How do I know when to quit something?

>> It's okay. You can quit things.

>> Hang on a minute. When I went to the gym

this morning, there was the Michael

Jordan quote.

>> If you [music] quit once, it becomes a

habit. Never quit. He's wrong. And it's

very clear that he's wrong. And I've

failed more times than most people are

listening to this. And the simple secret

for the power of quitting is the dip.

And the dip describes something in the

world that no one talks about. And so,

one of the things I try to do is help

people understand it. Because my whole

career is about how can I help people do

better, find [music] why they're stuck,

realize what's holding them back, go

solve the problem. Because problems are

opportunity. And I believe all problems

can be solved. But what we're wrestling

now with is people are afraid. People

are lonely. People are disconnected.

They're victims of all sorts of media

and commercial systems. And we've been

indoctrinated to not notice it.

>> So I really want to just focus in on

people who feel stuck right now.

>> So there's this [music] philosophy which

is the key to figuring out our

stuckness. The donkey is trapped halfway

[music] between the water and the

carrot. The donkey is thirsty and

hungry, but he's unwilling to move away

[music] from either of the things he

wants. So, he starves to death and he

dies of thirst. And all of us do this

and we do it with one simple word, but I

want to run the marathon, but I don't

want to get tired. I want to have a job

that fulfills me, but [music] I also

like this car and this house. And so, I

can give you tools that can help you

overcome resistance. And also I can give

you the mechanics to become the person

your future self thanks you for.

>> And then the skill of overcoming shame

or embarrassment [music] might be one of

the most important skills in the modern

world today. How do I get better at

dealing with that?

>> So let me try to make it really simple.

>> The floor is yours.

>> So

this is super interesting to me. My team

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And some of you have told us according

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free, to keep it improving year over

year and week over week, it is just to

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promise since the very beginning of the

D ofio and I will not let you down.

Please help us. Really appreciate it.

Let's get on with the show.

[music]

Seth Golden, for my audience who have

just clicked on this conversation, my

question to you is by the time this

conversation is done, what do you hope

that they're going to come away with?

What questions in their life are they

going to have answers to?

>> Some of your best guests are world

experts and they show up and they say,

"I did the research. I did the math. Do

this because I told you to." And I've

never done that. I show up and I try to

paint a picture for people of what the

words mean and what the systems are like

and then encourage you to do things

because you told.

And so what I think we're wrestling now

with is people are afraid. People are

lonely. People are disconnected. They're

victims of all sorts of media and

commercial systems. And we've been

indoctrinated to not notice it. And

there are problems all around us. And if

we can solve problems, we can make

things better. So what I want to help

people do is find the words to talk

about their problem, realize what's

holding them back, go solve the problem.

Because when we solve problems, we make

things better for ourselves and for

other people. So problems aren't

something to be avoided. Problems are

are opportunity.

And I believe all problems can be

solved. Some things aren't problems.

They're situations and you have to live

with them. But if it's a problem, it

means there's a solution. And I would

like to help people find the vision and

the words to see where they're stuck,

why they're stuck, and whether it's a

problem or a situation. If it's a

problem and someone's going to benefit

from you solving it, I hope I can give

you the mechanics, the tools, the

vocabulary to go move forward toward

better.

>> And what kind of problems specifically

do you try and solve for people in your

work, but also in this more recent book

that you've just written called the not?

>> So, I don't solve problems for people,

they solve problems for themselves. And

when someone points out to you

where the problem is, you can now make a

new decision. Right? So if someone's

applying for college, it's super easy if

you're 17 years old to get all hung up

on I'm about to be judged. How are they

going to know the real me? What if I get

rejected? Am I a loser? Have I wasted my

whole life? But once you see the college

industrial complex, once you understand

the agenda of the admissions office,

once you realize what people are looking

at and why, you say, "Oh, this is a

game. This is a game like Settlers of

Katan or Monopoly. And if I win this

game, it's not because I'm a good

person. It's because I played the game

better. If I lose the game, same thing.

Once you see that, all the drama and

entanglement of applying for college

moves to the side. You say, "What's in

it for the admissions officer to see the

person I want to present to them?

Because if I can solve their problem,

I'm going to go to the school I want to

go to." Well, that's true in so many

parts of our lives. is there. We engage

with a system or a person or a boss or a

co-orker or spouse and we think we're

right. We've got all this noise in our

head. We think everyone can hear the

noise in our head. They can't. We think

everyone wants what we want. They don't.

And so we show up saying, "It's my turn.

I need to get this." And now we have a

problem. And the reason we have a

problem is because that other person

thinks they're as right as we think

we're right. And they have a different

problem. So we're colliding. But if we

can see that all of this is a dynamic

within family systems, corporate

systems, commercial systems,

we can understand what are the forces at

work. Now that we see them, we can use

them to get to where we want to go.

>> You know, it's funny because I I go out

into the world and I I sit in taxis and

I I walk down the street and people come

up to me and I get sort of an idea of

the personas of people watching. And

because I get in a lot of taxis, I have

a lot of conversations with taxi

drivers. So, they're one persona in my

head. And then, you know, the other is

maybe like a a mother with with with a

kid or two who's trying to make a change

in in their sort of later career. For

those people, the average person

listening right now,

>> where is it that they want to go to? And

I don't mean specifically, I don't mean

job. Where is it that they want to go to

and where are they?

>> Right? I think most people we meet would

like to be seen, missed if they are

gone, understood, and of use. Right?

That's something that's crosses borders

and cultures. And yet we end up being a

cog in a system. The Uber driver racing

around doing things they wouldn't

ordinarily do because the system is

pushing them to cut every corner. or the

mom who's struggling because the

financial system that she's stuck in is

pushing her away from the kind of work

or parenting she wants to do. And many

of those things are injustices and some

of those things cannot be fixed by an

individual. We can accept those as

situations. You're not going to change

Uber. Uber is going to be the way Uber

is going to be. And if you choose to be

an Uber driver, the rules of Uber come

with it. But other things are things

where we get to make a choice. And I'm

not saying I want to be really clear.

I'm not saying anyone deserves an

injustice. Anyone deserves where they're

are right now. But given who you are,

given where you are, what are the

choices you do have? And how do we get

out of the not the stuckness of wanting

two things that we can't have at the

same time? Because it's when we want two

things at the same time that cannot

coexist that we feel stuck. And that

feeling of stuckness robs us from the

chance to be of use. It robs us from the

chance to get to that place that deep

down we want to go. So I use the word

purpose and what I mean by that is not

you're born with a purpose because I

don't think you were. But you can choose

with intent the purpose of whatever

you're going to do tomorrow. That

purpose might be I need to get paid.

That purpose might be I need to get this

date. That purpose might be I need to

put something on the internet that

changes the lives of a thousand people.

When you say your purpose out loud, the

purpose of this work is so and so. Then

I say back to you the very first

question which is the key. Who who is

this for? Is it for everyone or is it

for 12 people or a thousand people? What

change are you here to make and for who?

