making a commitment on the basis of what

you know already and taking a step

further forward." And the interesting

thing about this is

the trust that's at the heart of

everything.

I trust my wife. I've been married to

her for 58 years this year. It's

evidence-based trust. I don't trust her

for no reason. And the same is true of

my friends, as would be the case with

you. evidence-based trust in science and

in Christian things. I don't regard

myself as religious particularly and the

reason is this and it's an important

reason. Most religions prescribe a moral

way that you try to follow and you've

teachers, gurus, imams, all the rest,

priests to keep you on the way and then

you come to a judgment at the end. And I

usually draw a scale of justice. And if

your good deeds tip over the bad deeds,

then you get in to whatever it is,

heaven, nirvana, all the rest of that's

religion. It's not Christianity, though

many people think it is. Because if you

ask them, are you a Christian? and say,

"Well, I do my best and I hope that God

will be kind." That isn't Christianity.

It's the exact opposite of Christianity.

That's a meritbased religion.

And you see

the irony of all this is that we would

never at least I don't know some people

might but in a human relationship

we don't base our affection and

relationship with someone on the basis

of their merit. I have a little analogy

I use that sometimes tickles people's

minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl

on my second day at Cambridge. I'd been

warned she might be there. And she was

sitting in church. And

I decided that I'd like to marry her. So

I bought the most expensive cookery book

I could. And uh I came and I handed to

her and she said, "What's that?" Well, I

said, "You know, we have a interesting

tradition in our family, you see. Uh and

if anybody gets married, they give the

potential bride a cookbook. Why?" Well,

look at page 152. Here's the the laws

for making an apple cake. And I like

apple cake. So law 1 22 two2 take so

much flour sugar. Now I said it's going

to be like this. If you keep those rules

for the next, let's be generous 40 years

or so. I will accept you otherwise you

can go back to your mother. Now when I

say that to an audience, they rock about

with laughter. But it's exactly the way

many of them have been taught to think

about God. keep the rules as best as you

can and hope that God is generous. When

actually I did no such thing. I've given

my wife several cookbooks, but they're

not the basis of the relationship. And

because the relationship is based on

acceptance that comes at the start of

the common journey, it sets her free to

live and do other things that she wants

to do. And I have noticed often that

once people begin to realize that

they're beginning to understand a basic

concept which is grace that God does

everything and if we trust him he it is

that gives us the certainty. So it's not

arrogance to accept it from him. It's

arrogance actually to reject and say oh

no no I'll go my own way and I'll try my

best and hope that you will accept me.

And the heart of the Christian message

which I believe is there is that the

trust is based on what someone else has

done what Christ has done not what I

have done and that's what's given me the

power and as I said earlier completed

the circle and enabled me to live.

>> That was a a really beautiful

description and definition of what what

the Christian faith is about.

It still leaves me with a question about

whether it's true

>> and this is the sort of central question

that I need to find my way over.

>> Yeah, I agree with you.

>> Absolutely.

>> And this is I find myself often I've sat

with a few um like Christian apologists

and asked them similar questions about

like how do I know if it's true?

And I guess so so far I've got you know

if there's a red Ferrari outside you'd

have to go outside and see for yourself.

That's the only way you're going to

know. But what how do you know that this

thing you've committed yourself to and

you've believed and you know talked

about for 70 years of your life is true

and could it be the case that it's not

true?

>> Okay, let's handle that. That's a hugely

important question. I have two

approaches to this which I call roughly

speaking objective and subjective.

And it depends entirely where someone's

coming from. They may start very far

back and say, "Look, we read about this

chap Jesus. How do we know he ever

existed?" Well, then you go to the

ancient historians and you find that

most of them, whether they're atheists

or not, believe that he existed and so

on.

