Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day,

>> man. Good to see you. [music]

>> It's good to be here.

>> I like your shirt.

>> I appreciate it.

>> Professor Finesser. Is that your

Professor Finesser line?

>> This is one of my designs of my uh

Professor Finesser line. Got the cross

guard there.

>> I like it.

>> Little dope.

>> We got a couple different symbols.

Something that I'm building up. I want

to get out to the people.

>> It's a cool nickname.

>> It's uh it's unique for sure. It's It

came about a funny way, but I like it.

It's the mantra that it brings to the

fight game and to who I am is is

perfect.

>> Well, it's finesse and you fight with a

lot of finesse, you know. Um so, we

should start from your UFC debut because

uh that was when you really burst onto

the scene. You fought this guy Malcolm

Wellmaker who's a killer, vicious

knockout puncher and had a ton of hype

behind him because of his performance.

Was it the Contender Series where you

had the big performance?

>> Uh it was all three of them.

>> Contender Series. He knocked that dude

out flat and then uh

>> I don't remember who it was second, but

then it was Chris Moutino was the third

one

>> that that he knocked out like that.

>> And um you put on a show, man, and

nobody had heard of you. And that's one

of the craziest things about this sport

is that there can be a guy like you

that's learning and growing on in the

shadows and then they get the call and

on I think it was two days notice.

>> Yeah.

>> So two days notice you fought above your

weight cuz you're bantamweight normally

and you fought a featherweight and dude

you just it wasn't just that you fought

a guy who was this vicious striker. It

was the calmness and the technique and

the smoothness of it all that was so

impressive. And I was like, "This guy's

different." Like you, the way you fight

is very intelligent. And I love that. I

love watching a guy who's just all

technique and and movement. And you're

you're the epitome of that.

>> Ah, I appreciate it. Um, that's

something I pride myself on. That's I

think

maybe it's because I've I've delved into

more of a boxing realm with perfecting

the striking and and really focusing on

um that that technical aspect, that

style. But yeah, it's to me to watch

guys go in there and just brawl it out

and say uh you know, let's see who can

take more punches before the other guy

drops is is just silly to me. It's it's

like you said, I like to fight with

finesse. I like to hit and not get hit

and champions don't take return fire.

So, um I hope to have a lot of longevity

with this game and uh yeah, that's why I

fight that way.

>> That is the formula for longevity. I was

having a conversation with Fedor, the

guy who was sitting next to us, who's uh

one of the best pool players in the

world, and he's getting we just got back

from ways to well, so shout out to

Brighgam and all the people at Ways to

Well for taking care of us. Um, but he

uh and I were talking about fighters and

about it's very similar to I think

everything whether it's pool or golf or

and there's the people that really focus

on technique and fundamentals and and

really objectively look at what they're

doing and refine it. And we were talking

about guys who just stand in front of

each other and blast each other. I'm

like, look, the crowd will cheer. They

will love to see you, but your career

will be shorter. And the end will be

bad.

>> The end will be bad and and then you'll

probably fight past the time where you

should and no one's going to stop you.

They're going to maybe you have one or

two close friends that'll tell you when

are you going to hang them up, but a lot

of coaches let guys fight way too long.

And I think the organization lets guys

fight way too long. There's a few guys

that in the past at least I' I've see

them on the lineup in a upcoming fight.

I'm like, "Oh god." And then I see who

he's fighting. I'm like, "Oh god."

>> Yeah. like I don't want to see this guy

take any more punishment. I don't, you

know, enough is enough. And those styles

of just face first just attacking. Boy,

the audience loves you. And that's a

trap,

>> right?

>> That is a real trap.

>> Yeah. I mean, 100%. And I think that's

it's almost a little frustrating that

the like general public gives that kind

of energy to that kind of a match. Sure,

I get it. It's exciting. You want to see

blood spill. like people just really

enjoy the chaos of all that and all the

movement and the energy that goes into

it. But yeah, you're you're foregoing

that whole technical aspect like the

perfection of controlling the dance from

the beginning to the end and everything

in between, you know, it's and it's

almost just like a like an educated

street brawl. You're getting in there

and just swinging and going crazy. And

to me, that's not what martial arts is.

I mean, it's it literally is the the

chase of perfection to it of, you know,

like the the hit and don't get hit. That

is the art of of boxing, but the art of

striking and martial arts. You know, you

want to be Yeah. near near perfect in

the way you engage in this is land the

damage and be able to cut those angles,

move your head, pull out the distance,

and not take any of that in return. And

uh yeah, a lot of guys get get cheered

on initially and so it's unfortunate

that um maybe it's not unfortunate, but

you just you just see it a lot that

yeah, those guys get hyped up off the

beginning and then all the other things

happen like you said.

>> Well, I mean look, they are exciting. I

love when guys fight like that cuz it's

just crazy to watch, but I have to set

aside the rational part of my brain that

says this is not smart. It's not a good

thing for them, right?

>> And this is there's no future in this.

Eventually, it's going to catch up to

you.

>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, if I watch

these guys, you know, get after it, like

Roman Puga versus uh his opponent on the

Dana White Contender Series this last

Tuesday, I believe it was.

>> Oh, that was crazy,

>> dude. I mean, I've trained with Roman a

little bit here and there. He's from the

same area as me. And uh yeah, the guys

the guy's very skillful, but at the end

of the day, both those guys walked out

of there just busted up. I mean, they

went straight to the hospital. and it's

fantastic to watch. But from a fighter

perspective, at least from someone who's

engaging in this on the same level as

they are, yeah, I uh I don't know,

that's why I like, you know, a little

bit more of that precise style with the

boxing specifically. I guess I've really

drawn a lot of aspects from it.

>> Oh, for sure. I mean, there's there's an

art to like a fighter that fights with

style and a a fighter that fights with

finesse. Like I always go to Izzy in his

prime, Adisana in his prime when when he

was just styling on dudes. I mean it was

a beautiful thing to watch. It was it

was it was like a dance. It was almost

like he was coordinating them, you know?

He was moving them into his strikes and

everything was like faints. They were

all like very specific to gauge

reactions and he'd put it all into the

computer and the next thing you know

he's tuning you up,

>> right? Yeah. I mean, uh, he's dancing

his way out.

>> Yeah.

>> Into the octagon and then he's dancing

in there, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's, um,

>> and I think the other thing that the

general public doesn't understand about

this game is that it's a smart man's

game.

>> Yes.

>> It's not a tough man's game.

>> Well, that's one of the reasons why I

wanted to talk to you because I've seen

a lot of your quotes online. I've seen

you talk. You're obviously a thoughtful

person and I think you have to be to

have that kind of a style because it

does take a lot of thinking. It takes a

lot of like what you're doing in there

by constantly overloading overloading

your opponent's nervous system with

movement and and and constant counters

and being like right out of range but

then right in range and then right out

of range there's a lot of intelligence

involved in that. And for someone like

me who really loves the art of it, I

love watching a guy like you fight

because I really wish young fighters

would emulate people like you. Young

fighters would see a guy like that like

that's what I want to fight like. I

don't want to be this guy who goes in

there and the end of my career, my face

is just a road map of scars and I got

CTE, but boy, people remember back in

the day when I knocked that guy out or

when we had this fight of the night and

>> Yeah. Yeah. And um it's taken a lot of

experience, a lot of growth, a lot of

seeing different things cuz when I was a

wrestler, it was the Iowa style of

wrestling that I emulated and that I

hope to emulate, which is it's just get

in your face. It's break you down, break

your spirit, break you physically, just

completely wipe you out with just

outstanding pressure, you know. And I

think I suffered with the finesse, with

a little bit of the technicality of of

setting things up and being smooth

because I was just clubbing on your

head, snapping people down, going going.

