Everything you see in this table has a

strong scientific evidence that it will

help with sleep.

>> So, we're going to dig into all of those

in great detail.

>> So, the first one is a really good one.

Kiwis.

>> Kiwis.

>> Yeah. So, there's been good studies on

them. So, if you have two to three kiwis

before bed, you'll see people sleeping

better. Next on our list is sleep

divorce. People generally don't sleep as

well when you're in the same bed as

others. Next, we want this.

>> This is more evidence than the rest of

these things combined, and it is

effective. Another one to think about is

sound. And

>> it really matters sound when you sleep.

>> Yeah. as much if not more of any other

factor. There's also screen usage,

light, your pillow and wearables. But

the other thing is we're spending more

on sleep and sleep is getting worse. And

for this last 20 years, I've been doing

science coaching and education that

enhances human performance. And I've

been fortunate to work with the world's

most elite athletes, entrepreneurs,

leaders, and even 50% of athletes have a

clinical sleep disorder. It gets worse.

70 to 80% of people who have clinical

sleep apnea will go undiagnosed. And for

women, it's somewhere in the

neighborhood of 90 to 95% and it is

delletterious to your health because

it's highly associated with long-term

death risk, cognitive function, mood

regulation, performance, recovery,

metabolic health, and it happens for a

bunch of different reasons and we can go

through them, but we look at the 8

billion person population. We need more

people to pay attention to their health.

And so I just want to get the best

possible out of people. So this could be

energy, could be metabolic, it could be

cognitive function, could be muscle

growth or fat loss. And so I want to

give every person listening to this the

opportunity to reach their goals and

dreams.

>> I'd love to go through all of those. And

you have a 5 4321 method. What is that?

>> Yeah, it's just a little thing I came up

with that says, "All right, can we help

people with fat loss?" So the first

thing to think about is

this is super interesting to me. My team

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help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get

on with the show.

Dr. Andy Gin, before we started

recording, you said you want to do

scientific research, coaching for your

clients, and you said education.

You also kind of alluded to the fact

that you were less interested in money

and these kinds of things. So the

question is why why do you do what you

do and what is it you're doing and who

are you doing it for?

>> The most concise way I can say it is I

want to give every person listening to

this the opportunity to reach their

goals and dreams. You want to look this

way or not look this way and you want to

perform this way. How can we get you

there? I want to remove those barriers.

And if you get there or don't get there,

it was because of you. It was not

because something was holding you back

that was in your way.

>> Mhm.

>> And so that's why I get equally excited

to work with the best linebacker in the

NFL and some person who just wants to

wake up and not be in back pain

tomorrow.

>> So tell me who you've worked with then.

Who has been a client of yours?

>> Yeah, I've been fortunate to work with

the world's most elite athletes for 20

years at this point. So this is your

number one draft picks in every major

sport. Hall of Famers, Sai young

winners, MVPs, Olympic gold medalists in

many sports, world champion fighters.

We've worked with hemoplegics and

paraplegic individuals. We've worked

with, you know, the cliche executives,

the mom and pops, the person dealing and

struggling with parmenopause. Like,

we've really done most of it.

>> And what kinds of symptoms or goals do

they come to you with?

>> So, I'll go broad categories and

specifics below that. broad categories

we tend to say is either rebuild or

upgrade.

>> Mhm.

>> Rebuild is there's something wrong,

hurt, broken, damaged. I'm overweight. I

can't fix it. I'm dying from sleep

restriction. I have a clinical sleep

disorder. I have some injury. I have

some huge clear limitation that needs to

be resolved. The second half is what we

call upgrade. I don't have any of that.

Feel pretty good, feel okay. Now, I just

want to get the best possible out of my

life. So, this could be energy. It could

be metabolic. It could be cognitive

function. Why I can accomplish that and

our our folks I work with can is because

I'm after the physiology.

>> What's what does you mean by that

physiology?

>> It's your biomolelecular signature. Do

you have a muscle imbalance that's

creating neck pain that's making it hard

to sleep and that's giving you a hard

time regulating your emotions. It could

be classic things like inflammation.

everything that is inside of your body

and both the way that it is running and

expressing itself.

>> And what are your credentials?

>> So my PhD is in what's called human

bioenergetics. I started my lab in 2011.

>> Your lab?

>> Mhm. So I'm an active scientist. I'm a

professor. That's my real job for the

most part. And so we conduct and

disseminate research there that enhances

human performance. And then I've started

a number of companies and privately

coach people. That's what I've been

doing for over 20 years. We talked about

the different personas and the types of

problems they come to you with. If you

had to, and this might be quite

difficult, order them in terms of the

frequency in which people come to you

with these issues. What would that sort

of top five be?

>> I'll break them from our professional

athletes and I'll probably spend more

time on non-professional athletes.

Assuming u most of your audience is

probably not a professional.

>> I won't take that.

>> Pretty close.

>> I won't take that, guys.

>> 50/50. We'll assume 5050. Yeah. Yeah.

Great. The athletes typically come to us

under two circumstances. Um, frequent

injuries I'm getting or tanked energy,

bad sleep. They they deal with the same

human problems we deal with, right? The

other one is what we'll just say is the

upgrade, the optimizer. Feel great, feel

young. I just want to get ahead of

things and I want to catch things before

they start. The general public is a

similar breakdown because you have a lot

of people who are like, I do feel pretty

good. I'm great, but I don't want to

play the game backwards. I don't want

problems to come up and then I got to go

scrambling and figure it out. So, let's

collect baseline data now. Let's get

ahead of things. Let's predict problems

before they arise, but I've only got a

few minutes a day,

>> right? I'm not trying to like take over

my whole life with all this stuff. Like,

probably the most common ones are things

like sleep and energy, performance

goals, can't seem to get stronger, can't

seem to lose that little bit of weight,

maybe touch of brain fog, I don't feel

as sharp. Well, I'd love to go through

all of those. Sleep, energy,

performance, strength, struggles,

weight, but also I've got my blood test

results here, which um Andy has taken a

look at for me. It's not all good. Okay,

so that's a pre-warning. It's not all

good, but he's going to run me through

my blood test results in this episode,

tell me how I improve things. And there

was a couple of deficiencies that I had

that I had no idea that I had cuz I

thought I was doing everything right,

which have completely changed my

supplement, um but also my behavior

generally. And also you've got this here

which is a gentleman I believe whose

blood test results you did similar age

to me and you took him from not so good

to great and we'll talk about that as

well. So hold on for a second while we

we touch first on the subject of um

sleep and energy which is one of the

first thing you talked about. A lot of

people listening struggle with sleep and

they also in their waking life feel

variances in their energy. Um, if we

start then with sleep, what are the like

most people problems of sleep?

>> This is a great question. We'll start

off and in fact I think this is a nice

framing of everything we're going to

talk about. We want to be weary of what

we call health anxiety.

>> Mhm.