>> I accept that he existed.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> Okay. Well, that's a good start. You

know, some of the disciples when Jesus

rose from the dead, they just didn't

believe the story. Ridiculous. And

there's a famous story of Thomas who

said to the others, he said, "Unless I

see the marks in his hands and so on, I

won't believe." And then Jesus stood

among them and

he didn't make fun of Thomas's

objective. He said, "Thomas, come and

have a look." You never know what

swimming is until you get into the

water.

Isn't that true?

>> It is true. And all I can say is that

step by step, keep asking your

questions. Absolutely.

I don't believe that God will ever ask

us to take a step with which we should

be uncomfortable. I just don't believe

that.

>> Could you be wrong that Christianity So

could it be the case that Christianity

was

was about a real guy called Jesus? uh

based on a real guy called Jesus. But

the stories told, you know, there was

decades passed between the things that

happened and people

>> not so much as you'd think actually.

>> What for four decades for the first

time?

>> When you when you say to me, could you

be wrong? My academic mind says

theoretically, yes. But practically, no.

Could I be wrong? It would be like

asking me, John, you know, you've been

married to Sally for 58 years. Could you

be wrong that she loves you? Well,

theoretically, yes, but actually the

evidence all points in the other

direction. And that's what I would say

that I have built up in my life. And I'd

love you to ask me that question when

you've read that autobiography.

>> Why would you think it would read?

>> Because I I think what I relate there is

enough evidence for someone outside

who's skeptical to say there may well be

something in that. But in the end, you

won't know until you step into the water

and then you find that Christ is there

to catch you.

>> And what did you find in the water when

you stepped into the water?

>> Well, I was very young. You see, my

parents taught me quite clearly that I

wasn't born a Christian. You become a

Christian by trusting Christ. That's to

have somebody born or made a Christian

by some ceremony is absurd to my mind.

And so in my simple way, I responded as

a child. I didn't have any great

feelings or anything else. But what

happened to me as I grew, especially as

I I went to university in Cambridge, and

I decided, look, I really believe this

stuff is true. I'm going to stand for

it. And it was when I began to stand and

share with others that a great deal of

the underpinning came in and the

certainty came cumulatively. Not all a

big I've never had these big

flashes of anything. But I have had

several experiences of what I can only

put down to direct divine guidance and I

record them in the book.

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I've got some um some of the questions

that really stumped me when I was so I

was I was Christian up until the age of

about 18 and then I went into the whole

like new atheist movement with Richard

Dawkins and Sam Harris and that little

phase of my life. But one of the stats

that used to get me when I went through

that new atheist movement

>> was that

>> globally 91% of adults simply adopt and

keep the religion they were raised in.

And if a person is born into a Hindi or

Muslim household, there is a 99%

statistical probability they will remain

in that faith. Only 1% switch out.

>> And then the argument, I think it came

from Dawkins or someone else, was that

>> is it fair that there's this birth

lottery determining who ends up

believing what or theoretically getting

into hell or heaven.

>> Yes.

>> Because if I was born in, I don't know,

Afghanistan, the probability says I'd

probably be Muslim.

>> Yeah. Well, I I take that absolutely.

>> So God gave you an advantage in this

context because he he he allowed you to

be born his in his all knowing all all

uh understanding way put you to be born

in a place where you were likely to be

Christian.

>> It sounds to me as if he gave the same

advantage to you.

>> So the question is what do we do with

that privilege? Now I know that there

are hard problems around the edge here.

There are really hard problems not only

where you're born and what you believe.

This was the argument that Peter Singer

advanced to be had a debate. I don't

know whether you've heard about it.

Peter Singer, you know, the Princeton

ethicist who really was one of the new

atheists but not quite very famous for

his views on dealing with the unborn all

the rest. when we had a debate in

Australia and I started as I always do

by being upfront about my background

and he when he got the chance to speak

he said well there goes my best

objection to religion people always stay

in the religion which they're brought up

you see when I next got a chance to

speak I said Peter I told the audience

about my Christian background but you

said nothing about yours now tell Were

your parents atheists?