And I I've refined that. I've I've

pulled back from that almost almost too

much, I would say, to where if I'm if

I'm striking with someone, I don't even

want to engage in like a battle of

physicality. These guys try to push and

move and get up and I'm like, you know,

I'll sit and I'll dance and I'll roll up

and I'll I'll shut them down real quick

and I'm steering them off and I'm

throwing really quick and they try to

get physical where they're really trying

to make it, you know, a high pace and

and and

just more physical. I don't want to

engage with that at all. I want to steer

from beginning to the end. I want to

keep my heart rate as low as possible. I

want to land shots and then I want to be

back to sitting and and like you said,

covering a distance, controlling

everything where I can sit, I can take

my breath and I can see what's coming

next and then I can move accordingly.

And so, you know, after being out for a

little bit of time, I'm now even

elevated another um yeah, to to another

greater extent in my own mind that I'm

now starting to combine the two things

to where before I I wouldn't say I shied

away from it. You know, I'm I'm a tough

guy. if if we want to get physical and

if it needs to go to that, I'm there all

day, you know, don't get me wrong with

that. But, um, I'm I'm finding that

middle ground where I was I was too much

of that Iowa style without the finesse.

Now, I was trying to be all skillful,

all finesse, dance around the Muhammad

Ali shuffle, throw that flicker jab, be

out of range, you know, and and not want

to engage in the physicality too much.

And now I've elevated once again to

where I'm finding that perfect middle

ground that you know my I'm letting my

ego go in the gym to where if we do get

into that physicality or someone gets me

with something, if it doesn't look

perfect, I'm not sitting there thinking,

"Oh, I need to look perfect and and

avoid these things." Now I'm just

sending it and getting after it. So

yeah, it's it's an ever evolving game

and uh I'm just getting better all the

time with everything. So you'll never

see me go in there and brawl anybody,

but you'll see less hesitation. you'll

see uh more precise shots and then all

the other finesse will always be there.

>> Well, it is a constant work in progress,

right? And I think that's one of the

more interesting things about MMA is

that you see a fighter when they first

start fighting in the UFC and then you

see as fights go on, they get more

fights, they get more confidence, they

get more experience, and they also get

significantly better. You know, it's

it's kind of rare that you see athletes

in a sport, generally speaking, when

they get to a certain professional

level, they're kind of already at their

peak and they might get a little better,

but in MMA in particular, you see

dramatic improvement in fighters over

the course of four or five years,

especially if they have good management

and good training.

>> And one of the things that you're

talking about is like letting your ego

go in the gym. That that is so

important. It's so important to

recognize that training is for learning.

It's not you're not trying to win every

training session. You're not trying to

win fights. You're trying to get better

at winning actual fights. And sometimes

getting better at winning actual fights

is addressing whatever weird weaknesses

or weird places where you're not as

comfortable and getting comfortable

there. And the best way to do that is to

just force yourself into those

situations.

>> Yeah, 100%.

>> It's hard to do though because guys want

to be dominant. They want to, you know,

you don't want to lose a training

session. You don't want to give, you

know, this guy that you're sparring with

the impression that he can kick your

ass,

>> right? So, you want to get it back on

them, but sometimes it's smart to not.

>> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm I'm over there

uh the Rola Brothers are training over

there at CSW with Eric Pollston right

now, and Yeah, it's like

>> those guys are phenomenal.

>> Yeah, they're the best in the world at

what they do.

>> They're so fun to watch. Those guys

could put jiu-jitsu on the map.

>> Oh, yeah. Cuz the Routollo brothers,

like when they do jiu-jitsu, it is like

this chaotic, exciting, like very

kinetic, very technical

path to your neck,

>> right?

>> You know, that's what it is. It's just

this constant path to your neck,

>> dude. And they got these monkey arms

that it can just wrap around your neck

and get that dar choke from anywhere,

man. It's ridiculous.

>> Long arms are awesome.

>> Long arms are insane.

>> Such an advantage. Like Hodra Gracie had

that. A lot of guys have that. A lot of

like the best Dar guys. Hamzad has that,

>> right?

>> Those long armed guys. [ __ ] man.

>> Yeah. And then like you said, like their

their ability to

>> they they almost like enforce the chaos

because that's where they they thrive

at, you know, all that scramble

situation.

>> They're they're running doing crazy

jumps, like crazy sweep setups. Uh was

it Kate or Tai? I think I say it was Tai

when he ran and he bounced off the cage

or the ropes and he runs back in and

double legs like the dude. Like it's

like a WWE match, you know? They're like

thriving off of that chaotic energy.

Scrambles. Yeah, they they they're so

good in scrambles, you know, and it's

really interesting watching it. Is it

Tai that's doing one FC that is doing

MMA fights now?

>> They're both fighting.

>> They're both fighting now.

>> And that's it's going to be exciting to

have those guys enter into the UFC

someday. Hopefully they will. Yeah,

>> cuz uh

>> Oh, for sure. That they're they're just

freak athletes, you know? It's something

that they've been around since they were

super super young. And uh yeah, I mean

even even their striking, you know, it's

not super technical quite yet. They're

very brand new in it, but they're just

they got long reach. They're very

methodical. They're athletic. They

understand distances from the jiu-jitsu

world of setting up takedowns and, you

know, closing closing that distance. So,

um, but yeah, what I was saying is like

going with that kind of a guy, it's like

the last thing I want to do is engage in

like a grappling position with them in

the jiu-jitsu or in the MMA. And uh, but

it's like, yeah, the more I do that, I'm

only going to get better at doing that

kind of stuff, you know,

>> kill the ego, engage full headon into

what you're bad at. That's the only way

to get good at anything.

>> Another great thing about those guys is

they're totally natural. And in the

jiu-jitsu world, that's rare,

>> right?

>> That's really rare. Jiu-jitsu is a dirty

sport, man.

>> Yeah.

>> Or, you know, I mean, is it dirty if

everyone's doing it? No. Let me say it

this way. It's an enhanced sport,

>> right?

>> For the most part, the elite guys are on

some Brazilian supplements.

>> Yeah. It's It's legal, but they're all

doing it. Yeah. They're all juiced up.

So,

>> I mean, it's kind of legal. Like Abu

Dhabi doesn't test. A lot of places

don't test, right? So it's like and you

see these guys and there's no way some

of them and you know kudos to guys like

Gordon like Gordon Ryan who talks very

openly about it. He's like everybody's

on performance-enhancing drugs. Why

would I be on performance-enhancing

drugs? My goal is to be the absolute

best that I could be period.

>> Right? You know, and the idea that the

only reason why he's so good is because

of steroids is also equally ridiculous

because when he was younger and when he

was much smaller, he was winning

tournaments left and right and beating

world champions,

>> right?

>> And he was totally natural.