>> This is overfixation, over concern,

worrying too much about little things

with your blood work, with your sleep,

everything. You're in a really great

spot. So, we can look for some upgrade,

but we want to be careful of pushing

that line. Why that also matters is if

we look at the 8 billion or so person

population, we probably need more people

to pay attention to their health than to

not pay attention to their health,

right? We're not in an abundance of

people caring too much. But if you're

listening to this show, you are probably

not representative of the general

population. And so I want to be really

careful of everything I'm about to say

for the next couple of hours.

I don't want to create health anxiety. I

don't want you to be so terrified to

touch a receipt that it sends you in a

three-day tail spin.

Anytime we're talking about a health or

performance, we want to run the spectrum

of disease to optimization. We should

not be playing around with optimization

performance if we're in the presence of

a medical disease. And why I say that is

sleep is probably the biggest place of

clinical disease that exists that no one

knows about.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 to

80% of people who have clinical sleep

apnea will go undiagnosed.

>> Wow. If that existed for a broken bone,

>> right? If that existed for diabetes,

you'd be like insane. It gets worse. 50%

depending on which study you look at of

athletes have a clinical sleep disorder.

For women, it's somewhere in the

neighborhood of 90 to 95% of women that

have clinical sleep apnea will go

undiagnosed.

>> Why?

>> If you were to look at me and you would

say, if I said, "Stephen, you think I

have apnea?" He said, "No." Right? If I

were to bring in a whole table of 10

people and I said, "Pick the person in

here least likely to have sleep apnnea."

You'd find the smallest girl.

>> True.

>> You don't think about apnea as something

that can happen unless you're big and

fat.

Women also are less likely than men to

complain.

They're less likely to think about it as

an anatomical issue. They're going to

charge it to hormones. to their

menstrual cycle, to their cognitive

load, to what it's the demands that it

is to be mom. All these are true. By the

way, it is also in the same point true.

You could have apnea that has nothing to

do with body composition.

>> And let's define apnea for a second.

>> You stop breathing at night

>> and that wakes you up.

>> Sometimes it doesn't. No,

>> that's the that's the problem is it

won't necessarily wake you up, but it is

delterious to your health. It's highly

associated with consequences from

long-term death risk to short-term

cognitive function, emotion, mood

regulation, performance, recovery,

metabolic health. It's really really

nasty. In fact, one of the larger things

uh that can go wrong in your health is

is not breathing at night.

>> This might be a silly question, but does

sleep apnnea disrupt your sleep?

>> It it can.

>> So, it doesn't always.

>> Doesn't always. Okay.

>> And this is why do you think it's so

poorly diagnosed? So the classic

giveaways, if you were that person who

wakes up four counties because you snore

so loud, snoring doesn't necessarily

mean you have sleep apnnea, but it's a

really strong indicator. That's one form

of it. So apnea happens for a bunch of

different reasons. More evidence

recently has suggested like neck size

was this kind of original thing that we

say like a big neck is just a problem.

Doesn't look like that's as true, but

certainly it is true. As you increase

obesity rates, you'll see an increase in

apnea as well. So, what's happening here

is now you're talking about I'll call it

anatomical or physical like something

physically is landing on your neck and

your tongue and your throat, your larynx

and esophagus and it's stopping your

breathing. And why this matters is when

you're standing here or sitting here in

this chair, you're in this vertical

position and as you go and lay down,

anatomy shifts. You also have a lot of

research showing that the larger the

human being, the more fluid they have,

which is pretty normal, right? So, a

person who's twice your size will have

twice the amount of water in their body

that you do. Imagine if you had I mean,

we'll take this beverage right here. Why

do you have red wine? Well, anyways,

we'll come back in case you get thirsty.

>> So, you see the water is sitting

vertically, right?

>> If I were to shift this cup

horizontally, the water would shift and

it would it would balance horizontally

to where the gap in the air would be on

the top, right? That happens in your

body. So imagine this top piece start up

here. That's your neck. Now when you lay

down, your neck is over here. And I

would tip this over, but it would spill

everywhere. That fluid then shifts up

into your neck. So it's not even

necessarily a physical size thing, but

it's the fluid associated with being a

larger human being that the fluid shift

can happen.

>> Mhm.

>> What we're now finding is a whole series

of other types of apnea. Now there are

neural causes to it. There are

environmental causes. um there are

positional causes. And so as a classic

example to round the story out,

traditionally if you're told you have

apnea, you're going to be given one of

about three choices. Medication,

what's called a CPAP device,

>> right? So that's the big like Vader

breathing machine

or potentially what's called an oral

appliance. It's a mouthpiece that kind

of repositions your jaw and neck. I'm

for all of those treatments. Why they

all have such low success rates is

because they're given out generically.

You come in, you have apnea, you get the

same stuff. Now, what the field is

moving towards is precision and saying

you have this specific type of apnea. An

oral appliance won't help here. You

actually need this

surgical intervention.

>> I was looking at some of the data here

and it says that sleep apnea is very

common globally, much more common than I

expected. It says men who are

middle-aged

have a 24 to 34%

prevalence of apnea.

Women 9 to 17%.

Uh seniors

>> 30 to 60%.

>> That's right.

>> Post-menopausal women 25%. So yeah,

rough numbers. That means that listening

now, if you're a middle-aged man

listening, if there's three of you

listening right now, one of you

statistically might have apnea. Now,

that's clinical sleep apnnea. That

doesn't even count subclinical.

>> And if you're a senior listening now,

which is 65 years older, there's a 30 to

60% chance. Wow.

>> Depending on some numbers you see,

Stephen, you'll see a billion people

across the globe.

>> Yeah, that's what it says. It says a

billion people. Yeah.

>> Now, that's only apnea. That's not

insomnia. That's not all the other sleep

disorders. That's simply the one variant

of it.

>> Why is this happening? Because again

from an evolutionary perspective, sleep

apnnea couldn't have been a great for

survival.

>> Yeah. Three primary reasons why this is

happening. The first is the fact that

our our environment is physically

changing.

Our ancestors never had to deal with

this.

Two, our current solutions for testing

are either insanely outdated or

incredibly difficult to get to.

The third major one

is our solutions that we provide people

in public communication are wildly

generic. Thus not helpful. In fact, if

you were to pull everyone listening

right now, sleep comes up and you go,

"Oh, great." They're going to tell me to

sleep in a quiet room that's cold and

dark and they're like, "I've heard it

all." And you have. Where we need to get

to next is how do we help people find

these precision solutions based on their

type of sleep issues. But that's that's

the three-part reason uh why this stuff

is happening. I'd like to go into all

three of them. I also would like to just

pause on the diagnosis part because

there'll be people listening here that

might have a suspicion that they need

help. But again, they're going off their

feelings.

>> Yeah.

>> How can they know for sure what help

they need and what their problem is?

>> Yeah. I always start with subjective.

How do you feel? If you feel good, let's

now like immediately take a breath.

>> You have good energy. You wake up. You

feel good. Like everyone's going to be a

little bit tired.

We also don't we've actually had a I've

been working with for several years a

very close friend of you and I. We

constantly have to battle because he'll

just get like really honestly terrified

because he gets sleepy at the end of the

day. And I'm like bro that's the point.