He said they were. Oh, I said then you

remained in the faith in which you were

brought up. Oh, but he said it isn't a

faith. And I said, Peter, I was I was

convinced that you believed it. And it

brought the house down. Of course, this

the cyerspace went mad. And the point

was made repeatedly all over the

internet. Here's one of the world's top

philosophers. He doesn't understand that

his atheism is a belief system.

>> And the irony was the very first person

he met after that debate was a fellow

Hungarian Jew who was a friend of mine.

And then my friend said, "And I became a

Christian." So the very first person he

met was someone who had transitioned

from his background. That doesn't answer

your question. It's a question I ask

often

>> because God could correct this. Well,

this is just the point. And we have had

these arguments and debates. A good God

and an all powerful God would, could,

should, all this kind of stuff. And we

never get

a satisfactory answer to that. So, I've

come up with another problem possibly

because I'm a mathematician and we when

we've hammered at one problem for

centuries, we usually stop and try

another one. My other problem is just as

hard, but I think it gets me a bit

further and it's this. Every world view

must face

a mixed picture. I call it beauty and

barbwire or beauty and bombs. That

that's the world. It's mixed. And if you

don't accept that, you're not in touch

with reality. Now, here's my question.

Is there anywhere evidence

enough

to trust God with that situation?

That's a hard question.

>> And by that you mean the situation of

the sort of geographical distribution of

believers.

>> Yes. We'll never understand it or solve

it.

>> But do we trust God?

>> Do we trust God ultimately to be

absolutely fair? Because if God isn't

fair in the end, he knows what everybody

thinks, I believe. And we'll be

surprised maybe at what he does because

he can measure how much people know. My

responsibility is twofold. One, to

respond to the evidence I've had and

then Christ tells me to go and share it.

And that's what I do and I've been doing

all my life.

It doesn't answer a question, but it

gives you motivation. and the

alternative to rule God out has so many

uh negatives to it that I think I think

yeah so when I think about what I

understand of the Bible there's a

particular part of the Bible that talks

about the only way into heaven is

through Jesus and from that I inferred

that the only way to get into this great

place that everybody wants to go to is

by believing

>> but does everybody want to go to it I'm

not sure that they do

>> I I have met many people who when they

hear what Christ offers, they reject it.

But that that's that's another point.

>> So if if we talk about this

distribution,

>> yes,

>> sort of birthright distribution of what

you believe, um, and then those that

believe this one particular thing are

going to get into this heaven, it feels

unfair. Or this idea that only those

that believe get in is wrong.

>> Or God is not as nice as we thought and

he's playing a bit of a cruel game.

There's a fair bit going for your logic

there. I I I think and I think there are

aspects of this we don't understand

because to give a crude example of this

I expect to meet Abraham

and Moses but they didn't know about

Jesus

>> cuz they were before.

>> Yes.

>> When I approach this you said you're

agnostic. I like that word. People

rarely ask me if I'm agnostic, but what

I'm telling you is I'm agnostic about

masses of things. It's how I learn.

>> Agosco in Greek just means I don't know.

>> Yeah.

>> And once you take the other step and

saying I don't know and you can't know,

it then becomes illogical because if you

don't know, how can you know that I

can't know? And I always remember the

words of Richard Fineman who was a

brilliant Nobel Prize winning physicist.

You probably heard of Richard Fineman

who said, "Bend over backwards to

criticize yourself because you are the

easiest person for yourself to deceive."

>> Amen.

>> He was dead right. And that's why I love

exploring these things. And I feel

honored to talk to someone who's so

refreshing. I think there's great hope

for our culture in people like yourself

exploring and sharing

with the world the conclusions that

you've come to and the people that

you're interacting with.

>> Yeah, like I said, I have no I don't

have perfect answers either way. So

that's why the word agnostic seems to be

perfectly apt. Um the other real

question that I had that really stumped

me when I was 18 years old was this

point about omniscience. Yes. I mean,

it's the oldest question in the sort of

atheist religious battle, which is if

God is all knowing, he knew exactly

which individuals would reject him and

suffer

>> um and go to hell before he even created

them.

