So Nan, thanks so much for doing this.

>> Great to be here. Even

>> you invest in emerging markets tech

stocks.

Tell me what is the difference between

the nature of edge there versus in more

developed markets. I think it starts

with having an understanding not just of

the asset class or whatever you you end

up investing in emerging market tech

stocks,

US tech stocks, uh you know retail,

gold, no matter what you end up

investing in, I think that the beginning

is you have to understand yourself.

um you know at the end of the day I

think investing

is

creating a a view of the world uh from

your perspective and expressing that

through a series of

bets uh that you're making out there uh

in the market. So for me when I think

about emerging markets tech

it really starts with myself as a as a

person and as investor and it kind of

aggregates my background you know what

I've done you know what what I went to

school for uh you know what I did after

after school after graduating

um the the different areas I've made

money in and lost money in the past uh

all kind of aggregates to where I think

I get my edge um and where that edge,

you know, an edge is a is sometimes a

tricky word, right? Um you know, think

about where where I have an advantage in

a competitive

largely efficient marketplace

um versus say in US technology stocks

which I've invested in for a long time

as well uh or in other sectors across

other countries. Uh so it really starts

with having a deep understanding of

yourself. Uh a deep understanding of you

know where your background or my

background has

created a different type investor than

than someone else in this marketplace.

>> And so for you specifically, what is

that background and how does that

translate into a different a

differentiated advantage within the

asset classes you're covering and

sectors? I've always wanted to be in

technology uh you know in the in the in

the investment world. Uh when I

graduated from Penn uh I joined a

investment bank called Lehman Brothers

um which you'll read about in the

history books uh uh they don't exist

anymore um but I joined the technology

uh M&A group then um which you know back

in ' 06 was not the most popular group.

Uh, you know, this was a period of time

when, you know, oil was at $100 a

barrel. Uh, natural resource was very,

uh, was very popular. You know, tech had

just come off of a dot bubble bursting.

Uh, you know, and the investment banks

certainly in the tech groups were filled

with guys who used to work at hot

startups in in Silicon Valley. Uh, so it

was a very different time uh for

technology in in terms of, you know, how

popular it was for guys coming out of

college. But I always wanted to do that.

you know, I was one of the guys who, you

know, with some of my colleagues at the

time, you know, lined up for the new

iPhone, uh, when it came out, the the

the first iPhone, uh, when it came out.

So, we've always had a passion, you

know, I've always had a passion for

tech. Um, at the on the other side of,

you know, investing in emerging markets

tech, I've I'm from the emerging

markets. I was born in China. I was I

grew up in the States, but I've always

had this sense of understanding, you

know, where I'm an outsider and where

I'm an insider. uh as someone who's born

in one country and lived in another

country, I think it's incredibly

important to think that way as an

investor internationally,

uh you know, where am I going to be

differentiated? Where where am I going

to find understanding in a market that

is not my home? Uh in a market with

participants that I don't know. Uh it's

something I think about every day. Um

and so I've always been passionate about

technology. I've always been passionate

about uh you know understanding other

cultures uh and that is uh part of what

you know drives me every day uh doing

what I do now uh investing in tech

stocks uh in the emerging markets.

>> So tell me a little bit about that. you

say you're driven to understand tech, to

understand these different cultures. And

so the intersection is emerging markets

tech um for you.

>> And

one of the things that I found very

interesting when we were grabbing coffee

in Hong Kong was you telling me about

not just investing in geographies where

you necessarily have ties to or have uh

I would call a perceived cultural

advantage. um you know, you invest in

Latin America, you invest in some

countries in the Middle East. And I

guess I'm curious, how do you navigate

that aspect of the equation? You know,

the culture aspect. The starting point

for me is all of these companies are

tech companies, all right? And they're

in e-commerce,

they're in fintech, they're in software,

they're doing AI. Uh so the starting

point is there's a commonality that's

shared globally. Um and what I think if

you look back to other sectors that

people have invested in you know retail

or natural resources

uh it tends to be a different

perspective than one gets thinking as a

tech company. Uh and so that's a

starting point. Um, you know, e-commerce

companies, they tend to be similar uh in

multiple different geographies. You

know, consumers tend to want selection,

price, and convenience. Uh, that tends

to be pretty similar. Uh, you know,

fintech tends to be very different. uh

different cultures have different

approaches to credit uh different

approaches to uh to saving and different

cultural attitudes towards uh investing

in in risk assets.