>> Yeah. I mean, there's there's no way you

can say someone like Gordon Ryan isn't

the highest prowess of skill set for

jiu-jitsu, you know, like his technical

technicality and his abilities there are

unquestionable. Yeah. Yeah. What I mean,

what are you going to do if everybody

else is is on that level? You're now at

a deficit if you're not taking it. So,

um

>> there's a few guys that don't. Um

>> and and maybe I don't know. Obviously,

there's maybe some strength skill or

strength deficit there, but

that's that's why again going back to my

style and and what I like to do, like

the technicality and having that

ability, there's there's there's just so

many aspects to everything. But if

you're that much more technical than

someone, then that can negate size to

some extent. That can negate

>> um strength to some extent. Like there's

there's there's a lot of equalizers

there. Now,

>> you know, on the on the opposite end,

someone who's got that one hit or

quitter, they could be less technical,

but they're always dangerous. If they

hit you one time and you go to sleep,

then all sins are forgiven. They could

have got beat up for two rounds straight

and they knock you out. That's all the

the crowd remembers. So, uh, there's a

there's a lot that goes into it. But if

you're that much more, you know,

skilled in your technicality, that's

that's you're going to to me that's the

best you can do. That's that's what

you're chasing.

>> For sure. The really dangerous guys are

the guys who have that one hit or

quitter power and then they get real

technical.

>> Yeah.

>> Those are the scary guys.

>> Oh, for sure. I mean,

>> yeah,

>> that's then now you have it all. You

know, that's that

>> often not the case though. That's what's

interesting is power can be a curse as

can talent. Talent can be a a curse too

because you don't work as hard because

you [ __ ] everybody up in the gym and so

you don't show up for practice

sometimes. You still [ __ ] these guys up.

They're just not on your level

physically or for whatever reason.

>> Yeah.

>> And then there's guys that have that

power that always just rely on that

power and never really develop the

fundamentals. And so like Deontay Wilder

is a great example of that. Deontay

Wilder, who I think is the greatest one

punch knockout artist in the history of

the heavyweight division. That [ __ ]

guy.

>> Whoa. And not a big guy.

>> Yeah.

>> But his power is nuts. And Teddy Atlas

has the greatest uh definition of it,

description of it. He said it's the

great eraser. Any mistakes he makes, one

shot erases them all.

>> Yeah,

>> it's so true.

>> Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's uh I agree. I mean,

>> but could you imagine if Deontay could

move like Tyson Fury,

>> right?

>> If Deontay could box like Tyson Fury

with also with that crazy insane power.

>> Yeah, it's it's game over for anybody.

>> It's game over for everybody in front of

that guy. Not a single person, you know.

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States audience. Yeah, if he could move

like us, I mean, it's a tall [ __ ]

order because no one can move like Usyk

other than Usyk, but imagine if he could

move like Usyk,

>> right?

>> You know, I mean, N has that crazy stop.

Bang. One shot, you're in another

[ __ ] dimension.

>> Yeah. And that's, you know, there's and

then

um that's that's obviously like at a

personal level like it some people are

blessed with that talent like you said

or a skill set or athleticism.

>> Well, the power thing is just it seems

like it's a gift.

>> Yeah. No, it is. I mean I mean I think

it was for us I was talking about Connor

and he was talking about how the the

muscles connect to the muscle head

differently. It's like a long or short

once and then you either have like that

real explosive power but then your your

cardio suffers. Whatever it is, he's

going into it. It's a gift. I mean, can

you develop it to some extent? Yeah, of

course. Now,

the other thing with with punching, with

with striking is it's not always like

power that knocks people out. It's the

shot that you don't see coming that

knocks you out.

>> Sure.

>> You know, and so

>> it you know, then you can kind of

equalize on on that playing field, I

suppose, to some extent. If you're

getting people guessing, you're getting

people fainting, you're hitting them

with shots that they're not seeing, then

you're going to get similar, you know,

knockout finishes like that.

>> There's a lot of guys that knock a lot

of people out that don't have one punch

power for sure. Max Holloway is a great

example of that. Like Max has never,

even though he has knocked guys out with

one shot, it's generally like after a

bunch of damage,

>> right?

>> But I mean, Max talked about it pretty

openly about guys like Connor, Jose

Aldo, and he's like they just get tired

quicker because of the speed and power.

They're so explosive and it's so much

energy to try to close the distance that

quick and land those big nuclear bomb

shots, but you only have a few of those

in a whole fight.

>> Yeah, I I feel like uh Max's

um perspective on those two guys may be

construed just because of I mean he

fought Connor the first time I guess

when Connor was in his prime, you know,

and he was coming up.

>> It was almost before his prime.

>> It was it was on that rise.

>> They were both kids. I think Max was 20

at the time. Yeah, he was I think he was

like the youngest UFC USC fighter at

that time or something close to.

>> He was a different human back then

>> for sure. But I just think so like cuz

Conor's cardio is something that I have

noticed.

It wasn't it wasn't super poor like

initially when he was fighting at 145. I

mean to me he never like Chad Mendes

they had a lot of grappling exchanges.

Chad took him down. Chad hit him with

shots. you know, Connor just stayed

nice, calm, cool, and collected and uh

he he got back to the striking where he

could do that, but to me, he never was

like gassed out. But then you watch the

second Diaz fight and he's running

around the cage for five rounds. Now

he's gone up in a weight class. So then

it goes back to, you know, what's his

what's his training regimen look like?

He's he's not cutting as much weight, so

he doesn't have to be as much as

disciplined. His diet changes.

>> There's a lot of aspects. So, like I

don't know. Con that the Connor one was

was weird to me just because I saw I saw

a change in it when he was at 145. He he

didn't have poor cardio. As soon as he

left that weight class, his cardio

waned. And then Jose Aldo, I mean, that

guy was undefeated for what, 10 years, a

champion for 10 years, and you never saw

him get tired. And I never saw him get

tired. Yeah, Max fought him at a certain

point when he's a little bit older, this

and that. So, I don't know. Maybe that's

just Max's perspective on that. I'm not

saying Max is incorrect in what he's

saying, but um

I don't know. There's there's to me

there's just I haven't um pinpointed

exactly what's the right and wrong way

to do everything just because there's so

many variables especially in MMA. I

mean, we were kind of discussing a

little bit earlier is it's not just

solely that you have like good cardio

that allows you to

continue to perform in that fight.

There's another aspect of how calm,

cool, and collected you can be because,

you know, like we were talking hitting

the mids and something, if you're real

tense and you're just trying to kill

them, yeah, you're going to burn

yourself out. But if you're fast and

snappy, you're producing just as much,

if not more power, and now you're being

more efficient with it, you know? And

so, um, I don't know. The cardio one is

is a is a funky one in combat sports to

me.

>> It really is. But I think if you look at

Jose Aldo, Jose Aldo when he was on top,

when he was the king,

>> he was wrecking everybody and he was the

hammer most of the time and he was so

athletic and so fast and had some of the

best leg kicks we had ever seen. Like

the Uriah Faber fight, how [ __ ] tough

is Uriah Faber? Yeah,

>> cuz like that guy, many, many, many

humans would have been stopped a long

time ago just from those leg kicks. And

Uriah just kept trying to the very last

second of the even though he was way

behind the scorecards, never folded up

his tent, he was still trying. But Aldo

wasn't the nail. You know what I'm

saying? Like there was there was very

few moments in a fight where someone had

really started overwhelming him. And one

of the things that Max has always been

so good at is knowing when to hit the

gas and knowing when to just slowly ramp

up the pressure. And you see guys start

to fade. And Max is a cardio [ __ ]

machine. I mean, super disciplined guy,

right?

>> And great camp. Those guys in Hawaii

really prepare him well. He is always

like 100. It's like the fight with Gachi

fighting in the fifth round of a [ __ ]

crazy chaotic war just at the same exact

pace he was fighting in the first round,

>> right?

