this speaker is not on the program not

on the program but I did notice there

was a little bit of security here

today little extra security this is your

saxs red meat moment yes all right here

we go little red meat for Sachs uh

please welcome me in joining vice

presidential candidate jie

Vance let your winners

ride Rainman

David and instead we open source it to

the fans and they've just gone crazy

[Music]

with hey

guys man good to see you man how you

doing time all right see you hey

guys welcome so Zach is GNA introduce

you welcome to the Lions who who's here

with us Z well do we do we actually need

a a big introduction here but I'll I'll

give you I'll give a few um those of you

who are really bad at context clues I'm

JD Vance I'm running for vice

president and normally he's he's beside

his wife Usha but now you get that's

right she's at like the tarpits or

whatever yeah yeah oh yeah we brought a

three kids out here so she wanted to

take and see some fossil stuff so

they'll have fun good I'll say a couple

of things about JD because um he's a

friend I think what what I think um

really made me want to support JD for

for Senate and also for the VP position

is that I think he represents two you

could almost say

contradictions uh back in 2003 when JD

graduated from high school uh you know

this was after the Twin Towers had come

down and we gotten involved in the Iraq

War he was gung-ho to go fight America's

enemies and he enlisted in the Marine

Corps and went off uh to serve in in the

Middle East eventually he came to

realize that that war was a mistake and

I thought that

really represents uh one of the traits

that we really want in in a vice

president or someone next to the

president uh which is that he had the

patriotism and the courage to go serve

America but also the wisdom to realize

when America shouldn't get involved in a

war so I want to

[Applause]