And if we can't figure out who the who

is, then we feel like there's just this

amorphous horrible heavy blanket on us

trapping us. But if you can find the

five people you can solve a problem for

or the 25 people who would miss you, it

starts to work. So, let me give you a

quick story to help you understand the

analogy. You're a stand-up comic. You've

been working really hard. Um, and your

agent calls, I got a great gig. So, you

go and there's 100 people there and you

bomb. Not one laugh for 10 minutes. And

you leave the stage. Then you find out

it's a tour group from Italy and no one

in the room speaks English.

So, who bombed? Right? It's your agent

who put you in the wrong room. There was

nothing wrong with your jokes. It was a

mismatch because the audience didn't

speak English. So, you're allowed to

say, "It's not for you." When we show up

to try to engage with someone it's not

for, if we read the comments, if we read

the reviews, and someone gives a great

book a one-star review,

all that one star review says is, "This

book wasn't for me." That's all they

needed to write. Nothing else in the

review is helpful because someone else

thought it was five-star book. So the

author has learned nothing. So we pick

who it's for. What is our intent? This

person I'm going to help. I'm going to

trade with. I'm going to engage. I'm

going to sell to or whatever. Who

exactly? What do they believe? What do

they want? What are they afraid of? If I

can solve their problem,

they're going to want to engage. And I

can be of use. And then I can do it

again. and then I can do it again.

>> Is this a point about getting unstuck in

your current situation? Is it come right

back to who you want to serve, their

persona, what their needs are, and then

focusing on that? Cuz I'm thinking again

about this Uber driver who feels

somewhat powerless in their life. They

they they think I've got to sell my time

to make this much money, but I'm not

satisfied and I'm not fulfilled. So, how

does what you've just said sort of

dovetail into that person's life?

So people sometimes call me a marketer

and I had the luxury of starting my

career right when television was dying.

So before that marketing meant big

companies buying ads, interrupting

people, hustling them etc. And then it

shifted. So I got to define marketing as

anything I wanted. And I have defined

marketing as telling a true story to the

right people in a way that helps them

get where they want that they will tell

their friends about. If you do those

steps, you're not doing any of the icky

part. You're being of service. And you

don't have to have a budget to do this.

We are all marketing. When you walk in

in tatty jeans to a job interview at an

investment bank, you've just marketed

yourself by your clothing, right?

There's a signal that you chose to send

and that they will receive or not

receive. So when we think about the

agency, the freedom that each of us

have, we have the freedom to decide who

we're going to show up for and what's

the story that's built in. So back to

this Uber driver, if you want to make a

living driving a car and meeting

interesting people, one thing you could

do is give up all of your freedom to

Uber and let them find you, the

passengers. But the other thing you

could do is realize that there are 75

people who live in this suburb of your

town who need to get somewhere reliably

and safely and would be delighted to

have you be their driver. And when you

hand out the right cards to the right

people, making it clear what you do and

don't do and who you do it for and don't

do it for, getting to 15 regular

customers is not out of reach

>> as a private chauffeur.

>> Yeah. that path is a better use of his

tomorrow

>> than [clears throat] simply being ground

out by some social media company or or

ride sharing service.

>> Bringing it back to this this rope thing

over here because I really want to just

focus in on people who feel stuck right

now. The essence of where I'm trying to

go to this conversation is I want to

speak to people that currently feel

stuck but they know that they're capable

of more. They know that they could have

another life, but they practically don't

understand, I guess, both the

psychology, the systems, the mechanisms,

and I guess what they can control in

order to move from where they are to

where they want to be.

>> Right.

>> There's a rope here. Yeah.

>> And it serves as a somewhat interesting

analogy for I guess being stuck and

pulling on the wrong thing.

>> Yeah. You sound like a magician. Yeah.

Okay.

>> I mean, do you know the analogy? Because

I don't.

>> Yes, I do. So, 2,500 years ago, this guy

named Alexander. who didn't have a last

name yet, showed up outside of a small

village in Turkey and there was a legend

from King Midas. There was a wagon there

and it was tied with a complicated knot.

And the legend was whoever could untie

this knot would become the ruler of huge

parts of Europe. And Alexander was 21

years old and he did not use a knife. He

did not cut anything. But he looked at

this knot that was tied to the wagon and

he did one thing that no one before him

had ever done. He realized that there

was a pole in the center of it that it

was tied around and he removed

the pole and then he could see by

looking very carefully how the whole

knot was held together

and he could untie it with no trouble

whatsoever.

And then he became Alexander the Great

because the secret the simple secret was

we are stuck because we can't see what's

holding us there. If what's holding us

there we cannot change like gravity is

holding us to earth. Gravity is not a

problem. Gravity is a situation. Going

to the moon doesn't deny gravity. It

works with the fact that it exists. But

we are working with problems, but we're

confused

because we want two things. So, can I

show you what I mean?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, here's an actual carrot and

here is actual water. This is not

actually a dunkey, but let's pretend

this is a dunkey. Okay. In Burden's

philosophy experiment from a couple

hundred years ago, the dunkey is hungry

and thirsty. He has complete freedom. He

can move. And he's halfway between a

pile of carrots and a bucket of water.

And he's trapped because every time he

moves toward the water, he's moving away

from the carrot. Can't do that cuz he's

hungry. And every time he moves toward

the carrot, he's moving away from the

water. Can't do that because he's

thirsty. And so in the experiment,

because we're trapped, we end up dying

of hunger and thirst. And all of us do

this. And we do it with one simple word

which is but. I want this but I also

want that. Right? I want to have a

creative life but I never want to get

rejected. I want to run the marathon but

I don't want to get tired. And we hide

the butt. We don't say the butt out

loud. So my favorite story which I talk

about in the book is Jackson Pollock. So

Jackson Pollock was the most famous

painter in America in the 1940s about 80

years ago. He was on the cover of Life

magazine. He had three years where he

could do no wrong. His paintings were

snapped up. Everyone saw him as a little

bit of a hero. It's very unusual for an

artist to be a hero in their own

lifetime.

And his wife Lee Kraner later said that

he felt like he had done everything he

could do with this cycle of art. And

what most people in that situation would

have done is become a Jackson Pollock

cover band. Paint more versions of his

old paintings. Take the money. You've

won. He wanted to be a brilliant

creator. He wanted to be on the

frontier. So he stopped painting Jackson

Pollock paintings. He went to a studio

and came up with a whole new style.

Different size canvas, different

approach. It didn't look like Jackson

Pollock had done it. and he brought it

to this big show and the world yawned.

Not one piece sold. And to this day, if

you go to a museum, you will probably

not see a second cycle Jackson Pollock.

This led him to become even more of a

substance abuser, which led to him dying

in a tragic car crash that killed

somebody else as well. Because Jackson

Pollock wanted two things. He wanted to

live on the frontier and be the creative

artist on the cutting edge, but he also

wanted to be the celebrity who could

sell everything he made and was seen as

a genius. He forgot how many years it

took the first Jackson Pollock to

accomplish that. And because the second

Jackson Pollock didn't hit, the butt

became really loud in his head. You

can't have two of these things if they

are diametrically opposed. We need to

find where is the butt. I want this

butt. I want that. It's usually hiding

as an and but once we see it, once we

say, "Oh, that is what is keeping me

from giving the people I'm trying to

serve what they need. That's why I'm not

getting where I need to go." We can

remove the pole,

see the entanglements, see what we're

measuring wrong, forgive them, make a

new decision, and the problem goes away.