>> So, it's the experience of knowing what

your body can do, when you can hit the

gas, when you need to back off, when to

move, when not to, and when you feel

your opponent start to fade a little

bit. You see the mouth being open a

little bit more. You see the movement

looks a little sloppier,

>> right? Oh, 100%. That's Yeah. Knowing

when to rest is is a big aspect of that

as well because you go and you that's

why a lot of the training you do is is

that short burst. You know, you hit like

your sprints. Um you know, you might

maybe hit the straightaway on on the

track and then you jog and maintain cuz

in a fight you're never completely

resting. You're always moving a little

bit. Um so yeah, I mean that's that's a

huge thing. the experience. I think his

his style and and just what he's

created, like you said, in his camp is

is a high output, high volume

individual. So, you know, his body's

probably um

become used to that and that's that's

how he performs normally.

>> Yeah, I was shocked that Connor wanted

to fight him in his first fight back

after years off. I mean, five years is a

long time to not fight. And then to come

back and fight a guy like Max who's been

constantly fighting the best guys in the

world and knowing that Max is a guy who

never fades and he's in very diff gotten

him out of there is Ilia

>> and you know Ilia caught Max when Max

went down from 55 down to 45 which I

think was a a mistake. He was so big. He

got so big to get up to 55 to fight

Justin and he did it over a long period

of time. Put a lot of mass on and then

you essentially you're starving yourself

to get down to 45 again. Your body's

going to be weak no matter what you do.

It's not like he was when he was

fighting at 45. He maintained a lower

weight class, knew exactly when to cut

and would make it no problem each time.

That last cut to 45 was a nightmare. It

was a horror show. And so when he got in

there with Ilia and then you're fighting

El Matador, that [ __ ] you want

to talk about technique, right?

>> Technique and his strike, the smoothness

and efficiency and the one punch. Go

night power.

>> I mean, that guy has it above. Who the

[ __ ] did that to Charles Olivera the way

that guy did? Yeah.

>> I mean, that's nuts. He's got And up at

55 when Oliver is a big 55, too.

>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, him moving up to 55.

Those are some those are some big dogs

right there. big. Especially when you

look at him and Justin. When him and

Justin were like facing off each other,

I'm like, that's a way bigger dude.

>> Like Justin's bigger than me and Ilia is

smaller than me. When I stand next to

two of them, like this is crazy that

Ilia has the kind of power that he's

just wrecking guys even that are way

bigger than him,

>> right? Yeah. I mean, his his skill set

is is amazing combined with the power.

That's that's someone you talk about has

a skill set and the punching power, you

know, and encompasses both those things.

It's Yeah, he's he's got it all. I mean,

um and and the thing with him, too, is

he's just so he's so calm, cool, and

collected. I think that's also

something. I mean, I I do a lot of like

comparison from

from Muay Thai boxing to the MMA world

because, you know, I'm I'm in MMA, so I

understand that there's so many

different aspects to it where like

someone could take you down and that's

going to affect your your striking skill

set. You know, if you got someone who's

real dumb wrestler and you're and you're

way better striker, if you're sitting

there and worried about them taking you

down and smothering you, your striking

goes out the the window a little bit

because now you have a whole different

set of weapons that you're worrying

about. Um

>> and you can get caught easier.

>> Yeah. Especially if you're like just

loading up on them. Yeah. You're going

to get ducked under and double egged and

and then taken down. And that's that's

the whole thing. But um

I forgot where we even started this

train of thought. But uh yeah, I mean I

think it's his his collectness too, but

I was I was saying there's comparisons

to all these and that's what like boxing

you see these guys. They might have a

couple more rounds, but they come out

and like the first round, maybe uh the

second round is is a feeling out round.

you know, it's it's a slow

buildup where they're they're collecting

data, they're setting traps, they're

they're doing a lot of that. And you see

that in MMA, just not at the same level.

Obviously, there's a there's a greater

skill set. There's more weapons to worry

about. It is different. Um, but I don't

know. I obviously I'm reaching for peak

perfection with everything. So, if we're

coming and we're looking at distance

control, I think the boxers do it

better. you know, if we're looking at

setting up faints and and working off a

jab, especially, I think that's I think

that's the most frustrating thing when I

watch MMA or UFC fights and watch the

majority of the guys never never ever

use a jab and it's always just this big

overhand right. I'm like,

>> like what are you doing? Like you have

two hands like you have the jab, set it

up. Now, I'm not saying that's

everybody, but I see I see many people

doing that. But that going back to

Taporia, that's one thing that he does

so well is he's a shorter guy. He sits

back on that back foot. He's throwing

that jab. He's he's understanding your

distance control so he can get in and

then that's where he's got that power

and he lets that go.

>> It's going to be interesting to see how

he rebounds because that was a uh a lot

of damage. He two fractured orbitals,

you know, they had to stop the fight in

between rounds.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh he took big punches from a guy

who's got [ __ ] rocks in his hands.

>> Yeah. I mean, Justin can crack.

>> He Well, they call him what, the most

violent most violent in the in the game,

and I think that stands true. Uh, yeah,

that's that's a hard one to bounce back

from. It's going to take extra time of

him really letting all his injuries heal

and and be fully recovered before he

even thinks about sparring again, you

know, ever getting touched in the face

again.

>> Yeah, I don't know where he's at now,

you know. Um, but I know that he's still

recovering and it'll be a while. I mean,

the fight was in June. We're doing this

right now. It's August 30th. Was it 30th

or 31st?

>> 31st. Yeah.

>> 31st.

>> So, you know, he's had a couple of

months, but you know, that he probably

needs like six months before he's even

sparring again.

>> Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's

going to take some time. It's going to

take some time. I mean, the thing that I

really hate to see is when you guys you

have undefeated individuals like that

who have gone undefeated their whole

career, feel invincible, and then it

sometimes that one takes them off their

pedestal, you know, like Jos Aldo's a

great example of that of I mean, and he

came back and he fought tough, but he

just never was the same, right?

>> He was never that untouchable. Um,

you know, there's probably many people

that I can touch back on, but yeah, hope

I think hopefully that's that's the main

thing that he's going to need is that

that mental um indestructibility and to

come back and just be like, I'm the same

person. That one fight doesn't change

anything and I'm ready to go do it

again.

>> Well, he's a very mentally strong guy

and I think he will bounce back in that

regard. It's just there's also the just

the reality of how much damage and only

he knows how much damage he actually

took in that fight. Yeah.

>> You know how that affects him as well

because you know as well as anybody that

there's only a few of those kind of

fights that you could have in your

career and you got to be very careful

how you recover from those. And uh a lot

of fighters, a lot of great fighters

have made a mistake of coming back too

soon. Uh Vulcganowski is one that I

point to all the time who's arguably the

greatest featherweight of all time. He

is one of the most masterful fighters in

the game. He took a short short notice

fight with uh Islam uh in the rematch

and got head kicked and then I think it

was only four months later that he was

fighting Ilia. And that is crazy. That's

a crazy thing to do. He took a full head

kick, shinned the dome, gets KO'ed, and

then four months later he's fighting the

[ __ ] scariest challenger that he's

ever had to face,

>> right? Yeah. 100%. You you can't rush

back into those things. I mean,

especially when you're that cemented,

you don't really need to rush back into

it, right? You know, you you have your

legacy behind you.

>> Well, you shouldn't have even taken that

fight with Islam. There's no way you

should take a world championship fight

when you're hanging out with your

buddies, drinking beer, you know, eating

fish and chips or whatever the [ __ ] he

was doing. And then

>> hunting with Vul over there, you know,

>> he's having a good time, but he wasn't

in training. He said there's no way he

was in train. He didn't look like he was

in training physically. Like his body

didn't look the same. did not like he

looked out of shape, but he definitely

looked smoother and less ripped than he

usually does.