>> Uh you know software is also different

as well. I mean software essentially is

a digital form of of doing business and

if you businesses run differently in

different countries and so that that

tends to be very uh very sometimes very

unique in in different uh cultures. Uh

so that tends to be a starting point is

is starting with the tech technology,

understanding

if a company has a good product or not.

Understanding if they're developing it

in the right way, what does their tech

stack look like? Uh you know, how clean

is their code? Uh and then overlaying

that with the cultural understanding. Um

and not being from a particular culture.

Uh there's pros and cons to that, right?

So the idea of okay well uh you know

investing in China without understanding

Chinese culture, investing in Latin

America without understanding you know

Brazilian or Mexican or the culture of

other countries. I think that the

starting point of doing that is having a

a 360 understanding of your own

awareness and your own biases. Uh I

think that's a starting point. uh you

know assessing what is my view you know

do I have any blind spots when looking

at business in other countries right am

I making assumptions about how

management teams in China communicate

with investors versus how uh Brazilian

management teams communicate investors

or understanding my behavior and my

biases and then having a process for

building conviction in different

cultures Uh and that process is

something that's hard one. Uh the the

process of

building local context of establishing

and m maintaining relationships with

management teams with industry

participants uh with other investors

locally uh with uh you know venture

capital funds in Brazil in Singapore and

other markets who who have a window into

private tech companies. That's a

process. Uh, and that's something that

is an investment of time. Uh, that may

not necessarily feel like you're you're

getting a profit on in the short term.

Uh, that's something I do uh uh

day-to-day. You know, I got my start uh

as an investor in private equity uh in

Asia uh in 2008. uh you know after

Lehman went down I went out to Asia and

worked in private equity trying to buy

companies from founders

uh across multiple countries in Asia at

a period of time when you know nobody

really you know wanted to sell uh but

they needed to or they needed they

needed capital because things were

struggling. So learning how to build

relationships locally who to understand

business fundamentals in different

geographies uh requires a dedicated

process that you've invested time into.

Um and and that's what we do. That's

what I do uh here dayto-day.

>> If you were to boil down what your

process looks like, I guess what does it

look like?

>> The number one thing I think about every

day is looking for significant change. I

think the the markets are reasonably

efficient. There's a lot of smart people

out there. Uh, you know, there's more

and more readily information, readily

available, you know, easy to access

information, uh, with data out there.

And so, uh, looking for areas or

situations of significant change,

there's a lot more uncertainty. There's

a wider spectrum of outcomes. And so the

idea is well if I do more work on this

situation there's a higher like

likelihood that I can come out with a

differential view because the spectrum

outcomes could be wider. Uh if we we

invest in research we invest in in in uh

in in understanding what's going on then

we have a potential edge versus someone

else who hasn't done the work or isn't

focused on opportunity. The second thing

that I'm focused on is finding

opportunities where we have a right to

win. Uh you know I I sit in New York. Uh

I'm investing in these markets all over

the world. Uh I'm looking for companies,

stocks and situations where having a

global perspective in technology uh

allows us to potentially bet against

investors who don't. uh or having a an

understanding what's going on in local

markets uh because that's something I do

as well gives us gives me an ability to

bet against potentially investors who

are coming from too much of a US-

ccentric mindset. So finding that

situations where we could potentially

have a differential view and potentially

have an edge uh that makes it easier for

me to invest the time to do the research

now. So we're looking for situations

where there's significant change and

where there's a right there's a

potential right for someone like me to

win or to differentiate to generate

alpha in that situation. And then the

investment process is actually quite

prescriptive. Uh you know we do the same

thing uh pretty much for every stock

long or short uh that we're involved in.