>> And you can substitute and, you're

saying, instead of but. The and is the

thing that emphasizes it. I want to be a

creative person and I'm eager to be

rejected and not people have people get

the joke for a while and have to live in

the back of my van because that's what

creative people do. That's part of it. I

get that. I want to be popular on social

media. And that means I can't be honest

and authentic and consistent because I

got to keep chasing X, Y, or Z. And when

we look at the people who consistently

get big clicks, that's what they're

doing. They're not saying, "This is who

I am." They're going to chase the next

thing. If you're not happy with that,

please don't do it. But the and

amplifies the work, but undercuts it.

There should be a button just down below

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And if you're not subscribed, please

could you do us a favor and hit that

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you're someone that watches our show,

but you haven't yet hit that button.

Thank you so much. There's people

listening right now that are maybe they

got three kids under the age of seven.

I'm thinking about my brother. He's got

three kids under the age of seven.

>> And they also want to launch a company,

>> right? And they they might feel that

there's a tension between those two

things because they on one hand want to

be the best dad on earth like my brother

wants to be but at the same time they

really want to launch that AI startup.

>> Yeah.

>> Now these two things are tugging at each

other.

>> Correct.

>> What do they do?

>> Well, the first thing they did was

really important. They named it.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Second thing can't do two things

at the same time, but you can do many

things over time.

And what that means is he made a

commitment to three small humans in this

moment. He's going to go to work, but he

can't go to work for 100 hours a week.

So he needs to pick a project where the

amount of time he has is enough time to

do the project really well. He cannot

start an open AI competitor. It is off

the table. That is impossible because

the thing he's committed to cannot

coexist with that.

>> That's hard to admit,

>> right? But it unlocks the door to what

we can do. If he can figure out how to

build an entity where he's not hiding,

where he's actually showing up on the

hook to a group of people and say, "I

know more about AI than you, and I'm

going to use this tool to do X, and they

pay him for it."

Now, at the end of a 40-hour week, he

appropriately goes and does the work of

a dad, right? That's a business that's

creating value for people that will make

you more profit than OpenAI made last

year, right? So the point I'm making is

media keeps showing up and saying what

you're supposed to do is be a

Kardashian. What you're supposed to do

is be Sam Alman. No, that's not what

you're supposed to do. You're supposed

to make promises and keep them for the

smallest audience. That's enough. You

can't maximize two things that use the

same space. Do you think it's possible

to know if a motivation or a goal or a

dream you have or an ambition you have

is real or not? And when I say real, I

mean like did I just inherit this from

expectations from Instagram or from my

family or because my brother-in-law is

rich and I want to kind of compete. Is

there a way to know if my my the goal I

say I want is a real one?

>> Yeah, I love this. This is brilliant.

This gets back to the idea of purpose.

What is the change you seek to make with

the next cycle of your effort? Not your

purpose on earth, but the purpose of the

work you're about to do. Are you trying

to make Mark Zuckerberg happy? Are you

trying to make an anonymous commenter

happy? Are you trying to teach troll a

lesson? Because when you say that out

loud, you realize that's a ridiculous

purpose and a trap.

>> If [clears throat] we can be clear,

what's in it for me? If I put this time

in, what will I get in return?

So my company has 75 people, let's say,

and should I grow to have 250 people?

Well, what would be in it for me to be a

CEO of 250 people instead of 75 people?

>> You're going to have a bigger headache.

You're going to have more money

theoretically.

>> Theoretically, but what you're really

going to earn is a different kind of

status. You have to decide if that

status boss of more people that status

what I get to say at the cocktail party

that status of what could happen after

that is worth the price you're going to

pay to do this or not. And so we keep

making these choices about what is the

purpose of this work. And that leads to

the key from Steve Presfield which is

resistance. And resistance is any

feeling we have that keeps us from doing

generous generative creative work of any

kind. So for example, writer's block is

resistance. For example, you're going

out on a date and you change your outfit

six times. Resistance shows up in so

many of the things we do. And the

systems around us indoctrinate us

because they want us to be cogs in the

system. They want us to say, "Well, how

do I get an A? How do I get permission

to do X, Y, or Z? I'm not going to

initiate anything.

So, it's easier for your brother to deal

with the resistance in his head by

saying, "I'm stuck." than it is for him

to say, "I changed the lives of 17

people this weekend." Whereas, if we

kept drilling into what's your purpose,

I think he would say, "Yeah, changing

the lives of people is more important to

me than making Business Week magazine

happy because I built some company." Is

it useful to try and name the resistance

in order to overcome it?

>> You can't make resistance go away ever.

You can dance with it. You can invite it

in for tea. You can name it. You can say

the reason I'm hesitating to do this is

resistance. You can say, "I don't feel

like it. I got to go do this other thing

instead. I don't want to host a small

party." Resistance. My friend Lisa moved

across the country to be with her

partner all the way to Los Angeles. knew

three people in the whole city. She

says, "I don't want to live a lonely

life in Los Angeles. I'm going to have a

potluck dinner every Friday. I'm going

to start by inviting the three people I

know. And every week, you can come back

if you bring a new person.

50 weeks later, she has a network of 400

people, all good friends."

Anyone could have done that. No one

does. Resistance. What if I invite

someone and they say no? What if I

invite someone I don't like them? What

if I invite someone and they don't like

me? Resistance, resistance, resistance.

Name the baggage. Drop the baggage. Do

it. Once you can name the baggage, you

can say this is why I am feeling stuck.

If I can let go of this other thing, I

can move toward the carrot because I can

forgive the water. I was sort of running

through different people in my head that

I'm that I know. Again, trying to think

about the personas of the people

listening. And one of the things I

realized is that everybody's starting

from a very different place here,

>> right?

>> And why is that? Why is it that some

people are quite good at dealing with

resistance? They can invite around

strangers and then other people are

living in fear. They're almost Yeah.

They never take a risk.

>> Yeah. Well, a big part of it is

privilege. It's injustice. It's living

in a culture that never gives you the

benefit of the doubt. But even if I look

among a group of people who all have the

same amount of privilege, there's still

somebody who is at the marketplace

helping strangers find where they're

going. There's still somebody who, you

know, I have a family friend went to an

Ivy League school. He wanted to be an

actor and he went to apply to the improv

troop for auditions and they picked 10

people and he came in 11th and he called

me up. He was very upset and I said,

"Why don't you start your own improv

troop? You don't need any equipment. You

don't need a permit. You just need four

people to do improv with. Start your own

improv troop." And the irony, the reason

I remember the story is he couldn't do

it. I mean, isn't that what improv is?

Start your own improv troop. And so, you

know, I run a online community called

Purple.space. And on Purple, we got

thousands of people who are coaching

each other. And it's the opposite of a

social network. There's no scams.