>> There's a there's a difference to being

in a two or three month fight camp of

day in day out, two, three practices a

day, the diet's set, the the mentality

is set versus I'm just training.

>> On the outside of that,

>> when you came in on two days notice to

fight Wellmaker, were you in training at

all? Like what was your scenario?

>> Uh I was doing uh food eating

championship training. was killing uh

double doubles and 3x3s. No, but with

that one, I was I was fortunate because

uh I I stayed strict pretty much year

round. So, I had fought fought in

January um at the beginning of the year

and then I was supposed to fight

multiple times and I just had I had two

or three opponents pull out and then I

fought November 7th for the title fight

for the A1 combat which was Lydia of the

weekend before. though. Fortunately, I

did I was even though people were

falling out, I I kept to the course. I

stayed strong. I stayed in a fight camp

mentality. That November 7th fight ended

up happening. So, I had a strong two

months. Now, still, even that one week

difference of going being in a fight

camp, and then I have a couple drinks at

the casino, I'm eating food. And I

thought to myself because January was it

was a similar thing where they said

February Australia

get ready, get your passport, let's look

into this, blah blah blah. You know, I

had a had a nice knockout finish there.

Um, but then yeah, just that one week of

being off of of eating whatever I wanted

to and just kind of doing whatever. I I

ran once. I showed up to sparring and

light touch sparred. Um, I had gone to

one other practice cuz in my mind I was

like, I need to be somewhat ready for

this. Like I can have I can have a week.

I've been in fight camp all year long. I

can have one week and then that's the

week that they call and say 48 hour

notice MSG 10 and0 undefeated Malcolm

Welmaker. You want it? And uh and then

of course I'm going to can't say no to

that one.

>> So you fought the weekend before the

Wmaker fight.

>> I fought November 7th. Yeah.

>> Wow. That's actually good.

>> If you didn't get hurt.

>> Yeah. Well, it was a minute and 30

seconds. I knocked him out in the first

round. So, it was it was to me it's just

the stars aligned. I mean,

>> don't you think it's also good that you

just had the experience like seven days

prior to the whole thing getting in the

cage, cage shuts, you just fought. So,

it's much more comfortable for you than

if you had like Connor taking five years

off. as elite as Connor is, double

champ, one of the greatest of all time

for that. Even a guy like that, you take

five years off and you could see like

what it did to him. It's like it [ __ ]

with his head.

>> Oh, yeah. You could you could see it. It

there wasn't the same Connor energy

going into it. Uh, of course, I I always

want a quick turnaround like after I

fight just for that very reason. I I I

cut the weight. I know what that's like.

I

warmed up in the back with all the

anticipation, you know, and that energy

flowing through my body. I walked out in

front of the crowd. They announced my

name. I got in there. I I actually

fought someone. So, yeah, if you have

that going for you, then that's Yeah,

it's way way better. For sure.

>> Yeah. The more active you can be, the

more comfortable you can be with the

experience as long as you're not getting

hurt. Yeah. Here's a stat that I was uh

reading about Izzy. Um and people forget

about this. when he was the champion, he

defended his title a lot, man. He was

the guy that they can go, "Hey, we need

someone to headline this card." And Izzy

would step in. And I think he fought

three time he defended the world title

three times in one year, which is crazy

cuz I don't think the middleweight title

since he's gone has even been contweight

fights have there even been for the

title since he's been gone. There's only

been a few fights. I think there's only

been

>> I mean there's Sean and and

>> and Drius Shawn and Drius two uh Drius

and Hamzot

>> and then Sean and Hamza

>> and Sean and Hamza I mean it might

literally be like maybe five fights

since he's lost the title and [ __ ] he

defended it more than anybody

>> right yeah which is crazy he defended it

three times in one year

>> and then you have

>> this you know huge span of time in

between defenses

>> but then there's a question of like What

is the when does it become a benefit and

when does it become a detriment? Like

when when you're fighting too many times

a year like the Morab Davish Willie

fight um one of the things that a lot of

people talked about after Per Yan beat

him in the rematch was what about the

strength of schedule? I mean Morab was

fighting constantly. He was fighting. He

fought so often and for so many years

that you got to think that at a certain

point in time maybe he's doing himself a

disservice by being so active.

>> Yeah. I mean, for sure. Um I don't know.

I mean, that's

it's something you got to feel out for

yourself, you know? It's it's something

that you have to know in your heart of

hearts. And

>> nobody else can tell you that. Your

coach can't be like, "No, you're

training really well these days. You're

super sharp. This and that." like if

something's off realistically,

you should be perfect going into your

fight, especially at a at a world

championship caliber. Um, it's just I

mean, I keep making these comparisons,

but it's another thing that I I go back

to with the boxing world is these guys

look at it as a business. Like, look at

Floyd Mayweather. Like, everything was

like he he made sure that the the cage

was his side. He picked the gloves. It

was certain people at certain times. And

there's there's some things to be said

about that, but it's a business mindset.

It's a very smart approach to it. You

know, I'm fighting when I'm ready. I'm

not fighting injured, which is which is

more of the main thing is like people go

in there with injuries and, you know,

get hurt or or lose even. It's like

that's that could be detrimental on your

record. I think the MMA guys are a

little bit more on the the tough side

instead of the the business side of

things where they'll they'll fight

anyone any time, which I mean, that's

how you got to be, but that's how you

build your team around you. you have a

team that tells you, hey, you know, this

time isn't isn't necessarily the best to

go into it and this and that and just

being a little bit smarter about your

schedule. It's like, yeah, us fighters

are going to sit there and go, I'll

fight anyone any given time. Um, doesn't

matter, but yeah, this is this is a

business. It's not just um fighting like

getting in that cage solely. It's it's a

lot of aspects that go into it. Don't

you think it's way more difficult to go

into a fight perfect in MMA than it is

in boxing, though? In boxing, it seems

like it's much easier to avoid injuries.

>> For sure. There's there's there's

differences. I just I reflect back to

that. I like the way that they conduct

themselves. I think it's it's and and

there's a lot that's to be said to that

cuz it's it's a longer standing sport.

>> There's been more time and experience

into it.

>> But yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, I I

was before this April fight, I the first

round of the day of sparring, I was just

going light with Callum Bisping for

literally one second and we moved around

and he's a heavyweight. We moved around.

He took me took he tried to take me

down. I stuffed. He took me down and I

kind of just sat with it because I

didn't want to get caught in any, you

know, knee tweaking positions or

anything cuz he's just so much heavier

than I am. And I sat into a butterfly,

which is typically how I would do that.

elevate the hips immediately and try to

make a scramble and my my meniscus just

popped instantly right then and there.

First round of the day, barely barely

had done anything. Barely started and it

wasn't even like a a crazy position, but

yeah, now I sustained injury. Now I

don't go against heavyweights anymore

because

>> you should never be doing that as a

bantamweight. You should not be sparring

with heavy.

>> Well, that's why I go the first day I'm

or not the first day but the first round

and I'm just trying to warm up. There's

there's a lot of things to be said. I I

grow and I and I learn and I get smarter

every time.

>> I think you should only spar with guys

that are reasonably close to your

weight, period.

>> 10 10 pounds is probably a maximum above

you. You know, you shouldn't be going

with anybody more than that.

>> Yeah, I get I get smarter with these

things. I I do dumb things and uh

>> I figure

for the for the most of my history, I've

had to learn the hard way with things.