Uh you know we start by building

systematic context. you know what's

happened in this stock over the last 12

uh 16 or or or even farther right in

terms of quarters uh what's happened

what's driven the stock over time uh who

are the particip who are the people

involved in this company you know one of

the things I mentioned before I try to

build relationships with private uh

private market investors uh in the same

technology sectors in these local

geographies to understand what's coming

over the horizon so building that broad

context text of in each of these markets

about what's happening in technology

gives us this this

mosaic of of ideas uh that that populate

our idea funnel. Uh we do very deep work

uh across uh primary research uh you

know speaking with customers with

suppliers with the uh the the government

regulators where possible uh with

investors on the private and public

side. Uh you know I this this starts

with the the desire to go deep in

research starts from my background in

private equity. uh you know I remember

you know looking at a uh a dairy farm in

uh northeast China back in ' 0809 uh in

the winter uh so imagine you know 20°ree

30°ree temperatures uh and then you know

waking up at 4 in the morning and

putting on a white uh a white kind of

food and safety you know health and

safety smock boots and a and a face mask

and a helmet to go into a uh a 10,000

head cattle farm.

uh you know tech thankfully is a less uh

I think it's it's a little more of a you

know digital uh uh uh sector so I don't

need to do anything that physical uh

anymore but uh I think having a desire

to do that uh is part of the the

research process right getting your

hands dirty you know being a user of

these products uh you know uh you know

during during the um during the pandemic

uh I was uh I was investing in a lot of

the e-commerce stocks globally

Uh I'd made money in uh some of the

e-commerce software companies out there.

Uh and to due diligence on e-commerce,

e-commerce software, digital

advertising, I actually stood up a uh

dropship website uh myself uh to sell.

Well, it was a um it was an aromatherapy

uh website uh that sold that acquired

users and we bought traffic on Facebook,

on Google uh and uh learn about drop

shipping and and uh Shopify and and uh

digital advertising that way. So, uh

doing that kind of work uh is I think

critical uh to to gain conviction these

stocks. And I want to spend a minute on

conviction. I think it's sometimes an

abused term especially among kind of the

you know long short equity you know

hedge fund world. Um you know people

love to say that you know they've got

conviction they don't care when the

stocks go against them. Um I think it's

it's a word that it's like a loaded gun.

uh you know you want to be very careful

the word conviction because I think that

conviction sometimes also can mean bias

right you've you've done work in a in a

name uh it goes against you because

you've got conviction which really is a

bias toward your own sense of accuracy

or your your own research process right

you end up losing money because you've

sized a position inappropriately but so

going back to to where I get conviction

from you know I think that uh having

invested in this asset class through

bull markets and bare markets, right?

Through, you know, being on the ground

investing in the emerging markets in '

08 and 09 uh during the, you know,

during the the the

emerging markets credit crunch during

various local bare markets uh through

the COVID

uh uh the COVID cycle um and the

postcoavid uh uh cycle in technology. I

think it g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g

g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g

g g g g gave me a early comfort level

with having my portfolio be in markets

that are not my own, right? I think a

lot of US-based investors, you know,

struggle to own companies outside the

US, uh certainly as a significant

portion of the portfolio when things

don't work out, those tend to be the

first positions to get cut,

>> right? um and and for for for I think

understandable reasons. And I think what

I've done today is in my in my fund is

to focus on an area where I can hold

conviction uh in a balanced way and try

not to

try to spend more time as much time as

possible investing where I think I can

make money uh based on my experience my

set of strengths and weaknesses and

biases uh and marry that with the

investment process that that we just

discussed.