There's no hustle. Nobody sells anything

to anybody else. It's just I'll talk you

through my

not you talk me through yours. Let's

hold each other accountable. Well,

someone needs to go first. Everyone

wants to be invited to an engagement

like that, but few people want to start

one because you're afraid of being

rejected because it's one step short of

dying. So, when we can name this and

realize it's actually not at all related

to dying, this isn't about hustling

someone and getting in their face to

sell them something. This is about

offering to solve their problem as you

solve your problem by naming the thing

and figuring out where we can be of

value.

>> One of the things that I've experienced

as a podcaster is a lot of people come

up to me in the street and they'll tell

me about the podcast idea that they've

had for four years. [laughter]

>> And I it's quite a curious thing to

observe because it appears on the

surface that they are serious, but the

very nature that they've been mulling it

for a couple of years means that there's

probably some kind of resistance there.

>> Correct. Exactly. So I for a couple

years my friend uh Alex Depal and I ran

the podcasting fellowship. So thousands

of people went through this workshop to

start a podcast and the reason podcasts

are such a great example is everyone

knows what a podcast is and the cost of

starting a podcast is less than a

dollar. So why don't you have one,

right? Okay. Well, so we start the cycle

by give me all the reasons you can't

have a podcast. And one of the ones that

comes up is well I don't think I could

get good guests. M

>> and then we would say, "Okay, who would

be the best guest you could ever get?"

And amazingly, Michelle Obama's name

comes up.

Michelle Obama is not going to be on

your podcast, [laughter]

but who would you need to have on your

podcast as the guest before Michelle

Obama that would lead her more likely to

say yes? And who would be the guest

before that and the guest before that?

And let's go all the way back to your

next door neighbor. Can you get your

next door neighbor to be a guest on your

podcast? Yes. So go make that podcast

and just play it for the 20 people who

are in this circle. And at that point,

half the people can't do it. There's no

technical reason why. It's just too hard

to say to your next door neighbor, can I

interview you for 20 minutes? And then

show it to somebody else because

resistance.

And so the hack I give people is start a

blog under another name, under an

assumed name. No one will know you wrote

it. Do it for 100 days in a row. If you

do that for 100 days in a row, I'm

betting you're going to want to put your

real name on it. But if not, at least

you understand there was nothing fatal

about posting something in public for

100 days in a row with somebody else's

name on it. So that's obviously not

where the writer's block is. It's in

resistance. Two things at once. I want

to do this. I want to be recognized, but

I don't want it to fail. I don't want to

be disrespected. I don't want to lose

status. And those two things keep us

paralyzed. And the system likes it like

that.

>> What you did there is you took the

resistance and you tried to break it

down into the smallest possible piece.

>> Correct. Yes.

>> So you took a big piece of resistance

which is how do I get Michelle Obama on

my podcast. You broke it down into I

need to go ask my next door neighbor to

come on my podcast.

>> Yeah.

>> And then you broke it even smaller to

I'm going to start an anonymous blog.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz when we call our own bluff, it's

very uncomfortable, but it's better than

someone else calling her bluff. And this

gets back to my posture of I can't solve

your problem, but maybe I can give you

tools that can help you name your

problem so that in a safe place you can

talk to somebody about where is the

resistance? Why am I in my head about

this? What's the smallest unit of value

for the smallest possible audience that

I could do that would make a difference

for them? Bob Leitz writes the most

popular music blog in the world.

Everybody in the music industry knows

him. I promise you when he started he

had five readers. My blog has a million

readers. When I started I had five

readers. That's the way they all start.

That's how your podcast started. Five

listeners.

>> When you um you broke it down there and

you turned it into an anonymous blog.

What I I guess what you were also doing

is you were breaking down the

embarrassment into smaller and smaller

and smaller and smaller pieces of

embarrassment, right? But like

irrespective there was still

embarrassment. And I heard this phrase

embarrassment is the cost of entry.

Would you agree with the the general

idea that irrespective of what you do,

you're going to have to be embarrassed.

You're going to have to like pay that as

the the fee of entry to almost anything

outside of your current context and

identity.

>> All right. So let's talk about

lifeguards and imposttor syndrome. So

imposter syndrome was named by two

social scientists about 70 years ago.

Imposter syndrome is that feeling when

you're doing something important or new

that you're a little bit of a fake or a

fraud and that someone else ought to be

doing this instead of you. So, the story

I tell is about being a lifeguard. So,

in Canada, you have to get your bronze

medallion to be a lifeguard. And imagine

you're on uh Canoe Lake on duty. There's

six lifeguards on the dock and a kid

starts drowning right in front of you.

The first thing that might come to mind

is I just barely got my bronze medallion

and that guy two docks down is a much

better swimmer than me. This is someone

else should say it. And then you

realize, no, no, it's right in front of

you. This is your kid. You jump in the

water. Do you apologize for your stroke?

Do you say I'm really sorry I'm not

getting there as fast? You save the kid.

That's what lifeguards do. The kid is

going to thank you and their parents are

going to thank you. That's the work of a

lifeguard. Lifeguards are able to

overcome resistance because it's such a

vivid thing. Well, if someone's going to

send an email newsletter to someone who

asked for it and that might help them

get to where they're going, where's the

embarrassment exactly? And shame is this

interesting emotion because we must

receive it. It's sent to us all the

time, but you have to receive it for it

to work. Now, I'm walking on 74th

Street, not far from here, past this

little pocket playground, and I hear a

four-year-old inside the playground

taunting somebody else. And this kid is

making fun of this guy, making fun of

his clothes, making fun of the fact that

he's bald. And then I realize the kid's

taunting me

because he was just, you know, it felt

safe for him, and he was just yelling at

bystanders. The point was, it instantly

brought me back to third grade.

instantly brought me back to what does

it feel like to be bullied? But I wait,

first of all, you're on the other side

of a fence. I'm never going to see you

again. You cannot put any shame on me.

It doesn't it bounces off of me. And

when we can get to useful work for a

small audience of people, we're allowed

to say to someone who doesn't get the

joke, "Sorry, it's not for you. I

forgive you. I don't have to accept your

shame. I don't have to accept the

embarrassment you want to give me

because I'm here for the right reason.

And if it's not for you, we both learned

something.

>> I guess because of the internet as well.

Embarrassment is everywhere and shame is

everywhere. People are you start

anything on the internet, there's going

to be some troll that tells you it's

terrible. Even when we started this

podcast, I mean, still today we get a

lot of people telling us it's

terrible. But

>> um because it's everywhere,

one could almost argue that um

overcoming it is now a superpower

because you know, everybody that does

anything is going to encounter it. And

you know how painful it is to deal with

that and you also know that most people

won't. That actually the skill of

mastering like overcoming shame or

embarrassment or critical feedback or

whatever it might be might be one of the

most important skills in the modern

world today when there's so much

negative feedback and so much shame or

embarrassment or whatever. And just

that's what you that's what I was

thinking of when you're saying it's like

how how do I get better at dealing with

that?

>> Well, let's look at it slightly

differently because I think that's a

great point. But practical empathy says,

"I don't know what you know. I didn't

have the day you had. I don't want what

you want." And that's okay. And I can

forgive that and I don't have to take it

personally. I can simply take it

seriously. And those are different

things. Here's an interesting semi-

business example. You've been to Shake

Shack?