>> Yeah, that's determinism.

>> So, how is creating a soul that you know

is doomed

>> um an act of love?

>> Well, it isn't.

I don't go for that determinism. In

fact, I've written a book that thick

about it.

>> I think it was actually Ricky Jves tell

the story of the the baby being born in

let's say it's Africa or somewhere else

or India or wherever it might be the UK

who is born with a parasite eating its

eyeball out from the inside.

>> I know this. Yeah.

>> And I remember hearing that when I was

18.

>> Yeah. Terrible.

>> And thinking, okay, so if God's all

knowing, he knew that that baby was

going to have its eye eaten out by a

parasite before the baby was born, but

allowed the baby to be born anyway. And

with my moral compass, I would have

intervened. And if he's omnipotent or

powerful, he could have inter. So how do

you these qu where is the flaw in that

question?

Is there a flaw? Is there a

misunderstanding?

>> I I think there can be a

misunderstanding but it's a very

understandable one because I feel

exactly the weight of that as well. My

question that I set out a few minutes

ago is there any evidence anywhere that

God you can trust God with it? And the

major piece of evidence to my mind is

the cross of Christ. And if Christ

really is God whom he claimed to be,

this is God's suffering. And why is God

suffering? Well, it certainly tells me

that he hasn't remained distant from

human suffering, but has himself become

part of it. Now, that's not an answer.

There are no simplistic answers here.

But you see once you remove God

that child there's no hope for it. It's

dead gone out nothing but suppose God

can compensate that child because he is

the power to raise from the dead as he

did with Jesus

that changes everything for me. The

universe without a resurrection I don't

know whether you've ever watched my

debate the first one with Richard

Dawkins.

>> I suspect I have. the very last bit of

it, we were suddenly told we'd only 2

minutes to wrap up instead of nine each

and I said something about the

resurrection. And I never forget what

Richard said. It was something like

this. We've had a great discussion about

big ideas and so on. And now we come

down to the resurrection of Jesus. How

petty,

how paroial, how unworthy of the

universe. I remember thinking

if Jesus rose from the dead, it's the

biggest thing that's ever happened

because it may open the way to

understanding that there is life after

death. And you see CS Lewis has helped

me a lot. I used to listen to him. I'm

that old. He has helped me a lot in in

this idea of

a sense in which there's more than one

world. And we're so conditioned to

thinking that this world is the only one

there is. But if there is another world

and there is a loving God, then I

suspect, I can't prove this to you, but

when we one day see and enter that world

and see what God has done with the kind

of child you mentioned, we'll have no

more questions.

>> So, you think he's compensated that

child?

>> Oh, yes. God is a God of love. He will

do much better than look the biggest

gift that God has given you and me

is

our moral sense and the capacity to

love.

Now, we analyze problems like this with

our God-given capacities.

And we come, and I understand it

perfectly well because I've come to the

same place as you.

And say, "Well, God, if I had been you,

I would have done this."

Well, I suspect one day we're going to

find out why God didn't.

He's going to let me die one day. I've

nearly died died already. I've said

goodbye to my wife by the way and they

thought they weren't going 14 years ago

and I said goodbye. And it's interesting

when things like that hit you. Forgive

the personal reference, but it's very

real. Total peace both of us had

as I went into the operating theater and

the surgeon saved my life. And this

would take us down another rabbit hole.

But I got to New Zealand just a few days

after the earthquake. And I was on a

lecture tour and everything was

scrapped. I was in television, radio,

but only one topic, why earthquakes, you

see. And I met people that had lost

loved ones and all this kind of thing.

And I talked about the God who has

suffered and raised Jesus from the dead.