You mentioned conviction. Yeah.

>> Right. And you

um you build conviction in names in the

emerging markets. Um

you know the way names move in in in the

emerging markets they're they're

extremely volatile especially I mean I

can imagine you're holding an an

e-commerce platform and um like I don't

know regulations change completely with

with one aspect of it. um that can be I

mean that poses definitely a lot of

risk. How do you size your positions so

that those call them I don't know tail

risks don't I mean don't stop you from

being in business that's a critical

question right and over the last even

the last five years you've seen

regulation in various markets create a

lot of volatility and even very large

market cap companies uh in really not

not just in the emerging markets but you

know even in even in the US Um, so I

think sizing

it's it's part of a portfolio

construction process, right? There's

there's other elements. Sizing is one of

them. And it goes back to

having an investment product, an

investment strategy that

you can that you're best suited to to

undertake. And so being having a comfort

level investing in different countries

uh holding conviction in stocks in Latin

America, in China, in uh uh Central Asia

and other markets, it enables me to

build a to construct a portfolio that

has multiple geographies, right? And so

that's one thing that's that's an

important starting point for certainly

for what I do. you know there's less

correlation across the various emerging

markets from a in the public markets

than there is within the S&P 500 right

so uh uh

having investments in different

geographies is a good starting point

because it reduces the correlation

across the portfolio more so than a

USonly fund uh which which I think some

people maybe may be surprised by

it requires a comfort level to have

those investments right to have a

Brazilian fintech a Chinese e-commerce

company uh Southeast Asia uh digital

platform you know indust investments in

Turkey and Africa and Kazakhstan and

other markets. So the the product itself

is a multi-country product having that

is a good starting point for writing out

regulation macro politics in any given

country. Uh so at any given time I've

got you know a quarter or less of my

portfolio in a single geography. Uh and

that slice of the portfolio will have

long and short components to it. Uh and

so my my net exposure to the

directionality of a single country is is

quite limited uh by by design for the

product. Um, and it's there's no one way

to make an emerging markets fund uh or a

technology fund, but this is the way

that I've chosen to uh because I believe

that this type of portfolio construction

can maximize

this the effect of stock picking uh on

the return and and minimize the the

impact of big macro bets of regulatory

risks and other emerging market risks on

on the return stream of the portfolio.

Uh so that's that portfolio construction

stems straight from what is this product

within that you you talked about sizing.

So I think sizing is is again another

part of the portfolio construction

puzzle. Um I tend to start with uh what

what kind of stock is it right? Is it a

growth stock? Is it a momentum name? Uh

is it a uh special situation? Right? I

start with kind of what is this? Right?

Is it a high quality company that's

getting better? Is it a lower quality

company going through a turnaround? Uh,

you know, when I think about uh my

target prices, you I've got multiple

scenarios uh kind of an expected value

outcome for each stock. Uh but then

there's also a qualitative overlay,

which is, you know, there might be 25%

upside to the stock, but is it a high

probability? Is it a high quality 25% or

is a higher risk 25%. Um, so that that's

kind of the some of the inputs that go

into the sizing process. Other inputs

could be uh what is your loss budget,

right? If you think this stock could go

down 50% on bad news, is this something

you want to lose, you know, 5% of your

portfolio on in a single stock, but if

the answer is no, then there shouldn't

be a 10% position. And so that that's

another part of what goes into it. My

portfolio is uh style agnostic meaning

uh despite it being a technology

portfolio, it's not just a kind of

growth stock portfolio on the long side

and maybe a you know value stock

portfolio on the short side. I've got uh

I have I value GARP growth midcap uh uh

small cap large cap investments across

both the long and short portfolio in the

different markets that we invest in. Uh

which again you know come going back to

the portfolio construction it helps

remove another aspect from the risk

profile of the investments which is

factor risk. It doesn't fully remove it,

but the the again the goal is to

maximize the impact of my stock picking

and what these companies are doing

better than people think or worse than

people think and remove the impact of

oh, it just so happens that I've got

more growth stocks now at a time when

growth stocks are doing well, growth

stocks are doing poorly, uh or again big

macro bets on individual countries. Um

but I think you know sizing is

one area where a fund like like mine can

outperform can can hit above its weight

versus you know the what you typically

see in emerging markets you know highly

diversified global emerging markets

funds right that have you know very

small positions that are index huggers.