>> Yes.

>> My friend Danny Meyer started Shake

Shack. It's now a multi-billion dollar

company. Shake Shack is based on his

youth in St. Louis, Missouri. and he

grew up with crinkle cut French fries.

Crinkle cut French fries are the secret

to a certain kind of fast food hamburger

joint. And fancy New York restaurant

critics, Ed Lavine, the New York Times

said, "What are you doing? You're making

this whole big deal out of everything is

handmade and fresh. You're serving

frozen crinkle cut French fries that we

can buy in the freezer at the

supermarket. You need to make real

French fries." So Danny, his status is

associated with the fanciest restaurants

in the United States. And he and his

team see this assault they're getting on

being embarrassed about the French fries

which are at the heart of their menu. So

they spend millions of dollars over the

course of a year researching potatoes,

reconfiguring every single restaurant,

putting in a different kind of fryer,

making fresh cut French fries is a

really big challenge. Also, fresh cut

French fries are a living thing, and in

May, the potatoes are different than

they are in November. So, sometimes a

fresh cut French fry is the best French

fry you ever had. And sometimes it's

limp and not very good. And they

switched to fresh cut French fries

because they wanted the status that came

from New York cultural critics saying,

"These are guys authentic. They're the

real deal." And the French fries were no

good. and the entire internet blew up

and say, "What have you done to Shake

Shack?" And the staff hated making them

and it was a mess and you had to clean

things differently. Nothing good came of

this shift except making a couple people

in New York City happy because that's

who they decided to listen to. And one

day, Danny looked at this and said,

"What is the purpose of the French fries

at Shake Shack? Do the French fries at

Shake Shack exist to help a non-C

customer feel good about eating at a

Danny Meyer restaurant or do the French

fries at Shake Shack exist to further

the story of what it is to come to Shake

Shack? And they ripped everything out

and they went back to the crinkle cut

fries and the world rejoiced. profits

went up, productivity went up, and they

got back to what they were trying to do

in the first place by forgiving and

ignoring the people who needed to say,

"You need fresh cut French fries."

Because that's what they stood for. But

it wasn't what the business was for.

>> This sounds like a business story, but

actually, as you were saying it, I

realized that it pertains to everybody's

life listening right now because we're

all serving a certain voice,

>> right? And then the other thing that

came to mind is I've just hired someone

called Arada Pema who came from Amazon.

She was leading products there, building

AI products at AWS. She's now leading,

she's our CIT, chief innovation and

technology officer at Steven.com, my

holding company. And one of the things

she told me about Amazon is that they

are just unbelievably obsessed in the

customer. Every decision they make from

a culture perspective is all about the

customer. She even told me that Jeff

Bezos in his meetings and still in the

Amazon meetings today, they put an extra

chair in every meeting that is empty to

represent the customer because they want

the customer to be in every meeting. And

she told me how that anchors all of the

decisions they make from a product

perspective right back to the the person

they're serving. I guess it kills the

donkey thing you told me because they're

not having to choose between serving the

merchants or the customer. They are

serving the customer. Sometimes she told

me at the merchants's expense, but you

have to be okay with that.

>> That's what she said to me. And I

actually really stayed with me cuz now I

always think about like who's the

customer, who's the C. Even when I do

this podcast, you hear me talking about

personas. I'm talking about Dave the

taxi driver and Jay, the mum.

>> Exactly.

>> That's who we're serving here.

>> Yeah. And so I just need to put a small

paper clip here. In the last two years,

Amazon has lost their way about who

they're serving. And Amazon made

billions and billions of dollars last

year selling ads that make Amazon search

worse

>> to people who want to interrupt what

you're looking for to put their thing up

on top. That doesn't serve the customer

that serves a different kind of

shareholder. But yes, the model of what

Jeff built there from the way they hold

their meetings, which is absolutely

fascinating to what they chose to do

about who it was for and who it wasn't

for, were consistent about saying this

is the problem we are here to solve.

This is the purpose of this click. This

is the purpose of this page. There's no

doubt about what it's for. And so the

meeting thing, most people who are

listening to this go to meetings. And

many people who have white collar jobs

say the meetings are the worst part of

their day. What is the meeting for? The

typical meeting, if we're going to be

honest, is to make the boss feel like

you are listening to them and let the

boss take attendance because it could

probably be a memo. And if you're not

sending a memo and you're having a

meeting, let's be clear. Who's this for?

What's it for? What is the purpose of

what we just did here with eight people

just listening the whole time? Well, why

didn't you just send them a video that

they could watch at double speed?

Meetings are a symptom. They're a

symptom of whether the organization is

entangled and stuck with unspoken rules

about what we do around here.

And we can see them everywhere we look.

When in doubt, there are three things

that drive people.

fear,

belonging or affiliation and status and

we don't really understand what they

mean. So first fear I call it the

freedom from fear which is different.

Freedom from fear is I don't want to do

things that are going to make me feel

nervous. I don't want to do things that

I think I'm afraid of. That keeps people

from doing a lot of things. That's

resistance.

Affiliation is you don't wear a tuxedo

to a funeral because or a clown suit. No

one's going to do that, so you're not

going to do that. Fitting in. Who's to

my left? Who's to my right? What's

everybody else doing? And the third one,

which is really misunderstood, is

status. Status is simple. Who eats lunch

first? When we get to the oasis, which

animal gets the water first? Status

isn't money, but it could be related to

money. Status is just who's up and who's

down. These three things keep dancing

with each other about how people choose

what kind of coat. or are they going to

buy Patagonia or are they going to buy a

cheaper knockoff? One of those things

comes with a different kind of

affiliation and status than another one.

But if we can look for this, we can

start to decode

that quiet butt that's been going on in

our head. Name it, right? I want to get

this car. Why? Because it's fast. No,

you don't need to go fast. I want to get

this car because that kid at the high

school lunch table who said I was never

going to amount to something, he could

never afford this car. And every time I

get in this car, I'm going to be able to

tell myself a story that I'm not that

kid from the lunch table anymore. That's

why I want to get this car. Okay, now

we're clear about what problem you're

here to solve.

Go for it.

>> Really?

>> Well, does it help you? Is that what you

want to put your resources into? If that

helps you, then it solved the problem.

>> Do you think it is a worthy goal, a

worthy reason? Well, it's not for me to

decide this that high school leaves all

sorts of tracks all over how we look at

the world. My high school English

teacher wrote in my yearbook, "You are

the bane of my existence and you will

never amount to anything."

And

she was partially inest, but remembering

that as I become a professional writer

is fascinating. I dedicated like my

ninth book to her and then I could let

it go, right? And she and I had a

wonderful lunch a couple years later.

The point is we can't deny that these

things are in our lives. None of us are

living this optimized, fully optimized

life.