just the the other uh like I said almost

contradiction that JD represents is that

he had worked in the tech industry he

had been a a venture capitalist he had

been in rooms like this and he

understands what it takes to make

America a more Innovative place at the

same time he comes from a part of the

the Midwest Appalachia that's a very

poor part of the country and did not

grow up in a privileged uh environment

at all and he still remembers those

people and he represents those people

and I think his ability to understand

both parts of the country makes him uh

I'd say a pretty unique political figure

so with that let me stop and do you want

to react to any of that uh well you know

first of all thanks to all for having me

I've been a big fan of the Pod for a

while I think my first appearance so

it's good to be with you you know I the

only thing I'll say to that David is I I

do think there is a deep connection

between the the poverty that I saw

growing up and the fact that our entire

economy is just less Innovative than we

pretend that it is and you know I know

you know Peter teal and Tyler K other

folks have talked about this but if you

look at the real innovation of the

American economy it's been in the world

of software if you look at where the

economy has been most stagnant it's been

in basically the heavily regulated parts

of the economy which is where 90% of the

people that I represent in the Senate

and 80% of the people that I hope to

represent as their vice president

actually make their living run their

business and go to work every single day

and I think that you know when I think

about tech one of the things I'd like us

to do is broaden the aperture a little

bit and think about innovation not just

in software but innovation in

transportation and Logistics and

Innovation uh in energy and the whole

Suite of things because unless our

economy is actually technologically

Innovative then the stagnant economy is

is fundamentally like the worst thing

and I think a lot of actually America's

pathologies right now stem from the fact

that we feel like we live in a very zero

some country because in some ways we do

right when when when the econom is

growing four 5 6% a year then Democrats

can kind of get what they want

Republicans kind can kind of get what

they want and it all makes sense if the

economy is growing between 0er and 1% a

year then I think it makes the whole

society and our political system a much

much much more insane and I think it's

kind of a subtext of what's been going

on in this country for the last 30 years

um let me start by going back a little

bit I think three of us um initially

would have been described sort of like

you know non-trump people yeah um and in

different ways and shapes and form we

were all V about it because of what was

presented to us through the filter of

the media and we've all gone through an

evolution in large part by meeting the

person and this is the first time

actually where a presidential candidate

I've known and I've kind of known a vice

presidental candidate in this case as

well get try you know they try to Corner

you and paint you in a certain way can

you just talk about what you realized

and the person that you got to know and

what it says about what we need to do so

that we don't get manipulated yeah so

first of all when Biden was running

against Trump one of the things the

media tried to do is to say well you

know you have these two guys who are a

little bit older than average and both

of them clearly aren't fully with it and

I would hear the media talk about Biden

like this and then talk about Trump like

this and it's like guys Donald Trump

remembers exactly what I said about him

n and a half years ago to the minute to

the day to the exact line like trust me

his memory is 100% there uh even if it

would be in more more in my interest if

it wasn't and you know what what what

changed for me I mean two things I mean

one Chim you just sort of hit on this is

a lot of the things the Press said about

Donald Trump and says about Donald Trump

are just straight up Fabrications and so

if you think the Press is like biased

that's one thing but if you think the

Press is fundamentally trying to tell

you the truth even if it's in a bias way

and then you realize that like Donald

Trump never called white supremacist

very fine people after Charlottesville a

total fabrication of the American Media

it's like okay what other things am I

hearing about Donald Trump that are

actually not true right the second thing

is you know and we talked about this a

little bit last night but look if you go

back to the date of my or the year of my

birth which is 1984 there's this chart

that's really interesting and it tracks

corporate profits the wages of workers

and the size of government and for

pretty much my entire life the wages of

workers were stagnant corporate profits

were going up and the size of government

was going up and there was a 4-year

period where the wages of workers

outpace the size of government corporate

profits it's the four years that Trump

was president and I think that we have

to like give some credit to where it's

due the policies actually

work and if you go into the presidency

saying I don't think Donald Trump's

going to be a good president and then lo

and behold he's the best president at

least in a generation it's like okay

time to change my mind admit to myself

but also to all the people who listen to

me I was wrong about Donald Trump he was

a hell of a good president of course I'm

running as his running mate I think

he'll do it again let's flip it around

now what what does it say about him that

he I mean how's that process of saying

JD you said this yes I did I changed my

mind I then but then he has to change

his mind so that says something so talk

us about that you know I think the the

president one thing I'll say about him

is the again the media perception of

Donald Trump is that he's like this

deeply AG grieved guy who holds really

terrible grudges the actual reality of

Donald Trump is that yeah he remembers

what you said about him because it's

like part of the inputs that he takes as

he tries to evaluate a human being but

most most importantly he's asking like

what what can you do now how can you

help the country now how can you help me

as I try to help the country now and I

think for whatever complicated set of

factors he decided that I was the guy

who could help him the most um but no I

mean it's it's it is interesting the

perception of him as this guy who holds

grudges he selected a guy who was very

much a Critic of his back in 2015 as his

running mate clearly something doesn't

make sense and I think that what doesn't

make sense is this idea that Trump is

more motivated by grievance than he is

by the public interest he's actually

much more motivated by the public

interest that's the truth that's awesome

you're um thanks for coming of course um

you're going to replace um Mike Pence uh

as I hope so yeah as

uh GNA be a close election but um if you

do um Mike Pence um your new boss Trump

is a little upset at Mike Pence because

Mike Pence refused to uh overturn in the

election results and um

if you were in that same position what

would you do would you have overturned

the election results well I think it's

let me take itue with the premise a

little bit Jason because I don't think

the argument was Mike Pence could

overturn the election results I think

the argument was that Mike Pence could

have done more whether you agree or

disagree Mike Pence could have done more

to sort of surface some of the problems

in the election would you have not

certified the El well I I think that

what I would have done I mean look I I I

happen to think that there were issues

back in 2020 particularly in

Pennsylvania even you know some of the

courts that refused to throw out

certified ballots did say that there

were ballots that were cast in an

illegal way they just refused to

actually decertify the election results

in Pennsylvania do I think that we could

have had a much more rational

conversation about how to ensure that

only legal ballots are cast yes and do I

think that Mike Pence could have played

a better role yes but I again the the

the two premises that I take issue one

is one pence was not asked to overturn

the election he couldn't have

but two the reason asked to not certify

it sure so would you have certified it

last year for the third again I would

have asked the states to submit

alternative slates of electors and let

the country have the debate about what