That's not what we do right. looking

for, you know, ideas that are

springloaded on both sides. And they're

not an infinite number of those ideas,

right? I have a portfolio of 20 longs

and 30 shorts out of an universe of call

it 400 companies and and growing. And so

it's not a, you know, index hugging fund

and it's not a, you know, five name best

idea fund. We're we're kind of somewhere

in the middle.

>> What's your benchmark?

>> I look at multiple. I think the fairest

benchmark is MS MCI world uh which

encompasses not just the emerging market

companies that that I deal in uh but it

encompasses the developed markets which

I think are important things to compare

to. Uh you know I don't love benchmarks

in general because I think our goal

should be to make as much money as

possible uh versus just saying we're

outperforming a benchmark. you know, I

do think about uh our strategy as an

absolute return strategy. Uh but you

know, stepping back in terms of, you

know, thinking about these companies,

you know, I wouldn't invest in these

companies unless I thought they were

better investment opportunities than

comparable companies in the US. Uh and

and the the great thing about 2026

is

there are a lot of companies in

technology in the emerging markets that

are growing faster than you develop

market peers that are run in a more

efficient in a more shareholder friendly

way and that are trading at

significantly cheaper multiples. So on

the long side there's actually

interesting kind of comparisons to be

made versus the big companies in the US.

uh you know over the last three years

you know we we actually outperformed the

MSCI world uh despite having a net

exposure of just around 30 to 40%. So

I'm hoping it continues. I think 2026 is

uh is is going to be a good setup for

identifying these types of opportunities

you know primarily you know outside the

the developed markets. So, so Nan,

you've talked a little bit about your

process. We've talked a little bit about

edge. I want to kind of merge those two

pieces of our previous of of the way our

conversation's gone so far. Out of all

aspects of your process, what has been

the biggest source of edge that you can

confidently say, um, yeah, I guess this

is the biggest source of our comparative

advantage.