People that are hard chargers, high

performers are actually afraid of being

tired. We have to recognize and realize

that is natural and needed. You need to

feel a little bit sleepy in the early

afternoon and you should feel tired,

unmotivated, lack of focus at the end of

the day.

>> What if I didn't used to? Because that's

what people they compare it to old

version of themselves.

>> Sure. Again, we can say natural. When

you are sub 25,

like you're you're just a powerhouse,

right? When you're past 25, we shouldn't

just accept frailty. We shouldn't accept

a permanent decline. But we do have to

start to realize we're not going to have

the energy of a 20-year-old. Like it's

just it's just not typically super

realistic. And if you do, you're

probably getting there exogenously,

right? Stimulants and other things which

have a place, but we just want to be a

little bit careful of those things.

>> We'll talk about stimulants, melatonin,

and all these things. But going back to

this point of diagnosis, yeah.

>> So Jenny who doesn't have much money.

>> Y

>> how does she get

>> Okay, great. So one thing we can do and

we can put these in your show notes for

you for free. There are a ton of

completely free short questionnaires

that are scientifically validated.

>> Okay?

>> You can do these for RLS, you can do

them for insomnia, you can do them for

apnea, you can do them for circadian

disruptions and disorders, you can do

them for chronoype. Are you a a morning

person or tons and I'll put as many of

these for free. So my answer there would

be start with one of those.

>> Okay.

>> If you flag that and you want to move up

to the next step, then you kind of have

a couple of different ways. And your two

options are what we'll call wearables at

home tech. These are typically we'll

call the $100 to $600 range.

>> Mhm.

>> And then past that, you have a true

medical option, which is a sleep

hospital. This is when you would go

into, you know, the hospital, you go

into that weird room, and you sit there,

you get all the wires, someone looks at

you through a window, you sleep in for

one night. You can see from the look on

your face sort of, you're just like,

"All right, who wants to do that?"

>> Mhm. If you have a true disease at this

point, for the most part, the sleep

hospital, depending on the disease, it

is where you need to get to. Now, what

our group is working on and others is

can we bring the sleep possible into the

home. It's not super affordable at this

point. We're working to get it there,

but that is the clear future. If you

have insurance, take that validated

questionnaire I just said. Go to your

doctor and say, "Here's what I scored

this thing. Will you order me that sleep

study?" Mhm.

>> is a giant pain. I know it, but it is it

is probably worth it. If you want to use

the wearable, you can do that. The

problem with the wearables is numerous.

They are awesome at things like

awareness, at accountability, right?

They're pretty good for things like

total sleep time. They're really, really

bad. And a major pitfall for wearables

is predicting things like deep sleep and

REM sleep. Do you know what I you know I

was I was thinking about I was thinking

about certain times where um I've done

certain things behaviorally and then I

got in bed woke up feeling terrible and

my wearable said to me

>> you had a bad really bad night's sleep

and I could kind of put two and two

together and kind of establish cause and

effect and I could almost I guess test

that then going forward and say okay

don't do that or maybe get in bed

earlier or the heat was was way too high

whatever it might be and I could sort of

AB test my way to a better outcome.

Yeah. So they can give you things like

total sleep time. As I said, what you

want to be careful of are the

aggregate sleep effectiveness score,

sleep quality score. That's the stuff

that directionally won't be there. But

you actually said something interesting

a second ago, which is you felt worse.

>> Mhm.

>> That's the only directional thing we

need to have to pay attention to. If you

go, "Wow, I felt worse today."

>> And then you can go backwards and go,

"Yeah, that's because I did A, B, and C

yesterday or I felt better today."

That's not the only metric. And to be

really clear, I'm not advocating to

ditch all the wearables. We use them

extensively.

It's just really being careful about

what data from those we pay attention

to.

>> Mhm.

>> And what we don't. So stuff that we do

now is find big themes

that they're often times missing. Here's

a good example. We had 1,200 days of

data from I think it was an aura ring.

And we are actually able to find that in

in one of our clients for every one drop

in resting heart rate. So his resting

heart rate say went from 65 beats per

minute to 64.

He got six more minutes of sleep.

And so we were like, "Okay, great. You

want to add an hour to your sleep. Let's

continue to work on your cardiovascular

fitness." Every time he got more fit,

his resting heart rate dropped. He slept

more. Additionally, every time you put

and you invest in down regulation,

you'll lower your resting heart rate

going into bed. You will sleep longer.

So, he was a classic case of like, I try

to go to bed, I do all the things, but I

just can't stay in bed. So, the key

there to get him the more sleep is to

put his physiology in a position that

would allow him to have more sleep. And

for him, like that was the canary in the

coal mine. So, that's the type of stuff

where wearables can be like you can't

replace that. Not only from a data, but

from a coaching perspective. It was so

easy for me to communicate to him,

here's your data.

This is our target. And he's an

extraordinarily busy person. He's like,

great, I got one thing to pay attention

to. Do whatever it takes to keep that

heart rate low going into bed. Copy

that.

>> What in his case was making his heart

rate high.

>> When it comes to something like sleep,

anything that is in your physical

environment, that's in your lifestyle,

that's in your physiology can impact it.

I mentioned earlier one of the reasons

why sleep is getting worse is because

these physical changes in our

environment. annual spend on sleep is

like 600 billion right now, but yet we

have seen a 60inute drop in total sleep

time over the last 60 years. So you're

seeing an inverse. We're spending more

on sleep and sleep is getting worse. I

think your team printed out some cards

here and we can go through them. The

first one is a really good one. The

world is physically brighter. In fact,

there's data from NASA satellite data

that can look and say the world is

physically brighter now. you're expected

to be communicating with Singapore and

Australia and the US, which means you're

going to be up later. Your business is

going to be on. Your lights are going to

be on. There's also a phenomenon called

skylow, where the light from Earth is

going up, hitting the clouds, and being

shot back down. And so, it's keeping our

world brighter. So, when you hear people

talk about things like you got to have

these blackout curtains and masks, and

you're thinking like, I never did that

when I was a kid. Like, what's the big

deal? It's because of this. I mean

there's some graphs that I found here.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Which kind of demonstrate this which

I'll put up on the screen.

>> Yeah. More people are moving into urban

environments. And if you look at some of

the studies, not to be dramatic, but

some of the studies have found things as

high as like anxiety and depression are

up 20 plus% when you move into the city.

And that's largely attributed to things

like light and sound. It's extremely

bright and extremely loud in cities. It

doesn't mean they're bad or you can't

live in them. It just simply means

that's why you have to take extra steps.

I think a lot of people listening to

this will think, "Well, Andy, my my

bedroom's very dark."

>> Great.

>> But that's actually not what you're

saying, is it? Because the way I was

thinking about it is we are here in New

York City now, and if I walked to the

shop last night at 10:00 p.m.

>> Yeah.

>> and walked back, I was exposed to so so

much light outside at a critical time

when my body should be not exposed to

light that it's going to impact me even

when I get into that dark room.