actually matters and what kind of an

election that we have states to be clear

I would have asked the states to submit

alternative slate to that's that's what

I would have done again I've said that

publicly many times but again Jason the

important part is we would have had a

big debate and it doesn't necessarily

mean the results would have been any

different different but we at least

would have had the debate in

Pennsylvania and Georgia about how to

better have a rational election system

where legal ballots are cast and again I

I you know look I have no personal

problem with Mike Pence I've never

really talked to him um but I think that

the idea that the reason Mike Pence

isn't on board with Donald Trump is over

the election of 2020 that's the other

thing I want to take issue with Jason

because I think in reality that if

Donald Trump wanted to start a nuclear

war with Russia Mike Pence would be at

the front of the line endorsing him

right now and fundamentally the reason

the old guard of the Republican party

hates Donald Trump it's not because of

January the 6 2021 whatever your views

on it it's because Donald Trump doesn't

think that we should start stupid Wars

in foreign countries and that's why they

all hate

him can I I have a fall on that let me

continue my line of questioning then

I'll give it to you because I want to

hear JD's since he's here I've heard

yours many times um so uh how many how

many followups how many follows are you

going to have about January 6 we 2

minutes talking about I want to hear

David especially if he gets me out of

answering

so I think we've you've had like three

follow-ups on on J first of all freeberg

you never got a chance to ask your

question I want to talk about let's

let's talk about January 6 for the next

45 minutes I'm sure the most important

thing going on in the country right now

can we talk about policy for a minute

that'd be great okay I'd love that I

I'll just I'll just reflect back on your

comment about government growth compared

to wage growth compared to corporate

profits there's only so much Capital it

gets sucked up somewhere right there's

competing interests that suck Su it up

the government is a competing interest

that sucks up Capital fundamentally the

government has been successful in

sucking up capital and ultimately the

government has been proven time and

again to be the least efficient way to

grow the economy of allocating capital

allocators or labor and um Trump has

made this commentary that Elon who's

going to be here later today should come

in and help rightsize the government

you've now you've now spent a few years

as a senator this is my most distressing

issue right of all the panic attacks I

have that Jason teases me about it's

government spending the debt level and

ultimately you reach a Tipping Point I

believe in democracies where the

government is

spending uh most more people are

dependent on the government than are not

and that ultimately leads to a very bad

outcome for democracy that's how I feel

and So based on what you've seen as a

senator now for the last few years and

based on the commentary that Elon where

where would you go in you know cut where

where's the most kind of efficiency

gaining opportunity that we can kind of

execute against without needing to go

and negotiate with Congress what's the

opportunity ahead for the executive

branch to rightsize government to make

things more efficient to hold things

accountable to improve the way that the

government is functioning which I think

ultimately leads to better economic

growth and opportunity for Innovation

because Capital flows to the right

places so I agree with you and let me

just say let me say two things and I'll

try to answer briefly because I know

there are a lot of topics that we can

get through so so number one is one of

the things that our government should do

obviously I think it should be doing

less than it currently does but what it

does I want it to do well

and most importantly I want the critical

social welfare functions of our

government to go to the people who

actually deserve to be here so as United

State Senator I have asked multiple

staff members I've asked officials in

various government departments if you

take the give or take 25 million illegal

aliens that are here in this country

right now how much money do we spend on

illegal aliens every single year in this

country and I've gotten estimates that

range between a100 billion a year to

$600 billion a year and where does that

money come from well it comes from

Healthcare benefits even though illegal

aliens aren't entitled to section 8

housing their children are entitled to

section 8 housing there's also a lot of

Social Security fraud a lot of Medicare

fraud so one thing that we could save a

lot of money on is actually focusing our

national interest on American citizens

people who deserve to be here we'd save

a lot of money that way that'd be a huge

7.3 trillion budget what do you estimate

that impact to be well again and I'm

trying to do that scene in the movie

Dave they go in and they just like line

up like nope no or like no pulled

everything off the board if you call it

a $ 1.7 trillion deficit right uh again

it's between $100 billion to $600

billion depending on how you cut the

numbers now the the other thing about

that just to answer your question about

efficiency is I think the government

procurement process especially in

military equipment is really broken uh

if you go back to Eisenhower's warning

about the military industrial complex I

mean I I was a seed investor in andil I

imagine you guys have some andil people

here today um great lucky here great

yeah great great chat you know one of

the things that that company as as I as

you know I haven't talked to to the guys

about the details of their business in

the LA in the last few years but one of

the things that they founded the company

on was the idea that the procurement

process was broken and that is

definitely true in the you know we do

way too much cost plus procurement and

way too little actual spurring of

innovation and what it ends up meaning

is that our equipment isn't as good as

it should be and we end up spending a

lot more money than we should be I

actually do think you could cut the

American defense budget and make our

country stronger but you would have to

make the procurement process much more

efficient now that's a big thing to

tackle but that's what we're in this

business do you pass legislation to do

that I don't know that you have to pass

legislation but you really as a

president and vice president you have to

be willing to take on some very powerful

defense contractors and that's something

that I know president Trump and I very

much want to do and how would you like

your role as vice president to be cast

differentially from how other vice

presidents have have operated what would

your role as an individual be just

speaking about I want to do all of the

good things and none of the bad things

that's my goal as as vice president

that's so the ribbon cuttings of the new

federal like I mean look I mean

obviously joking but the the reality is

that I I want to be a second set of eyes

and ears for the president's agenda

right one of the things that was true

and he will tell you this the first time

he was he was President of the United

States is there were people in

government there were people in his own

Administration that he was a newcomer to

politics he didn't fully trust everybody

who was around him we want to build a

team who's actually aligned on the

agenda because agree or disagree with

Donald Trump on a specific policy issue

assuming the American people make him

the next president pres and I think that

they will that is the next president and

his policy determinations should dictate

the executive administration of

government if they don't we don't have a

real democracy and by the way just not

to weigh back into January 6 territory

like what is a bigger threat to American

democracy is it that we had a big fight

about some of the uh some of the

certification in January the 6 and of

course you had some riers at the capital

or is it that for example The Joint

Chiefs of Staff didn't obey the

president of the United States on Troop

redeployment in Syria which actually

happened during Trump's Administration

like if we're going to talk about

threats to democracy we need the

government to be responsive to the

American people's elected president if

you don't have that you don't have a

real democracy how

[Applause]