The reason you're going and taking those

nutritional supplements, the reason

you're listening to this thing about

some shortcut of bio, whatever has

nothing to do with you doing an actual

analysis of all the best ways for you to

be healthy. They have to do with feeling

agency. They have to do with feeling a

certain kind of affiliation with the

crowd you're in. That's why we have

cycles in medicine. It's not because

medicine goes in and out of actual

science fashion. It's cuz culture

changes what we think is beautiful.

Changes what we think we need to do to

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Keep this to yourself. Terms and

conditions apply. I think I asked this

as well because yes, you can serve my

parents expectations because they're

immigrants and they want me to be

doctor, lawyer, scientist, whatever. Or

I could serve my kids who want me to be

a great dad. Or I could serve my

playground trauma who wants to get the

kid back who said I was never going to

be anything.

>> Exactly.

>> Are any of these voices more worthy than

the other? Is there a particular voice

we should really orientate ourselves

around? And the other thing I've really

now sort of internalized is I'm going to

have to say no to the other voices.

Yeah.

>> I can't transerve them all or else I'll

be the donkey stuck in the middle of the

water and the carrot.

>> I love this. I wish I put this in the

book. This is exactly correct that we're

going to have to forgive some of these

voices. So there are three basic things

that get us hung up. There are time

entanglements which is today is not

yesterday and today is not tomorrow.

Today is right now. There are social

community entanglements. What will this

person think of me? What will that

person think of me? And then there are

the entanglements we have with our

vision of ourselves. when I look in the

mirror, if this works, what will I think

of myself? If this doesn't work, what

will I think of myself? And all three of

them get in the way of announcing a

purpose and then going to solve that

problem because we say to ourselves,

well, I want to work to help the poor,

but I can't get a job at a really fancy

nonprofit. And if I get a job at a less

fancy nonprofit, then what will my

parents think? Oh, all of that's going

on. We have to acknowledge that, right?

We say, "I went to law school for three

years. I didn't like it. I practiced law

for five years. I hated it. Do I want to

spend the next 40 years of my life being

a lawyer? Because I've tried it fully

out." We can't quit because then we

would have to explain to our former

self, why did they pay this big price to

get me this fancy gift and I'm ignoring

it? Sunk costs keep us trapped. And what

we can do is realize that's a gift from

our former self. And like all gifts, you

don't have to accept it. If someone

shows up and offers you a Vietnamese pot

belly pig to take care of, you can say,

"No, thank you. I don't want to accept

your gift." That law degree is a gift.

But you don't have to accept it now. Now

that you know what you know, you can

make a different decision about the

purpose of your work. And if it's not

helping you achieve the purpose of your

work, you can forgive it, say, "Thank

you very much and untie the knot."

I think that point around sunk cost is

an important one to really um double

click on because when I learned about

the idea of sunk cost, it completely

changed me as an investor.

>> It was actually my brother my brother's

been working in like investment banking

for like 15 years now works in my

company. And he explained to me one day

early in my career. He goes, "Stephen,

it was a a stock I had. I was an

investor in a particular stock and the

stock was doing terribly. The company

was doing terribly, but I didn't want to

sell it."

>> Right.

>> Because I had invested at a higher

price.

>> Correct. And then he sent me the

psychology of money book and a few other

papers and said this is what sunk cost

bias is and it'll ruin your life if you

don't realize what it is.

>> Yeah. And it's in everything we do. So

there's the new parking apps let you

find a parking garage near where you're

going and pay in advance.

>> So when I come into the city sometimes

I'll do this. So I've got a $35

ticket to go park at this lot starting

in five minutes. I'm driving in and I

pass a free space on the street. Should

I take it?

So, the advantage of the free space, of

course, is you can leave when you want

to leave and you don't have to engage

and it does it saves you five or 10

minutes. But if I take the free space,

I'm wasting the money I just paid for

that parking garage and it still goes

off in my head that well, yeah,

obviously you take the free space

because the money you paid is already

gone.

>> That's a that ticket is a gift from your

former self. Knowing what you know now,

would you take this job? Knowing what

you would know now, would you take this

parking space? And if the answer is yes,

then you can forgive what got you here

because serving the old you, the old

you's gone.

>> D, I was thinking about relationships as

well.

>> Yeah. Now, if you're the kind of person

that leaves a relationship every 3 weeks

because you're ignoring some cost, then

you're never going to have a

relationship. repeating the process has

costs to you because it develops these

patterns. That's not the kind of sunk

cost I'm talking about. But yes, when

you meet somebody who has decided to end

a relationship,

the healthy thing for them to do is to

say that relationship was then I made

all the right decisions based on who I

was then, based on who they were then.

But we are not those people anymore. So

based on who we are now, do we want to

recommmit to this, will it pay off in

the future? And if the answer is no, it

will not pay off in the future, you've

already answered the question. It

reminds me of Daniel Coleman's work on

loss aversion.

>> Mhm.

>> And I think this is an important thing

to explain because when you realize

what's actually going on in your head

and why people don't like to lose

things, you can spot it when it's

happening to you.

>> Right?

>> I read this study that showed if you

lose £10 in the street, falls out my

pocket. If I then fi find 10 pounds, it

doesn't make up for the 10 pounds I just

lost. I'd have to find 20 pounds to feel

um the pleasure sufficient to the pain

that I experienced from losing the 10.

>> Humans don't like to lose things. And

when I I I remember searching what's

like the evolutionary reason for this

and it it came to say that once upon a

time in our evolutionary past again this

is a hypothesis when we had a meal in

front of us going in pursuit of another

meal that would risk the one we current

have was a terrible decision to make.

>> So actually this whole you know we're

designed to be sufficiently satisfied

with what we have versus the pursuit of

surplus.

>> Yeah.

>> So we want to protect what we currently

have. That was a survival um advantage.

>> No, absolutely. And we don't have to

look in evolution. We look at wild

animals today. Wild animals are wild.

They hate change. Change never helped a

species move forward because it

represents a threat. And what we built

as humans is a culture where change is

happening faster and faster and faster.

By the time we're done with this

conversation, some AI company will have

launched a new frontier model. Boom. And

we can look at this and say, "Where can

I go hide? How can I get back to being a

wild animal that's in in this one place

where nothing changes?" Or we can decide

to get back to the purpose of what are

we trying to do right now. Ignore the

stuff that's not relevant to it. Seek

out the stuff that helps us make the

change we seek to make and get back to

work. So, we need to decide where we're

going to put our attention because our

attention is something we can never get

back.

>> You talked as well about systems, the

systems we're like held in place with.

One of the things that I've seen in your

work is this idea of picking yourself

because I guess we're wired to to

believe that there are still

gatekeepers, but those gatekeepers have

increasingly vanished. I mean, the fact

that I can start this podcast and people

listen, I think is evidence of the fact

that you no longer need gatekeepers. Do

you know a funny story that I've never

told is [laughter]

I um I went for an interview with LBC,

which is a UK radio station before I

took this podcast seriously. I went

there, I did my 2-hour audition, sat

there in the chair, people pretended to

phone in. It was just staff LBC,

>> right?