And the interesting thing was it was

that that gave the most hope to the

people that were listening to me because

they told me and wrote me little letters

afterwards and so on. So I I think

there's something big here. But that God

allows these things to happen is

something that in the end we have to

take on board even when they happen to

us.

>> What about all the um the humans that

lived before Jesus came? Well, God will

never judge anybody for not knowing what

they didn't know.

>> Interesting. That's an interesting idea.

So, I don't know.

>> So, am I good? Am I going to get into

heaven?

>> Well, no one is good but God. But you

see,

>> is it important for me to

>> You do know a great deal. That's obvious

to me. You do know a great deal. You

know what this is all about. And in a

sense you've been very near uh at the

beginning and you're now doing an

exploration and I mean your life stories

that you must write your autobiography

sometimes but wait a few years.

>> Yeah. I need I think I need a few more

experiences.

>> Yes.

>> But you will get them. I I I really

believe that the openness is the

important thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Quiz people. Put your Christian friends

under now.

>> Yes. I know. I know. It's lovely to find

someone who's prepared to do that quite

frankly.

>> Is it important that I believe in God?

Like if I live a good life and I'm kind

to people and I do my best.

>> But you see that's exactly the point I

was making that people think that living

a good life and being kind to people is

what God is interested in. When God has

prepared for us a relationship with

himself through Christ that deals with

the forgiveness of sins that we all

need, forgive me using the hackneed

phrase, but that's it. And will give us

a new life and a power to live, a new

power. You know, it's all very well

saying, I do good and I do this and do

the other thing. But we don't have the

power to live as we should. If we

compare ourselves to the sermon on the

mount for a week, we'll soon realize

that we're lacking. And I I think one of

the big changes comes in people as they

realize just the depth of what they

might be capable of

and possibly the depths of some things

that sadly they do and are facing a a

big need of forgiveness. You meet many

of them in prisons of course but I I

have seen such remarkable things happen

both directly and indirectly with people

who've made such a mess of life and God

has met them even in death row and

Russia and places like that where I was

able to go because I speak the language

to a certain extent again that I find

tremendously powerful evidence that God

is at work in these people's lives. It

is statistically the case that the more

hopeless your life becomes, the higher

the probability you have of turning to

um a religion and also if you're having

a crisis of meaning in your life for

whatever reason. I looked at some of the

data and it does show that

>> that's absolutely right and that's what

you'd expect if there if it's true at

least to a certain extent it gives

people something outside themselves.

That's simple psychology. I would have

thought

>> simple psychology

>> but it doesn't prove the truth or

>> it doesn't prove the truth because what

if I believe in the dragon at the bottom

of the garden or the spaghetti monster

>> lepreorns if you're Irish

>> and it seems to be the case that really

irrespective of which religion that you

know fills that you know place in your

life you still get the same boost in

meaning post starting to believe

>> well I'm not convinced of that you see

because I'm sitting here as a Christian

and I've reasoned for being a Christian

because I don't find this need met in

those practitioner ers of other

religions. I don't find that sense of

fulfillment and peace uh that comes

through the forgiveness in Christ. Now

when I say that I need to guard that

very carefully because one of the

troubles in and you will probably have

realized this in talking about different

religions is that once you begin to

criticize a religion,

people rightly think you're looking down

at them.

And so I clear the ground completely by

saying that

a pagan or a person in any religion

could put me to shame by their moral

behavior in raising questions about what

is taught by a particular religion. I'm

not criticizing your moral stance. And

CS Lewis helped me greatly there. He

wrote a book in the 1940s where he

tackled I think 40 different religions

and philosophies and in every one of

them he found the golden rule. Do unto

others what you would and he points out

that this is morally

hardwired into your system. So that when

I'm talking to people of other faiths

and ask these questions, I I'm very

careful to say that at the beginning.

But we've got to face the fact that

there are differences. My Jewish friends

believe that Jesus died and did not

rise. My Muslim friends believed he

didn't die. I believe he both died and

rose. Those three things cannot be

simultaneously true.