>> It goes even better than that. There's

evidence now that the light exposure you

have both in the morning and throughout

the day dramatically counteracts what

you just mentioned. So yes, you went for

that walk, you went for that thing when

light was still out and you had a

brighter light exposure in we'll just

call it the 3 or 4 hours before bed than

you would have had ever in the past.

>> Mhm.

>> But you can mitigate that damage by

seeing light appropriately during the

day and in the morning.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And and this is actually something my

friend

Andrew Huberman has talked about for

years now and I'm like I've always joked

and laughed at him but then I'm like

damn he nailed this. Like he was way

ahead in this one. Light exposure in the

morning will impact your sleep at night

the next day. He always explains it as

setting your circadian rhythm but it's

more than that actually. It's like

that's the part where I was like yeah

whatever. Like I'm in the same time

zone. Why do I care? But now I'm like,

"Oh." Because then if you were exposed

to high amounts of light later in the

day, that exposure to light earlier will

help reduce that damage.

>> There's this whole cascade of things

that influence when it is time to be

awake and when it is time to go to

sleep. And this is both hormonal based

as well as neurally based. So your brain

will shut down or activate in response

to light, in response to exercise, in

response to arousal, in response to

food, in response to stimulants and a

whole host of other things. That light

earlier in the day sets that rhythm.

>> Okay? So it's like starting the

>> it starts the clock. It starts the sleep

pressure. This is uh oh this is the

graph of rural versus urban plot. And so

yeah, I mean you can see that pretty

clearly. The red line here is the noise

in in a rural environment. And this is

the noise here. The typical number you

want to see um for sound at night is

like 35 dB, right? So if you see the

rural environment, you're cruising at

about that. And you see the urban

environment, you're looking in the 60 to

7 as a baseline.

>> And it really matters sound when you

sleep.

>> Tons.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. As much if not more of any other

factor that the big thing with sound is

inconsistency. A lot of people will do

things like uh put a sound machine in

the room.

>> Most people put them too loud because of

that thing. So you put them pretty

common default is like 40 to 50 dB for a

sound machine. More the data suggests

sub 40 especially for kids if you're

using a sound machine for your children.

Most people put them too close and too

loud.

>> What's a sound machine?

>> Uh just a little device that makes a

white noise. And what that does is it

cancels out a bunch of low-level

inconsistent sounds. Oh,

>> okay.

>> So the dog getting up, the window

creaking, the you know the car driving

by and so it can kind of cancel that

noise level out. How come I can have

like a great night's sleep listening to

a podcast falling asleep whereas my

partner can't? She needs silence and I I

I almost feel like I need to listen to

something to fall asleep.

>> Most likely you would do better if you

didn't do that.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> You turn them off before you go to

sleep, right?

>> No.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> That will never lead to your best sleep.

>> Okay.

>> What happens is you get to bed and

something is happening cognitively

>> and you're like, I need something to

switch me off

>> to distract me. Yeah.

>> Great. If we took that away from you,

you might sleep worse because you're

going to sit there and struggle through

that moment.

>> If you wanted to go from upgrade, we

would say, "Okay, let's figure out what

is actually a way for you to

downregulate cognitively,

give you that same thing that won't then

disrupt your sleep throughout the

night."

>> Have you dealt with people in that

situation before?

>> Super common. Podcasts are an incredibly

common one with that. Uh TV, books. My

philosophy is let's step back and solve

causes. Let's solve constraints rather

than mask them. Uh you've got a host of

different supplements over here.

Everything you see in this table has

moderate to strong scientific evidence

that it will help with sleep.

>> What are those things?

>> So lovely, delicious looking tart cherry

juice and I'll go through why that is.

There you've got some chamomile tea. You

would see this in a supplement form of

apogenine. It's a really common way of

that as kind of like distilled

chamomile. Um look at these lovely

kiwis. What's funny here is this is

actually what happens in in research.

They will give people two to three

kiwis. They will eat them right before

bed and you will very routinely see

people sleeping better after ingestion

of kiwis.

Um other things that are high on the

evidence-based list are of course

magnesium and various forms. More of the

research now on magnesium for sleep is

turning to a particular form called

magnesium bislycinate

um rather than 38. That's up there as

well. Uh, you will also see things like

omega-3. This is your common fish oil.

Oh, this is actually interesting because

this popped up on your labs as something

we have to work on.

>> Oh, my test.

>> Yeah, we'll come back to that in a

second.

>> Okay.

>> And then of course you've got melatonin,

right? The issue with all these is the

same that you have with your podcast.

These are doing the exact same thing.

So, one thing we could do is say ditch

the podcast and let's go with one or

multiple of these options because

they're doing the same thing. They're

cognitive turnoff. Apen or chamomile

specifically will play that role. It is

a reasonable switch that says frontal

cortex turn off. And so, you're getting

there through the podcast where you

could get through theirs through food or

supplements if you'd like as well.

>> Kiwis, Kiwis have scientific evidence

that they improve sleep for some people.

It's really common. If there's like

levels to this, you'd probably like

level one, two, and three. Level one

being things like actually surprising

enough magnesium, chamomile, melatonin,

of course, lots of randomized control

trials.

>> Level one being the best,

>> the best of the best,

>> the best, highest quality.

>> And you'd say what? Magnesium, kiwis.

>> Yeah, kiwis would probably be like a

level two or level three.

>> Okay.

>> So, there's been good studies on them

enough to put them on this table. Enough

to say there's data there. So, you're

getting some product below it. In this

case, epigenine, in this case, other

phyitochemicals

that either reduce a little bit of

cognitive function, they reduce arousal,

they put you in some sort of checkout

state.

>> And then there's this one over here,

melatonin. Yeah.

>> That a lot of people are aware of.

>> Yeah.

>> Strong. What level is melatonin?

>> So melatonin probably has more evidence

than the rest of these things combined

because it's a medicine. It's a drug.

There's a ton of research on it from

children to aging to bone health and

tons of other stuff, right? It's a

hormone. You're going to be able to to

move some units with this one. Um,

nobody is going to be super concerned

about risk factor profiles with eating

two kiwis,

>> but you start getting to the level of

something like a melatonin and now you

have to have real conversations about

risk versus benefits. We typically don't

use melatonin

at the dosage that's normal. So a common

dosage for melatonin is like 5

milligrams, sometimes even up to 10.

>> Wow.

>> We will typically use like.3

maybe 0.5. So about a tenth that dose. A

lot of times we're trying to find like

one milligrams, cut them in half, kind

of things like that. The only real

reason we use melatonin outside of some

fringe cases is when we actually

legitimately need to reset circadian

rhythm, travel, jet lag,

things like that. Uh and it is effective

and it is useful there. It is safe in

small doses. Where people mistake

melatonin is I use it every night to go

to sleep and or I wake up in the middle

of the night, can't go back to sleep, I

go grab a melatonin.

>> Why is that bad?

>> It doesn't work.

>> It doesn't work.

>> No, because the thing that melatonin is

supposed to do is realign circadian

rhythm. If you're in the middle of the

night, you're already in that rhythm.