>> That's a great question. uh you know if

if I could bottle that and and make it

into an algorithm you know you wouldn't

you wouldn't need me. Uh uh so but so I

think I think so I think you know jokes

aside I the answer to that question is

in

the relationships

that I've built uh with the the the

companies both public and private with

the uh the the the you know the venture

capitalists in these different markets

with other investors uh with you know

the the the the you know the woman

running e-commerce for a major US brand

in China that I've talked to every

quarter for the last, you know, 10 years

to understand what's going on in in

Chinese e-commerce, you know, to the uh

the the the CEO of the startup Fintech

in Mexico, uh you know, who who

comes to me for advice about

understanding the the IPO market in in

the US and how how public markets

investors think about LATAM. Those types

of relationships I I think have given me

a great deal of a head start in

understanding and building a a

comfort level with these sectors in

these countries. Um, you know, back in

2022,

uh, I started looking at some of the new

public companies in Brazilian, uh,

digital banking that had come they they

gone public during the, um, during the

COVID bubble. Um, and you know, speaking

to some of the private investors and

private companies in in Brazil in

fintech, you know, the the picture I got

was that

the the the the party was over, so to

speak. there was very few there was

going to be less private capital VC

capital devoted to those sectors uh

after the COVID bubble than than before

and then than than during. Um and as a

result the the companies that gone

public right that made it that that

raised public equity and had currency

and were listed in the US had an

advantage in the fact that they had less

competition for customers. uh they their

cost of capital was going down, their

cost of customer acquisition is going

down. Uh which meant that they these

companies largely most of whom back in

22 were losing money uh while growing

quickly but losing money uh they would

the the thesis was that they would pivot

from losing money to to becoming

profitable uh in a shorter amount of

time than um than their than people

thought. Uh and part of that was you

know my understanding of what was going

on in the private side. And so I think

especially technology right building

these relationships um especially in

emerging markets having these

relationships enables you to has enabled

me to underwrite inflection points

periods of significant change uh I would

say potentially better than some local

investors or or US-based technology

investors. So I think that's been a big

source of edge um is taking the time to

advise these companies on how best to

interface with US investors to advise

them on how to manage sellside

relationships uh you know to provide you

know introduce them to other investors

uh in the US who who may invest in their

stock uh or invest in their startup uh

just building these bridges uh uh you

know between the emerging markets and

the us you know between Silicon Valley

uh and uh and and you know industries

these these startup industries these

technology industries in various uh

various economies it takes time but I

believe that what we're doing here is

building a mode around our alpha that's

powered by some of these relationships I

think the second area where we've gotten

where I'm building this edge or I have a

I feel like I have a a ability to have a

sustained differential

approach um is in having made and lost

money in these different markets. U

there's a distinctly human approach, you

know, human element to investing. I'd

say in the merging markets,

dare I say there's even more of a human

element uh beyond the relationship part,

but also this idea of a human portfolio

manager really having to have a comfort

with the volatility of these markets.

And so building that scar tissue early,

uh, you know, recovering from loss in

these different markets and and having a

a a pattern recognition of, oh, you

know, I can make money in in Brazil.

It's possible to make money in Brazil.

Oh, it's possible to make money in in

Chinese internet. You know, I was an

investor in Chinese internet stocks, you

know, before the Alibaba IPO. Uh, I've

lost money in those stocks as well at

various points in my career. And so

having that cover level with winning and

losing in these markets, I think it's,

you know, it's like uh you know, if the

the first time that you uh uh travel,

you might, you know, go on a uh you

know, Disney cruise uh to the Caribbean

and you're in that safe Disney cruise

environment. Um, but you know, by the

20th or 30th time that you're traveling

abroad, you might be, you know, riding

in a tuktuk in a Southeast Asian

country, you know, going to a place

that's not list that's not on Trip

Advisor, right? And so that's kind of

the we I've built that comfort level in

my life. Uh, and I'm expressing that uh

those that that advantage uh through

through my portfolio.

out of the two things you mentioned

there. The first I find very interesting

because it's

I mean obviously it's something that is

spoken about, you know, you're a hedge

fund manager, you need to get access to

um the people who are who work at the

the names you cover. Um but those

relationships, right, that is a

long-term edge and it's and it's

something that's very sustainable. Now I

remember

that when we were having when we were

having coffee in Hong Kong, we talked a

little bit about the evolution of edge.

>> Um talked a little bit about alternative

data and how that used to be an

extremely um you know when no one was

adopting that that was

>> that was something that was that was you

know you there's a lot of alpha there.

Now I guess I want to hear your thoughts

on not your distinct source of edge

going forward but I guess broadly where

you see

the highest quality sources of edges

going forward in the markets you know

alternative data late 2010s even early

2020s but that's largely been

commoditized.

>> What do you see as the next frontier?

>> It's a great question. Uh obviously

everyone talks about AI and as a tech

investor AI is first and foremost in my

mind.

However, I would say that AI like

alternative data is

just another tool for the fundamental

investor uh for the longer term

fundamental investor. It's just another

tool. Uh you know you mentioned

alternative data. You know I I'd been a

very early user in alternative data. uh

uh back in, you know, kind of the the

early 2000s uh early 2010s investing in

in tech stocks and e-commerce uh you

know, partly informed by alternative

data and partly informed by you know

other other forms of primary research.