>> But when I look at the stats here, data

shows that devout Muslims and a devout

Hindu get the exact same psychological

meaning boost and sense of peace as a

devout Christian.

>> Well, how do you measure that? Well,

they ask them, "Does your life more

meaningful?" And sometimes, um, I've got

one particular friend who's part of his,

you know, uh, evidence that what he

believes is true is the feeling he got

when he started believing it.

>> Yeah. Well,

>> but the data suggests that

>> that if it is true, a positive feeling

would reinforce that, of course, but it

doesn't prove it in the end. But then

your criteria for yourself of what you

accept will be different from that

person. So you have to proceed

on the basis like Thomas of old. He

wouldn't accept what the other guys

said. He said I need the evidence for

myself and you need the evidence for

yourself. Evidence of the kind that's

going to give you a settled peace and

confidence in what you believe. I can

understand that perfectly.

>> Then there were also I was thinking then

I was thinking that there's fiction

movies I've watched that made me feel

really good.

>> Yes.

>> Afterwards and they made me feel like

more motivated and connected to the

university.

>> Yes, of course.

Steve, what are you doing?

>> Uh, just making myself a delicious

coffee

>> from the freezer.

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I've done almost 700 interviews with

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question I asked about good people,

living a good life. It it it seems to be

the case that the Bible suggests that if

you don't believe in God, even if you

lived a good life, you go to hell. And

hell is described as not a nice place.

So, I I was thinking about the most kind

person I know that's lived her life to

be unbelievable passed away. She didn't

believe. Does that mean she's in hell?

Well, you can't answer that. Let me just

say something here that

what scripture reveals is a very

interesting thing that the only people

to whom Jesus talked about hell were

religious bigots

who were in danger of it.

He didn't talk about it to ordinary

folks who were struggling with believing

and trusting God and all the rest.

That's point number one.

>> What is what are you implying there?

Sorry. Well, what I'm implying there is

that we paint hell as something

ogre like god stuffing and demonsting uh

bodies into hell when actually

I think Lewis got it right here you know

when he talks about this that

hell is absence of God and it's chosen

if a person doesn't want God in their

life and I've known people like that and

they choose it, God will give them what

they chose. Otherwise, God is going to

have to force his way into their lives

and they don't want him. And here is the

amazing thing to my mind about Jesus and

his attitude. He would go places. He

would heal people. He would bring peace

into their lives and all the rest of it.

But when folk saw what he did and said,

"Go leave us alone," he went.

He didn't force his way into their

lives. And it it seems to me that the

one example in the New Testament of a

person who did not live a good life and

neglected the poor around him and ended

in that place. There is no evidence that

he wanted out of it. What he said was,

"Please send Abram to my brothers that

they don't come to this place." There's

no indication that he wanted out of it.

And I think this is a grim reality here

that when we use these words, we need to

be immensely careful.

You can choose

not to have God and God will honor that

choice and that is hell.

>> One of the things that um I grew up

believing because of the the Bible was

that if you repented,

>> yes,

>> which is you know to ask forgiveness,

admit your sins, etc. acknowledge God,

believe, then your sins would be

forgiven.

>> So if someone was a serial killer for

their whole life and then repented at

the end of their life, would they be

forgiven and allowed into heaven? I

guess this kind of links to the question

I just asked, which is if someone was a

doctor for their whole life, cur curing

childhood cancer, but they didn't

believe they would theoretically be

going to this place described as hell.

>> Yeah, we can argue about cases like that

all the time. Neither of us is God. And

the way God deals with these people,

after all, next to Christ on the cross

were two thieves. Well, they were

terrorists, actually. They both murdered

apparently. And one of them railed

against Jesus and shouted and all this

kind of thing. And the other uh simply

said to him, "I deserve to be here.