It's not going to do anything. You would

in fact, not to not want people to do

this, but you would actually be better

reaching for something like a chamomile

perhaps because if you're having a hard

time getting back to sleep cognitively,

this is not going to do it. The other

issue is we've done a lot of morning

urine testing. There's enough studies

that look at the dosage that's actually

in the pill versus on the label and they

can be up to 100x higher.

>> 100x.

>> And we see this in morning urine. We

have seen people who are consistently

tired.

Their sleep doesn't look horrible.

They're doing all the right things. It's

cold. It's dark. They're meditating.

They're doing all this stuff. They're

popping in even a moderate dose of

melatonin. And the amount of melatonin

the next day in their urine is 100x the

upper end of the reference range, which

means they're spending the rest of their

next day in a hyperdosed melatonin

state. So they have to live then on

stimulants to get better.

>> How would they feel and horrible?

>> They would feel sluggish and

>> you wake up the next day and you're

like, man, it's what we call sleep

inertia.

>> You're wildly groggy. You can't get out

of bed or you're just getting throughout

the day. This is a like don't talk to me

until I've had my coffee kind of

response, right? This is not a normal

waking physiology that you should be

going through.

>> Presumably, that's just melatonin from

sort of cheap sources that haven't been

tested. That's going to knock off a huge

part of your problem, right? Only this

is why we'll always say you don't, no

one needs supplements. Like no essential

person needs to have any supplement to

live a great happy healthy life. If you

choose to use supplements though,

just buy them from third-party tested

transparent

companies that place their testing on

their websites that give you open access

to it for for these exact reasons.

Vitamin D's has a similar profile of

inaccuracy. The other issue with that

then simply let's say you're buying it

from a high quality source. You're

dosing it too much and you're taking it

too late. So take it earlier than you

think before bed so that your body has a

chance to break it down before the next

morning.

>> What kind of time and how quickly acting

is it?

>> It's person to person dependent, but a

lot of times you'll see things like an

hour before. Uh some people will feel a

response in 10 to 15 minutes. Some

people will feel it closer to an hour.

But that's a pretty good window.

>> Hang on. If it's 2 a.m. in the morning

and you're and you're getting in bed,

don't take it. Don't take it at all.

>> Okay,

>> we're going to use this in very specific

situations and then we're coming off of

it. This is this should not be a part of

your nightly routine most of the time.

>> What exactly is going on in my brain

when I take melatonin? Cuz a lot of

people take it and we know that it makes

us feel tired but but understanding the

mechanism I think will help us under

understand the application.

>> So it actually doesn't really make you

feel tired. That's part of the issue.

>> Oh

>> the mechanism is a circadian shift. So

it's telling your indogenous system that

this is nighttime. So it doesn't hit you

with like a oh my eyes are there. This

hits you with a shift in cortisol. This

hits you with a shift in a whole cascade

of epinephrine, norepinephrine,

serotonin that are moving around and

saying this is the millu that you need

to be in that is consistent with a sleep

pattern.

>> Okay. So, I take it and then it

regulates my other hormones which would

be getting in the way of me feeling

tired theoretically.

>> That's probably more appropriate to what

it does.

>> Okay. Because yeah, I've taken it a

couple of times again always for jet lag

issues and within about 30 45 minutes I

feel a bit drowsy and then I find my

eyes going shutting and I'm off.

>> Great. And then you get out of those

that 2 or 3 day window,

>> put it back away and you're off and

going. That's a good use case for it.

The mistake is when this is like I can't

go to bed without

>> I'm generally scared of all these things

because um

>> honestly anything that's effective I'm

more scared of

>> and so sure

>> it's really effective which makes me

hesitant to use it frequently.

>> Yeah,

>> it's a good default position to be in by

the way.

>> It's a good strategy.

>> Yeah, cuz I one of the things you learn

from doing a podcast like this is you

just learn that everything has a

trade-off

>> always.

>> And I and again this might not be

logically sound but I assume that the

bigger the upside the bigger the tra

like the trade I'm making on the other

side as a general rule. So, do you know

the only thing that I've still not been

able to, I guess, understand the full

trade-off of is coffee

>> because the upside is so significant. No

one can articulate to me the downside

other than they say if you have it after

midday, it's going to

>> impact your sleep. But I'm like, come

on, there's got to be.

>> The phrase that I'll say in my class all

the time is there's no free passes in

physiology.

>> Mhm.

>> With coffee specifically, there actually

we have a meta analysis led by my

colleague Dr. Ben House puts this

together. But if you look at the

research on caffeine and sleep, it's

very interesting because if you go

through sleep deprivation, your physical

and cognitive performance goes down. No

surprise there. Coffee can offset that.

Caffeine specifically is is the thing.

But what it doesn't do, at least the

data and the meta analysis suggests, is

it doesn't actually put you back into

the augmented spot. Meaning if you did

you sleep great last night?

>> I think so. Yeah.

>> Full night. Okay. Let's just say you're

there. If we took you out and we had you

throw that medicine ball and we did a

grip strength tester and we did what

some sprints up and down or whatever you

wanted to do, you would perform well.

And then if we gave you caffeine, you'd

perform better. It's why we call it

erggoenicate. It's a performance

enhancer. Caffeine is really effective

primarily at endurance based events, but

it is a stimulatory thing that people

will use. So let's just say you have

normal baseline performance, then

caffeine augments that performance. If

you go into sleep debt, the sleep itself

will reduce your performance. And the

coffee can bring you back to normal, but

it won't bring you back to that

augmented state that you had when you

were rested and caffeinated. This is

important because a lot of people will

be like, "Ah, I'll throw away the sleep

or I won't worry about it as much

because I'll just take more stimulants

tomorrow and I feel great." You will

feel as good, but you will not perform

as well. So, what you need to perform at

your best if you're a caffeine user is

to be both well-rested and then

caffeinated. Another thing you want to

pay attention to in your sleep

environment, um, labeled ergonomics here

is your pillow, your bed, your mattress.

This is mostly

based on feel.

>> Is there any no- go in this regard?

>> Not really.

>> Not really.

>> No. Unless, let's say you have a

sleeping partner and you're sleeping in

a bed that is too small and that results

in you hitting each other or touching

each other and you don't like that. So

other than those uh the framework

themselves there there's really no

nothing to be concerned with.

>> What about these like eight beds?

>> Asleep is fantastic. So asleep is not a

bed it's a cover

>> which regulates temperature. If you are

in a bedding situation where you're

getting hot then that's a problem. So if

then an eight will help you regulate

that temperature it's a great solution.

If you're not in that situation then

you're going to be just fine. So

temperature regulation is a really big

deal

>> and you'll quite often see people that

do that. Whether that's getting a

product like that or it's getting a

sheet that's cooler or a mattress that

is better with ventilation, then you'll

often times see them sleep a little bit

better. Next on our list is screen

usage. Everyone has been told and you

know perhaps nothing's more destructive

when you're sleeping screen. What's more

interesting here is the stuff that

people generally don't talk about. It's

not the fact that necessarily screen

usage is shooting your face with a bunch

of blue light. What's more dangerous

about your screen is the arousal

associated with the search for novelty.

>> The search for novelty. What does that

mean?