Um but yes, the the if you're first to

that source, if you're first to that

kind of tool, there is

there is it is helpful, right? it is

helpful and you do you do become

differentiated um and and that that can

last for a bit of time uh but if it's

something that you've built that that's

you know based on obviously based on

public information it will diminish over

time um so I think from from my

perspective now having done this

certainly and in public markets you know

for uh you know for 15 years I would say

that what's truly durable I think

there's a couple things that really are

truly durable. So when you talk about

the cutting edge, when I think about

tools, I think those are ephemeral,

right? You will they will be it's an

arms race, right? You know, 30 years

ago, uh you know, people were just

reading 10Ks, right? If you go further

back, you know, you had to find a ways

you had to go to a library to to to down

to borrow the the the the the 10Ks. And

if you did that, you had an edge, right?

if you were reading, you were going to

the library and you were borrowing the

10K and reading it, you had an edge. Uh

uh and and which is remarkable to think

that was ever the case, but it was the

case. So I think the tools will always

evolve and it's certainly on us to keep

up with what will become more and more

table stakes with with every evolution.

Um, so we I use a lot of AI uh today,

but I think what is actually

harder to build and and but what's is is

more durable is behavior

and is and it's not just my behavior. I

would say it's behavior of everyone in

the in the that you're you're dealing

with um on the fundamental side. So in

terms of my behavior, I would say

having a intimate awareness of my own

strengths and weaknesses, my biases,

uh my psychological scar tissue. Uh I

think that gives me a durable advantage

in managing a portfolio and being an

investor. uh you know I so give me

example right I think I have a uh I have

a potentially over

uh over I have I I have a bias toward

uh

I have a bias toward complexity uh you

know I love some of the part stories I

like uh situations where there seems to

be a lot of complexity

I need to be aware of that because I

think statistically that does not has

has no bearing on whether or not the

stock works or not. Right? You know,

having that aware awareness that I'm

attracted to a certain type of

investment situation allows me to

reflect, you know, am I potentially, you

know, getting too excited about a stock?

Am I oversized in this position? Uh, and

allows me to be a little more

dispassionate by understanding where the

passion is is and where it's coming

from. So I think that is an example of

kind of having self-awareness

uh and understanding my own personality

and my own behavior. Um, another kind of

bias that I that I and I see people

struggling with in certainly emerging

markets technology is when there's when

you're interfacing with a management

team that is that speaks really good

English that's really good presenter and

they make people feel really comfortable

that oh you know these are they get it

they get it you know they speak great

English so they must be good managers.

Um, and it's a it's such a it's such a

common bias in emerging markets

investing. Um and and and part of it has

to do with just natural kind of US

investor US investor kind of

ethnosentricity. Part of that has to do

with the politics of you know hey you

know I like this idea but my boss needs

to like the idea and then if these guys

don't speak English well then it's a

little odd awkward to introduce them. Um

and you know again in my investment

career I think actually statistically

the guys that spoke the best English

actually the stocks did the worst. Uh

and so it's a these these kind of

behavioral awarenesses, right, that that

need to be that need to be um made

aware. I think that's something that

everyone can do work on their own,

right? Even if you're not investor, I

think you should understand who you are

as a person. That makes you have a much

more satisfying life than trying to be

someone you're not uh or to to you know

to do a work to do do a job you're not

suited to or to be with a partner that

you're that you know that that you you

know that you shouldn't be with. Um so I

I think that that's a a source of

durable uh uh advantage is is that

understanding of your own behavior and

then understanding other people's

behavior is also critical. Uh, you know,

I I like to I like to, you know, tell my

tell my wife like, you know, what do I

do all day? You know, on the investment

side, you know, I'm talking to

management teams, some of whom are are

are trying to lie to me, right? Some of

whom are trying to pitch themselves as a

better management team than than than

they are. And um that will never go

away, right? The the the the human need

for approval, the human need to uh

convince others that they're doing

better, that that will always be there.