much a lot of this if you design it in

one way has to go through Congress which

as we know is sclerotic and mayic

nothing can happen and then the other

path is for you guys to go ham a little

bit and say okay what can we do with

executive order have you had a chance to

discuss if you

win repositioning the focus as basically

that what is the totality of everything

that we can do from the White House from

the oval and then getting all of these

and the other thing that we should talk

about at some point is like it's like a

Avengers movie now at this point you

Bobby Kennedy Elon Trump so

but I don't the Justice League the

Justice League I I don't know which

character in that Justice League I am no

but but the point is like you know have

you had that discussion about like all

right folks let's not wait for Congress

and get a plan ready starting day one of

all the stuff that can happen through

EOS or how are you thinking about this

well at a high level certainly you know

I'm I'm one of the co-chairs of the

transition team there are a few others

of us who are working on it you to sort

of think about I mean look the way the

founders set up our government whether

you like it or not there are certain

things especially when it comes to

budget and Appropriations you just have

to go through Congress right you

fundamentally have to now I I do think

that the Congress is willing to work

with us at least you know the first

couple of years of an Administration you

can largely get the budgetary and

Appropriations things that you need but

there's a lot that you can do through EO

and by the way in a lot of ways I think

the enlargement of the president at the

expense of Congress is a bad thing but

fundamentally there is a lot that

happens in our government purely through

executive orders through EOS and yes

we're thinking very deliberatively about

all the things that you could do through

EOS on day one or in the early parts of

the administration and again not to make

this too partisan but one of the ways

that that um that Biden and Harris

opened up the American southern border

was through executive orders right it

was an executive order that suspended

deportations an executive order that

ended the remain of Mexico policy so you

can screw up a lot through EOS you can

also fix a lot through EOS which is

certainly Something That We're focused

on let me um uh go in a different

direction just in the last couple of

days um Dick Cheney endorsed KLA Harris

for president and that endorsement was

warmly embraced by by KLA Harris and the

Democrats the same people called him a

war criminal like three years ago yeah

well yeah I'm old enough to remember

back in 2008 uh Obama first beat Hillary

Clinton in the Democratic primary

because he had opposed the Iraq War and

she had supported it and then he got

elected president the United States and

the whole country seemed to recognize

that the Iraq War had been a disaster it

destabilized Middle East it you know I

don't need to go through all the

litanies of of horribles that that

happened from it but there seems to be a

widespread recognition and like you're

saying Di was kind of demonized as this

um like the Darth Vader Prince of

Darkness type figure which I think

basically was right I mean he was the

principal architect of of the Iraq War

and now I find myself agreeing with

everything the Democrats said in 2008

about right total coincidence on a

separate track a few weeks ago we had

Bobby Kennedy endorse uh Donald Trump so

you now have a dynamic where the bush

Republicans are now Harris Democrats and

the Kennedy Democrats are now Trump

Republicans clearly something big is

happening in our politics here can you

explain this realignment how do you see

it yeah I mean look uh one way think

about it is that we traded Dick Cheney

for Bobby Kennedy and that's an upgrade

I'll take every single

day

right look I mean one way of

understanding is you have to ask

yourself who is benefited and who is

harmed from the last 30 years of the

bipartisan consistence in this country

right so um you want to talk about a

manufacturing policy that I think

promoted the offshoring of millions of

good American manufacturing jobs and in

the in the process by the way made made

us less self-reliant as a country uh

that really benefited people like Dick

Cheney and kamla Harris and their donors

it didn't benefit the people that I

serve in the state of Ohio okay uh if

you ask yourself who actually went off

and fought these ridiculous Wars it was

very often working in Middle Class kids

in communities like mine it wasn't the

family of our current leadership class

by and large though of course they're

exception

and you go through each of these issues

and what you find is increasingly

Republicans are the party of working in

Middle Class people you know Bobby

Kennedy has talked about this a lot and

I think he puts it better than I ever

could but that you know you go back even

30 years ago and Approximately 80% of

the counties that represent sorry 80% of

the wealth in American counties went in

places that voted Republican and about

20% of the wealth went to places that

voted Democrat now it's 70% of the

wealth goes for Democrat and about 30%

of the wealth goes for republicans and

you saw this in a big way I mean just

one illustration is I believe that in

2012 Wall Street which I think Wall

Street fundamentally has been the main

beneficiary of globalization of of a lot

of the policies that I I pushed back

against and criticize over the last 30

years Wall Street went 3 to one for

Romney over Obama in 2012 I believe they

went 4 to one for um for Clinton over

Trump in 2016 and then like nine to one

for Biden over Trump in 201 20 so there

was a massive shift in who makes up

these parties wealthy people direct

their money to Democrats is what incre

increasingly wealthy people direct their

money to Democrats working in Middle

Class People direct their money to

Republicans why do you think that is j i

i i again because I think their policies

have benefited look the the the unip

party the kamla harrises and Dick Cheney

their parties have benefited a certain

group of people those people are

increasingly Democrats uh Donald Trump

has been pushing back against that

consensus in his party in his policies I