>> You're engaging in a podcast,

social media, a game is puzzle driven.

It is solution. It is interest. It is

engagement. It is search for the next.

That's the stuff that more likely than

not cause sleep disturbance

disturbances.

In the studies that have looked at

things like TV time versus tablet versus

phone versus reading, those all can be

equally dangerous to sleep. Here is the

example. I am a TV before bed guy. A

giant TV with a blast of blue light. I

sleep great with that. My wife is really

struggles with light before bed. she

will read and yet she chooses to read

things that I don't think she should be

reading for a night and then she'll wake

up because of the topics that she's

reading where I'm watching things on TV

that are you know documentaries on

Ulysius Grant or something and you're

just like that is the least engaging

thing ever. So it's not the fact that

the light is there. Um I use that stuff

much like you use your podcasts which is

my entire day is so driven by somebody

wanting my attention and time. I have to

have something that gives me a cognitive

switch that says you get to turn off.

>> I wanted to add something to this which

I've been thinking about this week. So

in Meta, Meta own Instagram and Facebook

and WhatsApp etc. In Meta's earnings

call this week, Mark Zuckerberg talked

about how they had changed the

recommendation algorithm on social media

apps using AI. And this was something

that we've always forecasted would

happen and we've been thinking about the

creator economy and how it would impact

it. But specifically for people

listening, what essentially he said is

every time you post something on

Instagram, whether it's a real or or a

normal post, they now feed it to a large

language model, an AI, and the AI

effectively, and again, I'm summarizing

here, watches it, and it can now

understand the full context of what it's

watching. So, if it's watching a clip of

you and me right now, it'll understand

that that is Andy Galpin. He's holding a

card, he's wearing a black t-shirt, he's

it'll look at the transcript, it'll know

what you said. And this is all pertinent

because it then can without in the past

needing to look at the caption and the

hashtags, it can then decide with way

more context than ever before who

exactly would want to see that. And the

net impact of that for for the user of

Instagram or these other social media

apps or Tik Tok or whatever it is, is

you're going to be more retained now

than ever before. And as you were

talking about that, I thought, I wonder

if they think about timing of day. Like,

I wonder if they think at 11 p.m.

there's a certain thing that's going to

keep Andy scrolling versus something at

9:00 a.m. when you're off to work. And

of course they do because that and you

know they were talking about on the

earnings call Mark was saying how it's

increased retention by I think 15 basis

points. And there's this quote where he

said there are already two large sets of

content to draw from. first from your

friends and people you follow and second

from creators that you don't follow. But

now there's going to be a whole new and

nearly infinite universe of personalized

content which from that I infer what

they're saying is with their new large

language model called Muse is we're

actually going to make new content to

show Andy Galpin

>> that no one made no humans made. We're

going to make stuff that we know Andy

will like. And so I say all this to say

that in this sleep conversation, we've

been talking about as creators. We've

been saying basically it's going to get

really difficult if you're a creator

because now if you have a million

followers, it doesn't matter. No, if

Jenny has zero followers, but she makes

something that is contextually more

interesting than the million follower

guy, Jenny's thing is going to see be

seen to everyone. But actually now

you're going to be competing with an AI

that's going to be churning out super

personalized Andy Galpin content.

>> Like that just Andy would just love at

11 p.m.

>> I said to my team this week, I was like,

just take care of yourself. Do you know

what I mean? Just be aware, you know,

when you open your phone that the AI is

doing everything it can to retain you.

>> Yeah. I mean, just don't be on your

phone. We've been making this argument

for years, but gez, um, you got every

disadvantage possible coming in your

way. And and look, we're all human. I I

think I remember

last time I was here, you were talking

about how like you wake up and your

phone's right there, but your your

fiance like doesn't touch your phone for

the first hour of the day or something.

and it's just like on the charger until

noon or something. You're just like,

"What? I'm more like you." Right? I'm

like, "My phone is in my room. It's not

three rooms. Like, I'm just not doing

any of that stuff." Right? And we

started this entire piece by saying the

environment you're in is just different

than it's ever been before. And it's not

getting any better. And at some point,

you have to make that decision of

do you care about your own health? Do

you care about the thing the next day

that you didn't do well? And you care

more about that than you cared about

that next reel.

>> What is it that's causing us to

understand everything you just said, but

to ignore it and to pick up our phone

anyway?

>> You are hard driven through the entire

biology of our species to search for

novelty.

In fact, I I look at this from the lens

of sports. Why do you care about high

achievement? Why do I care about

performance? There has direct

translation. When someone breaks a

barrier,

we all benefit from that. And I could

give you direct examples of this. But we

have every story. You want to go to

Joseph Campbell heroes journey, right?

You want to go back to Hercules, the

story of the marathon. Like you pull any

story from history out and what are you

actually looking at? You're looking at

somebody did something that no one has

ever done before. You care more about

records

than you do regular wins and losses.

Why? because they're novel.

Why are you more interested in watching

Messi break that record

than you are the other team winning in

the exact same shot?

It's because you saw something. You got

to be there when someone did something

for the first time in human history.

>> I get more of a dopamine hit from the

novelty, from the new thing.

>> It's more than the dopamine hit, though.

It's a sense of purpose. Your life

mattered

because you got to be involved in

something no one else has ever seen. And

even as that bystander on TV 30,000

kilometers away, you got to be a part of

that. And that all comes down to we are

so wired

to reward novelty.

So then now that comes back to your life

and you have to be thinking how do you

walk away from that core drive? thinking

about a study I read about in psychology

class in school with pigeons getting

variable rewards.

>> I'm going to butcher this, but bear with

me. They took a pigeon and they got a

little lever for it to press and every

time it would press the lever and

sometimes it would get a reward. And

they found from the study that if they

made the rewards variable, i.e. it

couldn't predict when it was coming, the

pigeon was more likely to keep pressing

the lever, i.e. it was more addicted to

the behavior if it didn't know when the

dopamine hit was coming or the the treat

in that case. Scrolling on social media

is kind of like the slot machine of

variable rewards. I just don't know what

I'm going to get. But every fourth, you

know, scroll, I get something that

>> or every 40th.

>> Yeah. Orth better, right? Because the

more unpredictable it is,

>> the more likely you are to be like, "One

more, one more, one more, one more."

Right? Like, if it actually comes too

quickly, you care less.

>> So, you're going to scroll through all

the boring stuff, boring stuff, boring

stuff, boring stuff, boring stuff for

the one out of every 40 that gets you.

That's what you're actually there for. I

mean, if I gave most people and I said

like you can have $10,000

or you can have $10,000 in equity in a

startup.

I look at your face. Like I know what

you're doing, right?

You want to like people are it depends

on where you're at, right? But it's just

like okay. And if I said right now the

most likely scenario is that $10,000 is

go zero.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is what happens, right? You're

like kind of hedge. Can I go five and

five? like you're you're going to go you

don't you unless you need the 10 grand

which a lot of people do but you get the

point because you're like man walking

away from belief walking away from hope

walking away from what if is in insanely

hard to do.