Remember me when you come into your

kingdom." And Jesus turned to him on the

cross and said, "Today you will be with

me in paradise." And so yes, he in that

sense. Yes. And the Apostle Paul, you

know, was a murderer. There are deep

mysteries here. It's just amazing. I

never forget looking through the door of

a Russian

security death row. I'd never been in a

death row before. And the stink, it was

just like a nightmare. And because I was

the only one of the Brits who could

speak Russian, I went up to the door and

a chap came over and looked at me gaunt

and all this. And he was just awaiting

execution.

And what he said to me was this. He

said, "I deserve to be here." He killed

12 women or something. I can't remember

which. And then his face just burst into

what I can only describe as a ghastly

smile.

And he said, "I met Jesus here and he

forgave me

and you just

you go away with a very

burdened heart, I think."

And he said, "My colleague lying over

there is the same." What do you make of

it? I don't think we're going to find

out.

>> I don't know. I feel like I'm wired to

try I try and have to solve these

problems, these big questions. I

have to like figure them out or they all

just sit there causing increasingly more

confusion which pops me right on that

agnostic fence.

>> Yes, I would encourage you to

concentrate on the one that you think is

most important one at a time and I I

don't know because I've only met you. I

think what you're doing by

talking to people from different

backgrounds and so on. I'd love to be

able to say here's where you must look,

but each one of us is so complex and

what will answer the question for you

might not answer it for the person

sitting next to you.

>> Mhm.

>> But don't stop exploring, I would say.

But I don't think you will.

>> No, I won't. That's for sure. because I

find the the curious pursuit of truth in

and of itself a rewarding pursuit

irrespective of whether I ever find the

answers.

>> That's the key. A speech that made a

deep impression on me was given by

Alexander Soldier Nitsson when he was

pushed out of the Soviet Union. Do not

compromise in the least with lies. Live

not by lies. I think our generation

needs to hear that because one of the

great and tragic capacities of AI is the

spread of lies, deep fakes, all the rest

of it. I've been subject to it myself in

the last month. when you think about the

impact that AI is going to have on human

purpose. We talk a lot about job losses

and yes um you know white collar workers

entry- level roles and then really like

everything else if if you have a long

enough time horizon it's conceivable

that many of the roles we all do today

including maybe even as a podcaster um I

think Spotify announced this month that

you're going to be able to generate your

own podcasts with AI um what is the high

level sort of philosophical point we

need to understand about meaning and how

to live a good life uh in a world where

some of us might lose our jobs and have

to contend with change in a way that

we've not experienced before.

>> I think we just have to I mean I have

children, grandchildren, all the rest of

it. And one of my sons is beginning to

ask questions. Dad, AI looks as if it's

going to replace my job. Well, he's

techsavvy and he will rise to it, I

suspect. But all industrial revolutions

did this, but this is going to do it in

a scale never before seen. And the

tragedy is uh I was talking about this

in South Africa and they said it's all

very well to tell us to reskill people

but if you don't have the educational

infrastructure to do that

you'll just force a much bigger divide

between the rich and the poor and

they're really worried about it.

I think the important thing which is why

I wrote my books is to inform and get

people thinking and get them talking.

>> What is the conversation you want them

to be talking about? I think it's a very

wide-ranging

conversation. You know, there are

existential things for people. They're

afraid.

>> Should they be?

>> Well, they should be afraid of some

things. I think the creeping advance of

totalitarianism is something that could

engulf us all

if we're not very careful. It's

creeping, creeping, creeping, and is

being ruled out in parts of the world,

particularly China. But not only I read

a very interesting report by a Chinese

watcher saying beware you and the west

because the only difference between us

and you is you've got all the technology

but not yet a central government

imposing it. Not yet. Beware and I think

we have to beware because we are

sleepwalking into this. uh Sir Anthony

Seldon, I don't know whether you've come

across him. He's a an education is very

highly regarded by various governments

has written a book about AI and its

effect in education and of course it's

having a devastating effect as you know

what is an essay.