So, uh I'm getting better at it. I'm

getting smarter. So, but like I said, it

was just a freak thing. It wasn't like

we were going crazy hard or anything

like it just was the first round I just

trying to move and and then some little

thing happened.

>> Uh it wasn't a full full tear but it

happened back in like Februaryish right

before that that April one. So leading

up to the Estabon fight it's like I

didn't grapple till the last maybe maybe

month of it maybe.

>> Oh so it was bothering you even before

that fight.

>> It was all the way up to it. I mean like

that's that's when it happened was the

April fight which was the Eston fight.

>> Wow. Wow. So yeah, it's it's very

difficult to avoid everything, you know,

like there's a lot of different things

that won't even seem like a detrimental

position, but yeah, you got grappling,

which can tweak all sorts of different

parts of the body. Uh a simple cut from

from striking can happen very easily. So

for sure, it's it's much more abundant

in the MMA world because there are more

weapons. There's a lot of variations of

things to watch out for. Um, but that

being said, I like to carry, like I

said, this is a smart man's game. I like

to carry a a level of of business-wise

and and smartwise to this. And that's so

though the

um exact functions may differ. It's it's

the mindset that I like to carry from

it.

>> Right. It's a Well, it what you said is

perfect that it's a long business.

Boxing's been around for a long time and

the really elite trainers, the re the

really elite coaches, they know how to

prepare their fighters and they know

what fights to take and when to take

them, right?

>> And unfortunately with the UFC, like

sometimes

you get a call like the Malcolm

Wellmaker fight, you know, and you're

like, "Oh [ __ ] it would have been nice

to get two months to prepare for

Malcolm, but I have two days, right?

>> And I just fought. [ __ ] it. Roll the

dice." And you also were coming out of

nowhere and I don't think a lot of

people had time to prepare for you cuz

as good as you are when you fought

Wellmaker when you fought uh how do you

say his name? Estavan. What is his

>> Raphael Estan?

>> Rav Estan. He was also undefeated and

super skillful. He was a really good

fighter and still is. But um to have

those two performances in a row, the way

you looked, you looked like a guy like

if you were

20 years ago, you would have been a

[ __ ] alien. Like no one had seen

anybody like you before. That's how much

this sport has grown just in 20 years.

If you go back to like Ultimate Fighter

season 1, there was [ __ ] nobody like

you. Nobody like you back then,

>> right? You know, it really wasn't until

Anderson burst onto the scene shortly

after that that we really got to see

that kind of elite level of striking.

>> Yeah. I mean,

>> yeah, talk about an alien for that time.

That was Anderson Silva. That's that's

one of the top to ever do it. There's

there's no question.

>> Oh my god. People forget because maybe

they see his later fights in his career,

>> but you go back and watch him when he

was in his prime. I remember when when

he fought Chris Leeben, and Chris Leeben

is a murderous puncher. like one of the

hardest punchers that's ever fought in

the UFC. He's he's one of those guys

that's got that [ __ ] god-given crack,

>> right?

>> And he's just such a warrior. I mean,

wades into the storm, you know,

>> but that style is tailorade for him. And

when I was looking at the odds, a friend

of mine was there. I go, "Bet the house

on the Brazilian." I go, "Bet the

house." I go, "Listen to me. This is a

[ __ ] dude. Just wait." because

that's when he really came into his own

uh over in Cage Rage

>> when he that's when he really became

Anderson Silva.

>> That was a yellow cage. Was that Cage?

Yes. That's when he did that

>> the the elbow. The crazy elbow.

>> Yeah. Tony Frricklin.

>> Yeah. What was the It was like a upkick.

Like a crescent up kick. Was that Pride

or was that the cage rage?

>> He was on the bottom and he whipped his

leg over the top. It wasn't like a

straight up kick. He He kind of like

brought it over. Oh, I don't remember

that one.

>> Yeah, I don't I don't recall either.

>> Who Who was he fighting?

>> I don't know. I'm not I'm not good at

names always.

>> So, in Pride, it was uh who was he

fighting here, Jamie?

>> Uh Japanese gentleman.

>> Y Nokami. Oh, Yushkami. This was Rumble

on the Rock. This is BJ Penn's

promotion. Look at that. Oh,

>> yeah. He's just doing things that like

>> you nobody had ever thought of at that

time.

>> He gets that right leg loose, ties his

hands up. Bow. That's crazy. And Okami

was a beast. And they fought again in

the UFC later and he he KO'ed Okami.

>> Yeah. Stuff like that. The elbow you're

talking about just like

>> just a pioneer for it. You know, it's

not like he's watching film. He's not

sitting on YouTube watching

>> people do these things prior. He's the

one that's coming up with this.

>> Yeah. This is the crazy elbow. You know

what the the funny story about this

elbow? He was training that and his

coach told him, "Stop doing that. You're

not going to do that." And

>> so he made his wife hold pillows at home

>> and he was [laughter] he was practicing

it at home. He was having her hold a

pillow and he was just working on the

mechanics of that elbow. It's like he

wanted to prove his coach wrong, right?

>> And he wanted to get the knockout with

that that technique

>> and lo and behold, he did it.

>> Well, he had some great fights over

there. Um particularly the um uh the Lee

Murray fight. Did you ever see that

fight?

>> Um probably I Murray is right. He's the

the British dude that

>> became a bank robber.

>> He was the bank robber. Correct. Yeah.

>> Biggest heist in UK history.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And that was a bad dude, too.

>> Oh, he was a bad mother.

>> Everybody was scared of that dude.

>> Well, that guy could crack. He was

another guy. Had crazy power and just a

vicious dude. Just an absolutely vicious

guy who was legitimate criminal.

>> Yeah, exactly. He had that like that

whole aura and persona to him.

>> Yeah. He was a real gangster.

>> Yeah. That that brings a little bit more

of like this, you know, I don't want to

say fear, but like, oh, who's this guy?

You know,

>> the [ __ ] guy was an elite fighter and

he was also a elite criminal,

>> right? [laughter] Yeah. He's

multi-talented.

>> I mean, that's something in a movie.

Like a guy like who's a top tier

criminal who also competes and wins in

the UFC,

>> right? Yeah.

>> And won by triangle. He beat uh Jorge

Rivera by triangle.

>> Yeah. And it's crazy. I know. And you

have Anderson come in and just demolish

this dude. Yeah.

>> Just wrecked him. And he wrecked him

with technique. And it was a lot of it

was leg kicks.

>> Yeah.

>> He just Anderson's Muay Thai was at such

a different level. It was so artistic.

>> Yeah. I think that's the perfect word to

describe that was artistic cuz just

beautiful the way he set things up. I

mean, he made elite guys look

>> very brand new in the cage. And uh

>> I I didn't see very many close fights

with him till later in his career.

>> Yeah, it's a later in his career thing.

And I always say that with fighters, you

really have to look at them when they

were at their highest RPM, whatever.

It's you generally it's only a few

years,

>> but that few years like judge them by

that. Judge them by those performances

when they were just on fire.

>> And I I tell people you have to always

go back and watch those Anderson fights

when he front kick Vtor in the face,

>> right?

>> First time anybody had ever won by

knockout with a front kick to the face

in the UFC. Now people do it all the

time,

>> right?

>> But I didn't even think that was a good

option. Like there's a video of and I

grew up kicking. There's a video of me

and Eddie Bravo. We're working with

those Bob one of those Bob dummies and

he's like, "What do you think about a

front kick to the face?" I'm like, "It's

better to the body. I mean, you could

land it to the face, but you know, I

don't really see very many guys do it.