>> I deleted one of these social media apps

just completely from my phone and

honestly you always think that you're

going to have like FOMO. You're not

going to know what's going on or there's

going to be some huge loss to your life

if you don't have an app on your phone.

And it's just remarkable when you delete

these some of these social media apps

how positive of a net impact it has on

your life.

>> I have a a friend of mine named Shaun

Ali, a famous UFC fighter. He was

sitting at his pool and he had his

daughter was like one or two years old

and he was like scrolling Twitter and

was like, "What am I doing?" Like my

daughter's over here in front of me.

He's 2 years old and like I'm on

scrolling like not doing work or not

making a post. Not like I'm just

scrolling.

dumped it was just like team you guys

handle it not on any social media more

>> so that screens

>> that's screens my friend another one to

think about which we've sort of touched

on is called the presence of other

beings this is our classic sleep divorce

I assume you uh as I do share your

sleeping environment with your partner

>> yes

>> tough to make the argument of like get a

sick divorce right

>> yeah I'm not telling her

>> you can tell that

>> it's funny if it was up to my if we

would have a sleep divorce.

>> You're joking.

>> No,

>> she's like, "Get away from me. Don't

touch me." She wants to like if we could

have separate beds in separate rooms,

she I don't snore earning, but she just

like

>> My fiance is the opposite.

>> It's not super realistic, but it is

true. There are data behind it. People

generally don't sleep as well when

you're in the same bed as others. The

realistic solution, try to get sheets or

a sleeping situation in which when one

partner moves, it doesn't roll the other

person.

>> Oh, like separate sheets. separate

sheets or simply the type of sheets.

>> Um my wife loves to be really

constricted so she likes the sheets

tucked in tight. She likes to bed and I

hate it. Like

>> I feel like I'm in Shaw Shank. I'm like

break me out like rip it all out of

there. So there's little things like

that that don't require you to buy

anything where you just change kind of

the the setup and the scenario to where

their movement doesn't impact you as

much. Um noise would be the same one. if

you are sleeping with somebody who makes

a lot of noise, tosses and turns a

bunch, um you could put a pillow in

between, so when they roll over and

move, they don't hit you, earplugs,

things like that. So, that one's a

pretty straightforward one, but that

said, it's pretty impactful. It can

really make a big difference. And if

you're really struggling,

maybe do a partial sleep divorce.

>> Okay.

>> Next, sleeping in new environment. Uh

this would oftentimes be called first

night effect. So your first night,

whether it's back home, whether it's in

a hotel or somewhere else, you don't

feel as comfortable and as safe. And

your circadian rhythms, the things that

set your timing, aren't there. This is

sound. This is light. This is feel. This

is temperature. This is smell. What you

can do if you travel a lot, our athletes

travel every 3 to 5 days, right? This is

what they do. You can try to mimic your

sleep environment at home on the road.

Some people will take their pillows.

Other things that are on the similar

list are smells like lavender.

Lavender is moderately associated with

helping people fall asleep. None of

those is going to like knock you out.

>> Mhm.

>> What you're looking to do is stack

winds.

Next is temperature. You want to be

cool. Generally, you're looking at 64 to

68 degrees. This is personally

dependent. Um, some people actually like

to be a little bit colder so that they

can have a heavier blanket because they

like that feeling. When this idea got

popular a bunch a few years ago, people

just started raking the ACs, right?

You're just like, get the room as cold

as you possibly can. That can become a

problem because we're seeing this

somewhat consistency where when people's

air conditioners kick on, it actually

wakes them up. And as we talked about

earlier with noise, it's not necessarily

always about the volume, but it's the

change,

>> okay,

>> in sound. And so you have something

kicking on, kicking off, kicking on,

kicking off. The other thing we see is

because of air quality situations, uh,

we've seen quite often when we have

environmental sensors and stuff that if

your air conditioner is not clean and

the fan is out in there, you can

actually kick a bunch of dander and

particulates and other things into the

air and then you start breathing those

things in it overnight and your nose

starts to get a little bit stuffed up.

You can't breathe through your nose and

then boom, you have this hypopnic or

apnneic event. The last component that

comes up, you know, pretty often at

absolute rest is fans. This can make

your mouth dry. So, if you're waking up

with that and you're like, "Ah, I got to

get a drink of water or something." Um,

then maybe consider not having the fan

blow directly out your face.

>> An interesting thing I was thinking

about there, which is there was the uh

viral experiment done in 2009 by Mind

Lab sleep study where they conducted um

the sleep experiment at the University

of Sussex. Researchers hooked men and

women up to an ECG machine to measure

their brain waves and played a variety

of ambient sounds while they slept to

see which noises triggered an immediate

wake response. And the top wake

responses from men and women was

completely different. Men's top trigger

was a car alarm. Women's top trigger was

a baby crying. Men's top trigger was

wind howling outside. Uh women's second

top trigger, I should say, is a dripping

tap. Yeah.

>> Men's third top is buzzing or flying of

a mosquito. Uh women's was um shouting

outside. And both of their fourth top

trigger was snoring. But it was

interesting that the thing that woke

most men, their top trigger in that

study was an alarm outside, but women's

was a baby's crying. Yeah. Every mother

out there is gone. Yep. It's in in fact

one of the largest causes of sleep

disorders in women is having children.

what happens after child birth and and

it's a whole interesting field to hear

of uh postpartum care is really poor in

women like we just sort of like start

paying attention to baby stop paying

attention to mom as soon as baby comes

out well I'm saying that because it is

obvious and clear that the last

trimester can present a lot of sleep

challenges for women and then especially

as soon as a baby's there like you're

just going to have some known period of

sleep deprivation whether it's delivery

or having a newborn all that stuff and

that can actually cause patterns this

can cause insomnia. This can cause

irregular sleep schedules, circadian

disorders, natural things. Totally fine.

In some percentage of women, those

patterns will persist. And so, you'll

see women who have sleep disorders, even

with adult children that started because

of the child birth. We were advocating

at all times like, yeah, get through it.

I got two kids, you know, I've been

there. But then just make sure you're

you're providing care and going back to

try to fix those things. And why that is

difficult is because the study you just

mentioned

>> it's worth saying there is an

evolutionary theory behind this that

says you know men and women are attuned

to different things. But there's also a

counterargument that says the difference

in who actually wakes up and who gets

out of bed is often heavily driven by

social roles. Parenting expectations and

individual sleep depth rather than a

biological inability for men to hear the

baby. So how how do we close off on the

subject of sleep? Is there anything that

we haven't touched on that we should

have touched on as it pertains to how to

have incredible sleep? One thing that I

think will help everyone whether you're

at any of those stages free a little bit

of money or you got to go the full end

of the spectrum and use a hospital or a

service like ours

is everyone has the ability to run

self-experiments. We we have a a free

guide that anyone can go use and it's

just a a quick tutorial about how to run

your own self-experiment for sleep

specifically.

>> Oh, there you go. Yeah. Um so this is up

and available for free on our website.

Anyone can check it out. There's a lot

of stuff in here we've covered. You can

get more into it. But the short answer

of it is we don't want to make people

think sleep has to be the center of

their life. I often times when sleep

comes up, people start thinking, I'd

love to sleep more, but I'm too busy.