think benefit the majority of the

country so increasingly I think the

working middle class heart of the

country is going for Republicans like

another another spin on this cuz I know

we're you know focused on Tech in this

conference is Big Tech has become

increasingly pro-democrat little Tech

has become increasingly Pro Republican

right so if you're an upstart if you're

in crypto if you're if you're like a

small AI company I think you're much

more likely to be pro- Republican if

you're a monopolist in big Tech I mean

look at Facebook Google how they're how

they're how they're putting their

resources it's much much more Pro

Democrats so there are a lot of

different spins on it but fundamentally

I think the people who've benefited from

the American decline are becoming

Democrats the people who have suffered

from it and are pushing back against it

their Republicans I have a followup

question on that JD which is um you were

a venture capitalist uh for a period and

Lena Khan has essentially taken m&a off

the table um you well know that if we

can't get those singles and doubles in

the industry um it kind of freezes the

industry and we have a problem with

returns which then is having creating a

a secondary order problem where we can't

get LPS to put more money into funds

because we're not getting those returns

what's the proper way to look at m&a

because you're you want to break up big

Tech from what I understand and you have

a major problem with big Tech you

mentioned little Tech what's the proper

m&a architecture you know to to balance

those two uh goals there yeah so this is

obviously very complicated like Jason

you probably understand this better than

I do but as as Somebody by the way who's

defended Lena Khan against some of her

critics from the right I think what Lena

Khan fundamentally gets correct is that

big Tech really is a threat it's a

threat to free speech it's increasing

oligarchic it controls too much of what

we're allowed to say and also it

controls a lot of the ways in which

capital gets invested in these various

ecosystems but where I think Len lenon

goes wrong is that you're exactly right

like you need the singles and doubles

you need sometimes a medium-sized

company to buy a smaller company for 300

millon

right that liquidates Founders that

gives the Venture fund some money to go

back into the system and I think that

you know not I don't know her super well

but my basic read on Lena is that she is

so anti-monopoly as sort of a baseline

bias and anti that becomes anti-g and

acquisition as a baseline bias that

Google buying YouTube is a much much

different thing from a$2 billion market

cap Healthcare company buying a $500

million Market healthare company and I

think that we have to sort of draw a

very big distinction between little

little Tech and big Tech and look I'm

going to keep on making that argument

both in public and private to Lena and

hopefully she comes around to rvw a

little bit because I do think some of

her ideas on big Tech are right I think

a good place for us to Pivot would be

the border and just talking about this

issue more from first principles when

President Trump came on the podcast we

talked about hey maybe really talented

people we should recruit them to our

country and give them green cards um but

very quickly um your group walked that

back a bit it's such a political hot

potato and it doesn't seem to me that it

needs to be but you spent a lot of time

in government now why can't politicians

just do what 80% of the country wants

which is allow very talented people into

the country close the border and make it

like a a more point-based system like

Canada Australia and everybody else like

why is this so weaponized by both of

your parties well I think the reason why

it's so difficult right now and I mean

look generally I agree that okay we're

going to let some immigrants in we want

them to be high Talent high quality

people you don't want to let a large

number of illegal aliens in obviously

that you know that that is that's

president Trump's view but I I think

that the reason why it's so broken down

right now is because you have 25 million

illegal aliens in this country and you

like you can't fix what I would call the

minor or sort of less important

immigration question until you fix the

real problem and part of that goes back

by the way to the way in which the

system got broken in the first place so

Ronald Reagan of course great governor

of California

a great president but Reagan did in 1986

a massive amnesty program where in some

ways he was trying to do exactly what

you're talking about fix the problem of

people who are already here make sure

that our immigration system is more

proskill but also close down the border

and what happened is we got all the

amnesty but we didn't get the closing

down of the border and so in order to do

anything I think meaningful on

immigration policy meaning legal

immigration policy you've got to close

down the border and establish some basic

order and and we go back to First

principles here I I think that people

who are generally I mean look this is

I'm sure a very diverse crowd and I'm

sure there are a lot of immigrants In

This Crowd legal immigrants uh hopefully

um I'm married to the daughter I'm

married to the daughter of legal

immigrants to this country and I of

course love not just my wife but the

whole extended family I do think they've

they brought a lot areal immigrants yeah

um and but but but here's the thing when

you allow 25 million people into this

country it breaks down the entire social

compact right so think about this okay

you're down on your luck you lost your

job you get unemployment insurance

you're really down on your luck you need

food assistance from the federal

government I believe as a conservative

that part of being in the same American

Family whether your family's been here

for a generation or 10 Generations is

that we support people who are down on

the luck we don't want a cradle to grave

welfare state but we want to support

people we don't want kids who are dying

because of starvation because of no

fault of their own we want to promote

some basic fairness and we want to help

people out when times get tough but you

can't do that if you extend that