It's much more wrong."

>> Yeah, [laughter]

>> it's perfect.

>> Just watch the Anderson Silva fight.

>> And everybody does it now. So many guys

get knockouts with a front kick to the

face because you don't see it coming

when it comes straight up the middle. If

everything's coming around and all a

sudden something comes straight up the

middle and catches the bottom of your

chin.

>> For sure. I I like um I I like that side

kick to the body to the liver, throwing

that heel in the liver. I think that's

>> more of a natural motion, but I have

been working with the front kicks. I

like them a lot. Uh especially with that

with the weight on the back leg a little

bit and especially with these calf

kicks, people are really trying to bear

down and throw the calf kick hard.

That's that's uh was going to be my

technique in my last one was when that

when that calf kick comes off the very

beginning because that's what Fa does is

comes out he control looks for his

distance and he bases down he throws

that calf kick almost every single time

against every opponent and I was like

you know especially because I was

planning on going there one-handed and I

was like I just going to pull this front

leg up front front kick to the face and

it's going to land. It's going to be

beautiful. But yeah, I started to work

that like you you put all that weight on

that back leg. This one comes up fast

and the one I like better, especially

with the boxing as I come down here is

uh kind of getting that lean forward and

you're stepping back and then when

people think your face is in range

forward, you just pull back and throw

that one straight up the middle

>> and you're talking off the front leg

>> off the back leg on this on the second

one. You're kind of basing out here and

you're you're stepping back onto the to

the back leg and when they open up like

they're going to throw something,

>> you lean back and throw it up the

middle.

>> Yeah. changing the distance there so

people don't expect it.

>> For the calf kick, you're just light on

the front leg and you're throwing it off

the front leg. Are you sliding forward?

Are you just picking it up and stabbing?

>> I just pick it up and stab it cuz they

got to close a little bit of distance to

get that calf.

>> Mhm.

>> That one's um you know, the kick is a

longer range, but that one you have to

come a little bit closer

>> for me to throw it appropriately. Some

people smack it with the the foot or

whatever it is. I don't like that. I

like that Dutch style almost like a

soccer kick. just you're you're raising

it straight up and that shin bone is

touching that soft calf. And so to do it

that way, I get a little bit closer

distance, but then that's where, you

know, you set it up and all the other

stuff. You be a little safer doing it

that way.

>> Yeah, the calf kick is interesting

because a lot of guys are kind of just

going straight up,

>> right?

>> You know, like you ever see Yukioza

fight?

>> He's one of my favorite guys to watch

fights. That's That's probably like the

perfect example of throwing a very um

deliberate and and technical calf kick

is how he does it.

>> He destroys people's legs. Destroys

them. And he's kicking up. He's kicking

up all the time. And there's no pivot.

And it's so fast.

>> It's so fast. And there's no tell. And

he's throwing it in every combination.

So he's hitting you with a jab. He's

inside low kicking you. The left hook,

he's outside low kicking you.

>> Yeah. He's smacking you from all the

different levels

>> constantly and taking out your base

every time. Every time you're close

enough, he's taking out your base every

time. Every time from all angles. I love

watching this guy fight. He does that

cool thing, too. Like what he just did.

Check out that. Watch that. They gave

him trouble for that cuz you're not

supposed to do that in kickboxing. See,

he does that. He hooks the guy's leg.

>> So, he throws like a halfspeed kick.

Show back it up again so you can see

that. He throws like a half speed kick,

holds it,

>> and then trips him.

>> My dad was actually just talking about

that one with me. That's That's very

clean technique.

But he is such a wild guy to watch

because of the damage that he does to

guy's legs.

>> So this is what I love about the

artistic aspect of it and the technical

aspect. When people figure out, okay,

what do you do when you're fighting a

guy like this? Well, Jonathan Hagerty

figured it out. It's constant switch

stances, constant knees to the body,

moving, jabbing, constant movement. You

never let him get set up for those, you

know, and he took a lot of leg kicks and

that, but he landed way more than he

took. and he won the decision against

Yozos. It was a big win, but it was also

like a blueprint. Like if people got to

see that fight, they see it. See you can

find that fight. Jonathan Hagerty and

Yuki Yoza.

>> He did a really good job of picking that

front leg up. That's And that's going

back to MMA is something that it's still

developing, but I don't see a lot of

guys defend the calf kick. I see a lot

of guys willingly eat them. Yes.

>> And it's like you do that with the

shining guards on, you could probably

spar all day and take calf kicks, you

know,

>> sort of

>> if they're landing clean, like really

clean. Yeah, you're gonna feel it. Yeah.

But for the most part, you pick the leg

up, you pull it back a little bit, it

doesn't land super flush. You could take

it with shin guards on. You take you

take one good one with no shinguards on,

it's a completely different game. It it

takes, you know, you're that leg away

from you.

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So, look how Jonathan is never

stationary. Constantly switching

stances. Look, I mean, literally

constantly and constant movement. And

then when you're thinking about the

legs, the jab, the step forward, knee,

everything is constant movement. There's

never a chance for Yoza to set up. And

nice spinning back kick to the body

there.

>> So close, too.

>> Yeah, I know. He's He's wicked, man.

This dude's wicked. But Hagerty figured

him out, man. Look at that outside low

kick on a hop. I mean, in constant

stance switches and that switch knee to

the body. Look, Yoza is looking for

those, man. If you you could only take

so many of them from this guy, too. He's

got [ __ ] stones for shins.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's got no nerve endings on

anything below the knees.

>> It's really incredible, man. Watching

this fight is uh a real masterclass in

striking. And this one thing that I

always give credit to one for. I think

one has the absolute best strikers when

it comes to just pure striking, right?

And the exciting guys that they have

over there. Uh

>> Azadullah Iman Gazalia, have you seen

that guy fight?

>> Yeah.

>> He's my favorite. That I [ __ ] love

watching that guy fight. Like it's like

Jesus Christ, he's good.

>> And one of the guys that he trains with

just fought in the PFL, Mega Med. Did

you see that fight?

>> No.

>> I forget how to say his name. It's like

I think it's Abu or a I forget his name

but uh he put on a masterclass in

striking and he looked just like I uh

like uh Azadullah Iman Gazalia like the

way he was fighting like that style long

tall striker and these Dagistan guys man

you got Dagistan's got elite Muay Thai

too that's crazy. Yeah that's a dude uh

Amruu Amu Magamemedov. Well, speaking of

that,

>> show me a little bit of that cuz this

cat, he fights just like Acadullah, like

very similar. And I know they're from

the same place.

>> You talk about artistic, that's like

Zabarov

is another one.

>> Yes. Yeah. He and he was kind of the

first of those guys that you go, "Oh, I

I think of these guys as wrestlers." But

look at this guy. He's throwing 360

roundhouse kicks and wheel kicks.

>> Well, he was doing like I don't know,

not kung fu, but one of those practices

before he was ever wrestling.

Yeah, it was like Sancheu or something.

>> But you watch this cat fight. He fights

just like Azadullah. He's got that long

reach,

slick striking, wicked kicks. He he

throws a lot of high kicks.

And that dude Alvarez that he's fighting

was tough as [ __ ] dude, cuz he he he

took a lot before he finally wilted.

>> You could see he's hurting from the leg

kicks already before that. Oh,

>> he's getting destroyed.

>> Vicious. Being a long guy like that is

just so much more beneficial. That's why

everybody thinks it's all these big

muscle heads like like the OG UFC that

that's that's the fighter [laughter]

build.