>> And um I left. I was like quite nervous,

etc. I thought I did a good job, but I

was a little bit nervous, unsure about

what they might say. And I never heard

back. They never gave me feedback. They

never told me if I was good or if I was

bad. So, I started this podcast um on

YouTube in my kitchen [laughter]

because I never heard back from LBC. And

it just goes to show actually you don't

need

>> massive company to give you permission

to start a platform. You can just do

things in this modern world. And this is

kind of dubtales into your idea of

picking yourself.

>> Yeah. So, let's talk about systems first

and then we'll come back to picking

yourself.

>> Okay.

>> People get a little glassy when you talk

about systems. So, let me try to make it

really simple.

When you get in a car here, you drive on

the right side of the road. When you get

back to the UK, you drive on the left

side of the road. Why? Because it's way

more efficient to drive on the same side

of the road as everybody else. We have a

system that says if you're going to

drive in the United States, drive on the

right side of the road. Systems start to

get a little bit more complicated. The

college industrial complex is a system

that starts in first grade that includes

things like the SATs and the stickers

and the football teams and the dorms.

And it's a 400-year-old system that we

got into because it works. It works for

most people most of the time. It's an

easy way to look at a resume, see one

word, and decide if you want to

interview somebody or not. So, the

system that people my age grew up in is

you would do as well as you could in

high school, and a college would pick

you. And then you do as well as you

could in college, and then a company

would pick you. and you would do as well

as you could at the company and then

they would pick you and you get a

promotion and then you would die. And so

we indoctrinated billions of people

around the world. Please wait to get

picked. Here are all the rules and if

you follow all the rules you might get

picked. Turns out it was rigged. Some

people got picked unfairly. But that's

what we got brainwashed. And we still

teach our kids this.

>> And then all of a sudden starting, you

know, in the 90s we said, "Here's a

microphone. Here's a video camera.

Here's a typewriter. Pick yourself.

And now it's extended to here's an AI.

You can start a company by tomorrow. You

could build a complicated website by

Friday.

Wait, I'm waiting for someone to tell me

I should go do that. No one's going to

call. It's $20 a month. You can probably

get it for free at your library. What

are you going to do? And when we put

ourselves on the hook, it's super scary

because does that mean I'm responsible

for every kid on Canoe Lake who needs a

lifeguard and I'm responsible for every

kid who might suffer from river

blindness and I'm responsible for this?

I'm responsible

for nobody. I'm a victim. But we have

the chance to say, I pick myself to

solve this problem. I'm on the hook to

help these people. I'm going to use

whatever tools I can to pick myself to

make a thing better. Turns out that's

generative. If you get a little good at

it, lots of people will ask you to do it

again. When you give away credit and

take responsibility, lots of people will

ask you to do it again.

Sometimes we tell ourselves that we're

waiting to be picked because it's a nice

excuse for resistance.

>> Mhm.

>> We live in a permission seeking state

because it's a good shield.

>> Yeah. to avoid this thing you were

talking about which is the freedom from

fear.

>> Yeah. I mean the entire New York City

book publishing industry is based on the

author gets to say well they picked me

to write the book and then I got to go

promote the book because I promised I

would promote the book. The the book

isn't there because I wanted the book to

be there. They asked me to write this

book. And as soon as you can publish

your own book, as soon as you can start

your own YouTube channel, you don't get

to you don't get to say great news

YouTube call. They want me to start

putting things on YouTube. And that's

why

the number of people you would think

would go ahead and use this tool isn't

as big as it could be because again,

it's one thing to ask a teenager to be

on Tik Tok. They're just entertaining

themselves. They don't see themselves as

a Tik Tocker.

>> To see yourself as somebody I picked

myself. I am saying this and I'm

responsible.

That's hard. No one taught us to do

that.

It's kind of like the LBC thing. I was

waiting for LBC to pick me. And

>> I think once this podcast comes out,

they're going to call you and you got a

big decision to make cuz it's steady,

Stephen. [laughter] They they they'll

give you like health insurance, the

whole thing.

>> I still love LBC, by the way. I still

watch LBC. So, but um I'm probably too

busy now to do LBC. One of the the the

sort of adjacent points here is how do I

know if I'm delusional?

>> Right? I I always think this because a

lot of the advice we give people around

like getting going and starting and

pursuing the thing they want to pursue

doesn't necessarily always come with the

nuance that actually like I can't

actually be an NBA player.

>> Correct.

>> But h how do I know because all the

advice is just go for it, pick yourself,

etc. But

>> yeah, that's not my

>> have the talent.

>> I'm so glad you brought this up. That's

not my advice. You probably are

delusional if you're picking something

that's super fun that involves skipping

lots of intermediate steps and it ends

with a happy ending where you're famous.

The chances of winning that lottery are

very very low. So people come to me and

say, "I got this great book. Will you

help me get a career as a novelist?" And

the answer is super easy. Take your

novel. It was really hard for you to

write. I get that. Make it into a nicely

formatted PDF. Cost you nothing. email

it to 20 people. If they send it to

other people and it spreads, someone's

going to call you and hire you to write

your next novel. If it doesn't spread,

write a better novel.

But don't start running around saying,

"I'm a novelist and I deserve to get

picked and have a big advance." The

heartbreak of someone who is delusional

is they insist that the world owes them

because they worked so hard on X, Y, or

Z or that they have found some secret

transcript that if anyone else

understood it, everyone would real.

Well, if people don't understand it,

that's on you. So, we can get past the

delusion by going for the smallest

viable audience. What's the smallest

group of people that if I made a

difference for them, it would be enough.

What's interesting is I imagine if you

said that to some people, they would

really not like the answer.

>> People hate it when I say this.

>> Why?

>> Because it's so comfortable to be stuck

in that knot.

I'm a genius and I'm really hardworking,

but no one in the world understands me.

So now my butt isn't the problem because

I don't have to worry about any of the

things that come with the responsibility

of it being in front of the wrong people

or whatever. It's so much easier to say,

"If only and I, you know, I need to be

home for this or I I this thing happened

to me. Therefore, I'm stuck." We're safe

at some level in that frustration.

And so, what I'm trying to do with the

knot is help people understand this is

possible, but it is not easy. This is

possible, but it will not give you the

thing you are dreaming of. It will

merely find a path to get to where it is

possible to go.

That's a grownup thing to have to commit

to

>> if someone's not happy with the advice

you just gave. I think it also

illuminates

that maybe their motives are wrong. It

reminded me of when I started this

podcast and I had these two friends,

Oliver and Ash, come to me and say that

was good. When's the next one? And I

always say if they hadn't have said that

to me, it probably wouldn't have

continued because I was busy with other

things. But those two people who I

trusted and would tell me when something

is terrible. I often do. um saying that

to me

just it gave me so much energy and

motivation and I kept publishing in part

for them because I knew Oliver had this

like 3 and a half hour commute to work

every day from Sheffield

>> and um I loved the process. I was

getting this feedback from this

particular person. It carried on going.

But a lot of the time, actually, I think

a lot of people would bounce off this

advice of just send it to 20 people

because they're actually attached to the

podium,

>> right?

>> And what you're saying is no, focus on

the journey,

>> right?

>> But they want in their head somewhere,

actually, no, I the journey, Seth.