generosity to tens of millions of people

who can't even be here in in the first

place and I think that what what kamla

Harris has done at the border it's not

just bad economically it's not just bad

for Public Safety she has eroded the

very foundation of the social contract

in this country and we talk about

division in our politics and kamla has

this ridiculous slogan we're not going

back the reason why politics is so

divided is because she has turned

American citizens against one another

while she's placed theit the the

interest of illegal aliens above

American citizens you want to turn the

page and get back to Common American

citizenship stop putting illegal aliens

to the front of the line of American

citizens is the

motivation do you do you believe the

motivation is endless empathy or is it

as simple as we want new Democratic

voters or is there a kind of not

publicly spoken about economic argument

about bringing wages down having

economic growth having new buyers in the

economy that there's some benefit

despite the1 to 600 billion and I'll add

another one guilt yeah it's the endless

empathy aspect yeah yeah I mean empathy

is different than guilt it's all of

these things right I mean so so let me

tell you a brief story and this goes

back to my my changing my mind on Donald

Trump I was probably it's probably 2017

2018 I was at a business conference and

I happened to be seated next to one of

the largest Hotel chain CEOs in America

and my wife was there and we talk about

this as the Monopoly story because the

guy is just going off maybe it had too

much to drink he's going off about how

Donald Trump's immigration policies have

for had forced him to raise the wages of

his workers and I was like oh that's an

interesting fact like explain more about

this sir please I W understand and he

said well because we can hire a lot of

immigrants and frankly we can hire a lot

of legal immigrants under the table and

we can't do that because there are fewer

legal immigrants so we have to pay our

American citizen workers more money and

I'm like oh that sounds pretty good

actually isn't that like what we want is

for people to be earning higher wages

for doing a good job so there's

definitely an economic piece of it but I

also think I mean look this is this is

chilled out a little bit partially

because we're in election year if KLA

Harris won I think it would come back

with a vengeance but think about all

these like ridiculous land

acknowledgements right where people say

well you know I want to acknowledge that

this be belonged to like this tribe

before I was here and if you genuinely

think that you have to acknowledge a

Native American tribe from 300 years ago

then one attitude that comes along with

this is why can I control it all who

comes into the country right I have no

right there's this basic I think this is

the empathy it's the guilt it's sort of

all these things but all structural

Norms degrade exactly I I have no right

to say who comes into my community and I

think again it's it's deranged but I

think that's part of it I think the

economic piece of it is part of it it's

certainly a vote argument I mean

Democrats will say this of course

Republicans are accused of racism for

just repeating what Democrats have said

when somebody like Chuck Schumer says

well you know we're going to have an

emerging Democratic majority because

we're going to have all these new

immigrants and all the old Americans

well they're going to vote for

Republicans but we're going to replace

them with a bunch of new people who vote

for Democrats it's like that's pretty

sick but again if you call it out you're

somehow a racist even though Chuck

Schumer is himself calling it out as if

it were a good thing so I just want to

ask on a different topic now thank you

for talking about the Border um can I

just have one final on this topic okay

goad is um your plan is to deport tens

of millions of these people tell us how

that will happen practically how are you

going to take million of people put them

in cuffs drag them out while people have

their cell phones out recording this or

is that just Trump being Trump well

Jason

it's I like it you like the balance in

the podcast yeah I do I do

though In fairness JD told me JD told me

ask the hard questions please I want to

address them head on you did say that

nothing's I think Jason should be on the

left and David should be on my right

appropriately where am I he's been

pulling me to the right I'll it's funny

he didn't have any of these hard

questions for Reed Hoffman I don't know

why

SX Jason wait do you want me to leave

the left and go to the

right I'm on the left right now but I

could go right okay yeah I guess it

depends on perspective my perspective

here

but you know Jason if if the if the VC

thing doesn't work out you'd make a

great panelist at CNN so back but I um

no I by the way I love this and I like I

I genuinely think like this is what a

person who wants to be your Vice

President should actually do is answer

some tough question I do give you credit

for that that you will face the hard

question so back to the question tell me

about dragging millions of people out of

the country Jason here here's why I find

this question a little off and I will

answer it but

it's like somebody who comes to me and

I'm like eating my lunch and they say

look that sandwich is 10 times the size

of your mouth how are you possibly going

to eat that whole sandwich and it's like

well I'm going to take a first bite and

then I'm going to take a second bite and

I'm going to take a third bite and

eventually the problem's going to be

look you start out with the million

people who are what we call criminal

migrants people who have committed

violent crimes in some form or another

get them out of our country yes handcuff

those people and force them out of the

country but you also do other things

simultaneously first of all you stop the

bleeding right you undo KLA Harris's

policies that open the southern Border

in the first place I've got a piece of

legislation in the United States Senate

uh that we've got a lot of colleagues

who have signed up for it which would

tax remittances right because we know a

lot of people are earning money and then

sending it back to Central America where