>> The guy on the the guy on top of the

world with his fist.

>> It's like it's the tall long like skinny

guy that can strike. Well, like that's

the perfect like MMA build.

>> Yeah, because they can strike you from

six inches away from where you can

strike them. That's a crazy advantage.

Yeah, that's a back to where was with

Tai on Thursday, whatever it was. And

he's like I want to say he said 78 inch

reach.

>> Wow.

>> He's like he's like I have a 78 inch

reach. He's like so I can touch you guys

from this and that and southpaw and blah

blah blah. But I'm like well yeah like

>> that's like a light heavyweight reach.

>> Yeah. It's like well no dude they both

of those guys have crazy long reach.

It's ridiculous.

>> Real real long arms, real long legs.

Perfect for triangles. Perfect for for

any kind of dar guillotines anything.

rear nakeds. Rear naked with an arm in.

>> Yeah. And then you fight southpaw like

this.

>> It's like you can touch from a million

miles away. That's what me I'm the

opposite. My whole style is all the way

out or all the way in. I I got to get in

and get to work in there, you know? And

and there's something to be said about

that, too, because those two styles

cancel each other out. If you have a

long guy, he's not going to fight as

well on the inside. It's not saying that

he can't, especially with the Muay Thai,

the way they clinch is actually very

efficient. And and with the boxing

stuff, opening stuff up and being able

to get your your longer limbs in there

is is perfectly viable as well. It's

just you got to play off of your of you

know, your god-given talents and your

assets. And so the shorter guy is going

to negate the long guy by getting

inside. And if the long guy can maintain

the distance and keep him there, then

he's going to win that.

>> Yeah, there's benefits to all body

types. It's just knowing what to do with

that body type. Like look, Mike Tyson is

arguably the greatest heavyweight of all

time. He's in the in the conversation

with Ali and Joe Lewis and

there's a few guys that you could like

put into that that category as the

greatest heavyweight of all time. And I

think Mike Tyson certainly in his prime

was right there.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, Lennox Lewis, you got to put

Lennox Lewis in that conversation. Even

prime time Larry Holmes, you got to put

him in that conversation, right? But

Mike Tyson was 5'11, you know, as a

heavyweight. That's crazy. And he was

only like 215, 220 in his prime. But

that bombing and weaving and constant

movement, he would just overwhelm guys.

You see the tall guys putting their

hands out, they just they were just

dealing with this [ __ ] Wolverine that

was running towards them.

>> Yeah. And and I had just seen something

from him or read a quote and he he said

it wasn't my physicality that was my

greatest asset. It was my elusiveness.

It was that I was so elusive that I

could get in and I could get to work,

you know.

>> Yes.

>> And

a lot of people, unless you're like a

real um practitioner or, you know, a

student of the sport, they don't see

that. They just see they just see the

bombs coming and they attribute that to

he's got punching power. He's this

monster. But there's just so much more

intricate. You know, it's like you said

about Anderson, like this is an art

form. This is it's a game of of setting

things up. It's a chess match. You know,

everybody looks at it like it's

checkers, but it's there's so many more

moves that could be made and that need

to be made to be the best at this.

>> And you really want to be appreciated by

the people that understand that. You

don't want to be the guy that gives into

the the howls and the the cheers of the

casuals. The the real feeling, the good

feeling that fighters get is when

someone is a true student of the game,

who really understands what they like, I

love it when you're doing this. I love

that thing you do when you do. There's

those that's what guys want to hear.

They want to hear like from their fellow

fighters. Like if you know a like when

an elite fighter goes up to another

elite fighter, it's like, "Bro, I

[ __ ] love what you're doing." You

could see they're like, "Thank Like it's

like hits different% means more when

when you know that a guy is really

operating at a very high level,

>> right? Yeah. Cuz the rest of the people

have never stepped room into even a gym

to spar or like go a couple rounds of

grappling, you know? So it's

>> they often times they don't know what

they're seeing.

>> They have no understanding.

>> Sometimes they think when the guy's

missing it's cuz he sucks, you You know

what is funny is that

even I have had that realization cuz

like growing up it was like me and my

pops watching UFC and to me I you know

that was that was my thing. But I would

always sit there and go well why doesn't

this guy do this? It's right there. Just

do that. It's right there. It's like

dude you're not standing in a cage

surrounded by thousands of people. You

don't have the same fatigue. You don't

know injuries you're going into with it.

you don't know what you practiced

leading up to it that you even have the

capacity to think about and to act on.

It's like there's just so many things.

So like I watch stuff now and I'm so

much better at that because I'm sitting

there going he could do that but I don't

know what he's seeing, you know? I don't

know what's going on in his mind. So

>> yeah, there's there's different levels

to it.

>> Yeah, for sure. It's I mean it's a very

complex game. It really is. I wanted to

ask you a question. Do you think that it

was a benefit for you to lose your first

two fights? Do you think there's maybe

something to that? Cuz we were talking

about your first two opponents in the

UFC being undefeated until they fought

you. They had never experienced loss as

a professional before and then they get

on this crazy big hype thing. And

there's something about being undefeated

as well, especially when you're a guy

like Wellmaker who's not just

undefeated, but a knockout artist. Like

people get really really jazzed up and

excited about that.

Do you think that maybe having that bad

feeling of loss earlier in your career

maybe grounded you more?

>> Yeah, certainly. I uh I went six and0

undefeated as an amateur, but I can tell

you at that time I was not living a

fighter's lifestyle to the fullest. You

know, at that time I would literally go

to practice in the morning and then I

had to go to work at night or whatever.

But I was like, man, fighting is the

best. You just go wake up, practice

once, you get to kick it. the whole rest

of the day you get to go fight and make

all this money and and live your dream.

That's all it takes. This is this is

cool and all and I'm winning all these

amateur scene fights which that's what

the amateurs are for for learning and

getting your experience. But um yeah, it

really showed me that there was change

that needed to be be made in what I did

with with fighting and what I did

outside of fighting. And outside of

fighting was was arguably more

important. you know, there was a lot

that I needed to change, uh, a lot that

I needed to refocus on and and make

right by. And it wasn't until I did

those things that I saw this this

drastic change. You know, it wasn't

until I that I erased all the negatives

and then filled it with all the

positives that I'm able to be on a

10ight win streak doing what I'm doing

now because who knows? I mean, maybe

maybe I would have changed that, but I

don't think it would have been as

drastic if I hadn't experienced those

two losses the way I did.

>> So, before those two losses, your first

two professional fights, were you kind

of [ __ ] off?

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> Yeah. What were you doing?

>> Just everything. I mean,

>> drinking, [snorts] partying,

>> smoking, drinking, being a delinquent,

being

>> not the best partner. Um,

>> how old were you back then? Uh, I came

back from college in 2017. I, uh, tore

my meniscus in a dual meet and then my

coach was

>> same knee.

>> Uh, my right knee, different knee. Coach

is an [ __ ] about it. I snap, crackle,

popped all the way through the rest of

the season. Wasn't until after an

[ __ ] about in what way? Like you

didn't want to make

>> He just ignored it like completely. He

just pretty much told me suck it up.

Like,

>> oh, what a great coach.

>> And uh, yeah, exactly. That's why I

didn't go back. I mean, it was a lot of

things. I was in Bristol, Tennessee. So,

it's like there's [snorts] not a whole

lot to do out there coming from SoCal.

So, that was a a culture shock. I was on

my own for the very first time. And

then, yeah, I got hurt. So, then I