I want to be famous and I want the

million pounds, right?

>> And that's not what you're offering

them. But actually, you are. [laughter]

>> Well, someone someone's going to win the

lottery, Stephen, and it's probably not

going to be you.

And and so in your case, we're talking

because you won the podcast lottery.

There are a 100 podcasts as good as this

one out of a million, right? That's

pretty amazing.

>> But there's still a hundred of them.

>> So you show up to buy lottery tickets in

a way that lets you buy more lottery

tickets. You show up to add value for

people so you can keep going. And then

when there's a lottery, you got a shot,

right? But along the way, the journey

says

I have a chance to say here I made this.

I made this means it's for you. It is a

gift I'm giving you. If you don't accept

the gift, I can't blame you. I just have

to make a better gift. But if people

start accepting your gifts, you have

traction. And Steve Blank talks about

customer traction. As an investor, you

know this. Customer traction is the

single best indicator of whether a

startup is going to succeed more than

any other metric. How many customers

would miss you if you shut down

tomorrow?

>> And for a pizza place, 100 is enough.

>> Yeah, they say that a lot in product

development. They say just make a thing

for one person you know and make make it

for one person you know that really

really really loves it and it will turn

out that there'll be lots of people like

that person you know. enough people.

Maybe it's not lots, but it'll be

enough.

>> And so this cycle we're talking about

>> isn't self-focused. It's empathic. You

have to let the audience in to your

thinking or else you're thinking about

what's in this for me and me alone. And

that's narcissistic. And that is where

you see all the internet hustle going

on. All the people who are trying to

pressure folks into sending them $5 or

multi-level marketing, all that stuff.

that isn't what's possible and it's not

what we should be spending our time on.

But when we can be of service for the

right people,

we have a chance to make things better.

But I need to put a big aside here,

which is where resistance kicks back in.

The only way to launch something new is

to create tension. Not to relieve it,

but to create tension. Generous tension.

The tension of you might be left behind.

You won't be in on the first cycle of

it. I have this thing that's going to

help you and you don't know what it is

yet. Tension

that's offered generously is the only

way people create forward motion. So

Taylor Swift is having a concert 15,000

people can fit in the arena. She just

created tension for 40,000 people

because they're saying to their moms and

dads, I got to go get tickets before

everybody else. If she's not willing to

create the tension, she can't go on

tour.

>> So yes, it's awkward to create

attention. It's awkward to say, "I'm

doing this event. I hope there's room

for you." But it's the only way we can

cause other people to decide to move

forward.

>> I was stress testing that Taylor Swift

analogy. And the way that I stress

tested it was, well, what if Taylor did

a gig and there was unlimited seats?

[clears throat]

People would still go, I guess, because

the tension is that she's so good. I

might miss the experience. As you said,

there's FOMO itself is the tension.

There's unlimited seats, but there's not

unlimited nights. It's just tonight.

>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

>> And that's why live events create a

different sort of tension. You know,

this videos on the internet you haven't

seen, I haven't seen. And we're not

stressed about that because they'll be

there tomorrow,

>> right? But the live event starts to

change how we're going to engage with it

among that community.

>> What else is sort of adjacent to this

idea of getting unstuck? Because that's

really what we're circling here. It's

like the things that keep you stuck and

how to take sort of actionable steps

outside of being stuck. Is there

anything else we need to close off on

here?

>> So, you saw some of my juggling balls

there. Juggling is

fascinating because when you see someone

on the street, if you're a good person,

if you see someone on the street

juggling, you're not rooting there for

them to drop a ball, right? That we want

the juggler to be able to juggle. So,

when people say, "I'm going to learn how

to juggle." What happens is they throw

one ball and they can catch it. They

throw the other ball, but within two or

three throws, one of the balls goes over

here. So, they lunge to catch it because

the juggling is about catching. So, they

lunge to catch it, but now they're out

of position and the next one's going to

hit the ground. And then people give up.

People give up because they think

juggling is about catching. It's not.

It's about throwing. If you get good at

throwing, the catches take care of

themselves. So the way I teach juggling

is with one ball, throw it, catch it,

throw it, catch it till you're really

bored. Then two balls, throw, throw,

catch, catch. This is not hard, but if

you do throw, throw, catch, catch for 20

minutes,

every ball is landing exactly where it's

supposed to. And now juggling is easy.

But what we are hooked on, and listen to

any self-improvement podcast, it's all

about the catching, right? Does this

help me lose weight? Does this help me

find friends? Does this help me build my

business? Those are all catches.

Where's the throwing? How are we going

to get good at throwing? How are we

going to get good at realizing even if

no one reads this next short story, I'm

going to get good at putting words on

the page?

>> The process.

>> The process. The practice. If we can

develop a practice, we're no longer

attached to the outcome because the

outcome's out of our control. The

practice is under our control. Get good

at throwing. Get good at seeing where

problems lie, seeing where audiences

are, seeing where you can be generous.

When you get good at seeing those

things,

the catches take care of themselves.

This is something that I've made for

you. I realize that the direio audience

are strivals

that we want to accomplish. And one of

the things I've learned is that when you

aim at the big big big goal, it can feel

incredibly psychologically uncomfortable

because it's kind of like being stood at

the foot of Mount Everest and looking

upwards. The way to accomplish your

goals is by breaking them down into tiny

small steps. And we call this in our

team the 1%. And actually this

philosophy is highly responsible for

much of our success here. So, what we've

done so that you at home can accomplish

any big goal that you have is we've made

these 1% diaries and we released these

last year and they all sold out. So, I

asked my team over and over again to

bring the diaries back, but also to

introduce some new colors and to make

some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now

we have a better range for you. So, if

you have a big goal in mind and you need

a framework and a process and some

motivation, then I highly recommend you

get one of these diaries before they all

sell out once again. And you can get

yours at the diary.com.

And if you want the link, the link is in

the description below. This again is not

a narrative that people will love

because we all want to get good at

catching. Yeah. Weirdly, this is very

very adjacent and almost unlin, but it's

somewhat linked. Um, I sat here with

Julian Treasure. He did two TED talks.

One about speaking, right? 40 million

views. One about listening,

>> two million views. [laughter]

>> I thought it's almost kind of similar to

like the catching and the throwing. It's

>> Yeah.

>> And and actually when I sit here with

spies and I've interviewed some of the

world's leading spies and I say, "How is

it that you're able to get people to do

whatever you want that have just met you

in foreign lands and hand over their

secrets? They say listening."

>> Yeah.

>> It's all about the listening. I go in a

taxi and I listen to them for eight

weeks as they offload because no one

listens. And it kind of got me thinking

about this is like no one focuses on the

throwing.

>> Yeah.

>> And actually that becomes the great

competitive advantage,

>> right? Exactly. Yeah. The practice. I

love the idea world famous spies because

you would think that that's sort of an

oxymoron. I would imagine the world's

greatest spies. We have no idea who they

are.

>> Well, they go on podcasts now, so they

are like [laughter]

um but but part of it links to one of

the books you wrote, which is called The

Dip. We're talking about delusion here

and how to know if you're delusional or

if you're just going through the dip.