wherever they came from if you end that

practice then you have a lot of people

who go backck willingly I think you

ought to make it harder for people to

hire illegal labor as opposed to

American citizens you tick through these

things and I do think that you know

that's the sandwich approach to this is

you try to take it one step at a time

but the most important thing and I think

the deportation Focus again it is

important because we're eventually we

are going to deport people but the most

important thing is to stop the bleeding

you've got to stop the millions of

people flowing across the southern

border every single year it happened

because of KLA Harris's policies it's

going to stop when Donald Trump is

President let me ask a national security

question

yeah there's a lot of videos elon's gone

down there Bobby Kennedy has gone down

there you've gone down there sure and

the interdictions are not necessarily

coming from countries in Central and

South America anymore they're coming

from places in you know near around near

Asia and a lot of places that you

wouldn't normally think people coming

from Middle East Etc from a national

security perspective what do we think is

happening yeah why is that happening

yeah so well part of the reason it's

happening is it's not Hondurans

necessarily

it's it's Iranians it's it's people from

you know all over Asia Africa

look if if you look at

this that is the open door right so if

you want to come to this country that is

the open door and God knows why some of

them want to be here I mean you know

given what's going on in the Middle East

I do worry about military age males from

Iran coming into this country through

the American southern border um but you

know I actually asked a border patrol

agent about this uh on one of my visits

and you know great guy was actually kind

of heartbroken because he signed up to

protect his country and he's a

relatively recent immigrant I could tell

that that by his accent this guy's like

very nervous and very heartbroken about

the fact that he can't do his job and he

told me this story and I you know I feel

like an idiot in hindsight because he's

like we we have a guy who came in here I

asked the guy like you why do you think

this guy's Iranian and he said well

because he came through and he said that

he was Mexican and I was like well

couldn't he have been Mexican he said

well he didn't speak Spanish like oh

that's a tell you knowy Mexico legal

alien doesn't speak Spanish that's

that's probably a pretty significant

tell but it it's it's happening because

this is what KLA Harris has done she's

created this massive Gap in our national

security and people are taking advantage

of it it's really not that surprising J

let me just ask you um one more foreign

policy question um on China so there's a

balancing act with China but the

rhetoric is that's our enemy there's

going to be a cold war the CH the the

the the structural relationship that the

United States has with China is a very

kind of codependent relationship they

buy our bonds I guess they're selling

them off now uh we we buy a lot of

product from them it allows us to go

into a Walmart and get you know $40

scooters for our kids or $20 scooters

for our kids the technology industry is

deeply dependent on a supply chain

coming from China there's a great

commercial interdependency with China

they have historically been a very

important partner to the United States

in our economic prosperity and I know

the argument about hollowing out the

middle class and so on because of moving

everything offshore to China but you how

do we rip that Band-Aid off and not

cause massive problems with INF

how do we not um you know Drive the cost

of everything up by taring things that

are coming in from China what's the the

way forward with China is it necessarily

A deeply kind of divisive cold war or is

there a path here that allows us to

maintain a balanced trading relationship

and and kind of a peaceful transition

with with China as they continue to to

build up their kind of capabilities

economically and um with energy which I

think is one of the biggest drivers for

their success well so so there's a lot

there and let me try to sort of take a

few pieces of it cuz I know we're

relatively short on time so so number

one is the energy piece of it's is very

important part of the way that you

reshore American manufacturing is that

you open up American Energy it matters

for crypto it matters for AI you've got

to open up American energy or you're

never going to have whether it's the

next generation of manufactured goods or

the past Generations you've got to open

up American Energy okay that's number

one number two is look I I don't want to

go to war with China I think it would be

hugely destructive but I do think that

we have to reshore more American

manufacturing and you one of the weird

things about China if you think about

past eras of developing nations right so

go back to like when the UK was the most

advanced economy in the world and

America was a developing Nation well one

of the things that happened is that like

Capital was flowing from the UK into the

United States right from the developed

into the developing Nation what's really

weird about China is that it's like

Americans borrow money from Chinese

peasants to then buy the things the

Chinese peasants are making for us right

so it's not just the the goods flow

that's jacked up it's the capital flows

that are jacked up and I really think

that the next you know Donald Trump is

going to be the next president of United

States and this is something we're going

to have to figure out is that you need

to balance both the capital and the

goods flows okay I'm not saying we're

going to have absolutely no trade with

China but right now the relationship is

fundamentally that the Chinese have

figured out they can create a massively

powerful producer Society while America

becomes a weaker weaker consumerist

society that is the broken nature of the

relationship and I think rebalancing is

the right way to think about it but we

have got to do it and I think we're way

way behind the you maybe final question

but you said something which I thought

was incredibly well said so I just want

to repeat it when us growth is 1 and 2%

everybody's fighting exactly but when us