Everybody's using AI and it's hard to

recognize whether it's AI or not now. So

that we're into a whole new world or

coming rapidly into it.

How do we know what is true and what

isn't? A few weeks ago, I was contacted,

could a publisher produce a transcript

of a recent lecture I'd given because

they liked it so much. Never heard of

it. I looked it up, discovered a website

describing itself as Linux logic

and it was a picture of me, but it was

deep faked all the way through and AI

generated

material that I would never have said

all politicized and everything else.

>> Is it conceivable that maybe you know so

much of this technology has promised

that it would make us more human and so

much of it failed. It made us more

isolated and lonely.

>> Oh yes. Is it conceivable that if a

technology comes along like AI, it will

render us um useful for the things that

humans are uniquely positioned to do

>> as in you know being with each other in

the real world and absolutely

relationships and is it conceivable that

maybe we were never meant to sit in

front of screens tap tapping buttons and

>> oh I think that's absolutely true what's

already exercising many people's minds

in that direction

>> and could that be a better life

>> well how would I judge that I

>> I guess one way. Yeah, it's a good

point. Um, you know, I was thinking

about this. I was thinking, is this like

the moment where we kind of regress back

to

how we used to live, our true maybe

human nature? Is that is that what

happens here? Where I don't know, we

spend more time with each other in the

real world and we cuz that's what you

know that's very human and my Maslovian

needs of connection and touch and

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can you can

demonstrate that. Look at these groups

of parents who have said to their kids,

"Look, we're going away into the country

for a week and we're taking your

smartphones away." And they grumble and

say, "No, no, no." And they come back

after the week having rediscovered

nature. They don't want to use their

smartphones very much. Totally

transformed by touch and taste and

feeling. You see,

AI is a machine.

It doesn't have any of our five senses.

which are all connected with our

consciousness. It doesn't see, it

doesn't hear,

>> it doesn't taste.

>> When you say it doesn't,

>> it doesn't touch, it doesn't smell,

>> it doesn't see.

>> Oh, it can it can be programmed to

recognize patterns, but it is no

awareness of what the process of seeing

is.

>> Does it need it?

>> Well, that's not the point. What I'm

saying is it's uh distinctively human

that we understand what seeing is. We

know what seeing red is. Do we the

machine? Yes, I think we do.

>> I mean, we can philosophize all around

it, but it's a conscious experience. And

consciousness from a scientific

perspective is called the hard problem.

No one knows what it is.

>> We don't understand it.

>> Yes, we can't re you can't replicate it.

>> So, how do we know if AI is conscious?

If the output is the same, I I can point

an AI at this and say, "What is it?" And

the AI will say, "It's a mug." And I can

get a human to walk in here and say,

"What is that?" and they'll go a mug.

Now the output is the same.

>> Yes. But the understanding is not there.

>> And why does that part why is that

critical?

>> Well, because there's a huge difference

in being a machine and responding to a

program created by others and being

aware of what you're doing consciously.

That's a totally higher level of being.

>> I agree. But why does that matter in

this context?

Well,

>> one another way of asking this question

is actually visualized by what I have in

front of me here because one of the big

big debates around AI is is it creative?

>> Yes, I know.

>> So, here we have a picture done by

>> a human.

>> Yes.

>> Here, which is you know picture of a

family and a dog and there and then we

have another picture here which is done

by AI.

>> Yes.

>> And we have another picture here which

is done by a different AI.

>> Yes.

Now there's a debate that um AI can't be

creative.

Now can AI be creative?

>> Well, if you call what's in front of you

as creative, then it can be. But it now

comes down to the very big question of

what you actually mean by creative.

>> Yeah.

>> You see, it can create things. It can

put things together that haven't been in

that form before, but it's not aware of

doing it. It doesn't know that those are

children

because it doesn't know.

>> But if I ask it what is that? It would

say a child.

>> Yes. But it doesn't know

like we know

>> and does and this it goes back to the

same question which is does which is