Hey, I'm the same boat. Like, I can't

afford to have a 12-h hour sleep

routine. What we should be paying

attention to is sleep resilience. Steve,

I want you to be as resilient to bad

sleep as possible.

I don't want you optimizing your sleep

because optimization turns into that

giant routine before bed. I got to take

12 different supplements and four

different cocktails and I got if I have

to do that along the way, great. The

endgame though should be resilient.

Meaning, you had a bad night of sleep,

cool, and you still performed.

We had this challenge. Flight got

delayed. Great. We still executed. I

want you to know how to get a good night

of sleep so you can feel as refreshed as

possible, execute the next day, and then

get right back onto it.

>> The way you get there is, and that's the

way our company works, like we're just

going to run a series of experiments.

And everyone can do that. Start by

changing one thing. Your trackers,

your data are going to tell you how

you're sleeping, but they're not telling

you why you're sleeping that way. So,

that's your quest. Go figure out why

you're sleeping that way. Is it your

bedroom temperature? Is it your partner?

Is it the fact that you're sensitive to

light? Is it the fact you're exercising

too late? Are you eating too late? Like,

all these things are possible.

One at a time. Just like Jon Jones,

where marginal improvements in your

cognitive performance can have a massive

impact. Sometimes I podcast for 10 hours

a day. Over the last couple of weeks,

I've been in filming for a TV show and I

have like one or two days off to get all

of my work done, which means there's

lots of cognitive load. And so I turned

to ketones because I find myself more

articulate, able to think more clearly,

able to work out better when I'm fueled

by ketones. And so the reason I became a

coowner of this company and the reason

why they now are a sponsor of this

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team members called Cristiana, she tried

it once and came up to my desk and she

goes, "This is the best product ever

made." And I think in part that's

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cognitive benefits as I do, as Jon Jones

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life. If you're thinking about starting

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There are a few reasons for this, but

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I guess one could argue that the

antithesis of sleep is being awake. And

when we're awake, the thing we care

about is energy. Now, I had a really

great conversation on this podcast with

um several people that talk about

mitochondria and energy and those kinds

of things. And some some of those

conversations have really really changed

me. If you hadn't haven't listened to

the more recent conversation we had on

um mitochondria on the channel, please

do go listen to it.

>> Martin Peard.

>> Martin Peard. It was a really honestly

it's one of my favorite conversations

I've had this year just because I've I

knew about the mitochondria like I I

conceptually knew what it was but I

hadn't thought about it as being so

central to everything in my life because

energy is essential to everything in my

life like my relationships, my ability

to do this, my my joy, my everything. If

someone is trying to improve their

energy levels and that's what they come

to you with in terms of a symptom that

they self-describe, where do you aim?

Okay, we talked about sleep, but where

else do you aim?

>> Energy is

probably the number one thing on our

list of reasons people come to us.

>> What do they say?

>> I'm tired all day, can't figure it out,

or I don't have the energy I used to

have, or I can't sustain output like I

used to. Whether this is physical, uh,

my recovery is longer than it used to

be, or I just can't hang working as many

hours as I used to do, I get fatigued at

the end of the day cognitively, I'm not

of the camp that this is entirely

mitochondria. But I certainly will agree

that energy would be the number one. In

fact, probably the most common question

I've ever got in my career is what

separates these world performers from

the rest of us? And people want me to

say things like they work harder. They

they don't. They are categorically

though better at energy management.

That is the one thing that seems to be

most consistent again with the world's

highest performers, athletes,

entrepreneurs, leaders, executives, you

name it, however you're defining

success. When you get better at managing

energy,

you're more effective. This is

everything from cellular energy to

understanding things like your own

interpersonal communication.

What type of relationships give you

energy? What type of relationships take

energy from you? What type of activities

give you energy? What types give you

back? When can you be more efficient?

When are you running for the sake of

running and not actually running in a

direction? And I mean this figuratively,

not literally.

This is all energy management. And what

you'll see is these people are

world-class performers. get incredibly

good at going 80% of my energy suck

comes out of here for 20% ROI. I'm going

to switch that out. They're better at

choosing what matters and what doesn't

matter.

>> Okay?

>> And this is everything from what

supplement is working to what type of

person that they work with. Where people

struggle is in the like what if I could

also be doing this? What if I could also

be doing this? What if I add this on

top? What if I add this on top?

>> Okay. So, I thought you were talking

about um I guess if I try and put this

into some sort of analogy or metaphor,

>> the high performers wake up with 100

energy chips, let's say, and they're

really really good at allocating them

against the most important thing.

>> Yes.

>> Whereas maybe Jenny and Dave listening

kind of let it seep out. They put 20 on

Instagram, 20 over here on this

>> and they spin their wheels.

>> They spin their wheels.

>> They go, "Okay, great. I'm going to I

listen to this podcast and I got super

excited about zone 2. I'm going to go

hop into a bunch of zone too. And then I

listen to this other podcast and I get

super excited about journaling. Let me

go add journaling to my mix.

>> And then what ends up happening is you

see their daily routine and you're like,

"Okay, your daily routine is 20 hours."

And then at some point like you didn't

actually do anything that mattered. What

is the one thing that can get you to

that goal in the most effective way

possible? And then everything else has

to actively be stripped away. So the

traditional thing we like to do is we

give one to two what we call active

movements per week which is this is

something Stephen you have to actively

remember to do. You don't actively

remember to brush your teeth. You don't

have to actively remember to shower blah

blah blah. You might at this point not

have to actively think about your

gratitude practice or your meditation

time. Like you probably have these

things you've been doing for years,

right? I don't actually call those

additive because you you do those.

You're going to get those in. But I

might ask you to do one thing different.

I don't know what that would be, but I I

would look at this and say, "Here's your

constraint. I'm not going to ask you to

do five things new. It's too difficult.

Maybe this is a change in what time you

eat."

>> Okay?

>> Your training style. Find what's

constraining you from your energy.

>> What things could it be?

>> It could be sleep. It could be

mismanagement of relationships. It could

be you're working too much. It could be

you're under fueling. You're not eating

enough. It could be that you're

overusing stimulants. sleeping poor and

you're in that cycle, right? It could be

you're not seeing sunlight. So, what you

need to do is run a a quick analysis and

think what is the single biggest thing

in your way. Is it the fact that you're

in pain?

Great. Maybe the only one thing I want

you to go after then is

let's go figure out why that knee hurts.

>> Okay. So, for me, you've seen my blood

results.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what things might improve my energy

from the blood results that you saw?

>> What are you mid-30s? Early 30s. and 33.

>> 33. All right. You're lean, you're

active. The first thing that jumps out

on your report.

>> Yeah. Can we skip that?

>> I think uh skip the page. You're going

to see quickly the difference between

medicine and performance.

>> Okay. Um this is medical. So, we're

looking at cholesterol and cholesterol

related markers. You've got I don't know

a dozen of them or so there. Not one's

good.

>> This is incredibly actionable.