growth is 4 to 5% everybody prospers

yeah can you walk us through just how

you think about how we get that extra

two or 300 basis points of growth and

where you need to have less regulation

so that you can have more

entrepreneurship or more regulation to

kind of constrain folks how do you think

for that energy sector yeah I mean I I I

really do think that we have to

recognize that we have massively

overregulation Transportation

over-regulated energy over-regulated

home construction uh I don't know that

it's I don't know how easy it is to get

another 300 bips of growth but I think

you can get a lot more growth whether

it's 300 or 150 just by massively

reducing the amount of regulatory burden

in the real economy and again I I'm an

optimist I'm fundamentally an optimist

on both you know crypto blockchain web 3

stuff but also on AI and you know the

way out of this may very well be to

radically open up the way the

technological innovation drives things

in the United States and and just on

this point about China uh I don't know

how much time we're we have I'll try to

be quick about this one of the things

that Bob lik you need okay more about

you all right well I'm a politician so

uh Buckle in we're going to be here for

three hours L but

um one of the real conceits of the 30

years of globalization that I think was

really really deranged and hindsight

very wrong Bob leiser who is Trump's

trade representative talks a lot about

this is we had this conceit that we

could separate the manufacturer of

things from the design of things right

so if you get an iPhone right now and

you get it out of the box you will see

that it says designed in Cupertino

California of course the implication is

that it's manufactured in chinen or

wherever they're manufacturing iPhones

these days that that the idea that the

iPhone designed in Cupertino is

increasingly no longer even true right

it's something that we lie to ourselves

about because the people who are doing

all the manufacturing of the hardware of

the iPhone are getting much better at

design and Innovation and part of the

reason why I care so much about this

manufacturing thing is whether it's

antibiotics for example why why haven't

why hasn't America invented an

antibiotic in 30 years it probably has

something to do with the manufacturer of

antibiotics has done almost entirely in

very lowcost manufacturing areas you can

go through a whole host of goods like

this but if you want to build a high

tech High Dynamic growth economy you

have to have some native manufacturing

and some self-reliance and so these two

things are very related and I think it's

a big part of getting back to four or 5%

growth is accepting that yes we're going

to have trade but we can't let everybody

make all of our stuff SX yeah let me a

question for you yeah

well I want to I want to wrap this up

because I think we're we're basically at

Time by um by just observing that both

Donald Trump and JD Vance have been on

this podcast and it's not because I'm a

crazy right-winger it's because we

invited them just because not just

because

um it's it's because we invited them and

they accepted we have similarly invited

KLA Harris and Tim Waltz to and before

that but he

forgot so we're We're still wai he said

yes forgot

he lost the he lost the zoom

link so we we want to re to be on this

call yeah we want to re extend the

invitation yes to KLA Harris and Tim

Waltz you're welcome to come on the

podcast at any time and the format will

be similar yeah and I just want to say

JD I think your answers were fantastic

here today and I I really do appreciate

you coming on and answering these

questions very thoughtfully and you know

from my perspective when I heard that

you were announced as the VP I thought

well this is great a young person um

who's got a lot of experience in venture

capital and Building Things in the world

and somebody who comes from humble

beginnings like the four of us um and

believes that a meritocracy where people

work hard and get reward for it so you

check all my boxes in that way and I

really think I feel much better you know

have my issues with your boss but um

when you talk about you know the

bite-size you know steps to it you know

I think one frame work to look at your

relationship with Trump is he says

things you know at the top of the the

highest vibration we're going to deport

20 million people and then you have a

very practical approach 60% tffs makes

no sense but hey we've got to rebalance

this and so I really do like your

measured approach to this and I think

that you're a great counterbalance and I

think we understand why he picked it I I

want to say one thing

um

thanks and this is not really related to

anything except that you are not

supposed to be here that's exactly right

yeah and that is really inspiring to

other people who were not supposed to be

here thank you well yeah I appr and if

you haven't read JD's book I read your

book long before all of this and I just

want to say your book was so inspiring

and I I have recommended it long before

today to you know literally hundreds of

people it's a fantastic read if you

haven't read it well and by the way

available wherever books are

sold you're like Jak out exactly do you

have an affiliate 529 account for the

kids let I just just just two things

first of all Jason I I appreciate what

you said but I also just want to defend

uh my my running mate here because I

think that again the media doesn't often

tell you the truth about Donald Trump

Donald Trump cares more about the

details of public policy than almost

anyone I've ever met in public life

that's actually real he thinks about how

this stuff affects the real economy and

Real Americans so if you're on the fence

whether you like what I said or dislike

what I said I just encourage you listen

to what he actually says because I think

that you'll become a believer that he

can make the country great again as he

promises uh but but but separate from

that I just want to say this is such an

important conversation and you guys hold

and host important conversations every

single day we should do more of it as a

country but I'm glad to participate

today God bless everyone thank you

ladies and gentlemen JD

[Music]

Vince that's great

[Applause]