And so that communication inefficiency

that information uh that that that

information asymmetry between the people

who run these companies and the people

investing these companies will always

persist. Um and so that's always again

understanding that is part of the is is

part of I I believe part of being a good

investor that will persist beyond the

world of AI. Now AI can help uh you know

I've used AI to process uh kind of over

time you know what management teams has

said about certain issues and I've used

AI that AI surfaced to me hey you know

this management team seems to be lying

about this particular issue uh and you

know maybe as a human I would have

glossed over that for many many reasons

right lack of time lack of focus or the

fact that you know some of these

behavioral tells uh can be comp complex,

right? I mean, I've I know you have

you've had guests on who've, you know,

been successful in the world of poker.

It'll be very interesting to see, you

know, will there really be an AI poker

champion or is this something that will

always have a human element? Um I'm

probably more in the the latter camp. Uh

we'll see. But I think that you know

understanding your own behavior,

understanding other people's behavior,

as long as the world's filled with human

beings, I think it will be a a a

sustained source of uh advantage uh even

when you know the next AI comes out.

>> What you said there about using your own

behavior as an indicator and putting

that into the investment process.

I think that's gold. And it actually

reminds me of a hedge fund manager that

I know who whenever he was at the bottom

and really feeling like he should exit

his positions cuz he sides quite big. Um

I remember him telling me saying that in

these situations

it's always very very near the bottom.

And if he looked at the periods

historically when that had happened, it

had always been like he'd always like in

these moments sometimes he'd sell at the

bottom. But using that as an indicator

allowed his I mean his performance to to

become a whole lot better. I want to

talk a little bit about applying these

principles um of edge um in in investing

understanding behavior

um to life cuz one of the things I talk

about a lot with friends um and I think

actually we were speaking about this um

over coffee I'm bringing it up again but

we spoke about a lot of interesting

things and I just want to kind of pull

from that conversation is the concept of

edge for making personal decisions. So,

I'll give the example of career

decisions. I find that, you know, I'm at

Colia right now and everyone is chasing

brand names. You we're all chasing the

thing that was hot last quarter, last

year. And so right now that's call it

high frequency trading firms um

multi-manager hedge funds and then some

semblance still still investment banking

but um but that is no longer as

prestigious as the HFTs and as the

multi-manager hedge funds and I remember

us talking and you saying that the

expected value or the decision to

participate in that game already has a

whole lot edge in it because ju simply

because of the fact that the information

is commoditized, right? Everyone already

knows that that's a path that makes

sense and that truly trying to think

independently

um think orthogonally

to

conventional wisdom is where you find

outsized returns for one's own career.

Um

how does one do that? You know, it seems

like, you know, if I'm just assessing my

options right now, right, or if they

just put me in a generic undergraduate

or graduate students shoes, you know,

the obvious path just seems to be try to

recruit as hard as you can for the HFTs

or multi-managers because the other

options by definition are not in my

mind. You know, I haven't heard of them.

>> I mean, there's a couple of uh uh

concepts that you've brought up. uh you

know one is this idea of you know in

availability the availability bias right

these options are there they're

available to you uh to these to these

students and so they're seen as more

viable or more attractive than options

that are not available to you right

which is a huge bias uh uh you know the

uh so

you know obviously the way to solve that

is you go out and cast a wide net right

uh that's something that's it's more of

an information question, right? Um, and

and a time allocation, a process

question. Uh, I mean, I remember, you

know, I think it was freshman year of

college, I was desperate for internship.

I must have applied to, you know, 120

different summer internships. Um, uh,

you know, in various parts of the world.

Uh uh but um you know thank thank the uh

the the the University of Pennsylvania,

you know, online uh uh internship

application site or whatever it was

called, but they were they're very uh

very useful. Um I think that's a

separate thing, right? I think that's

that that's solvable. Uh you know, sure

these are the big companies that come to

campus, right? People seem to be getting

paid well to go there. that's they're

they're there, they're available, they

seem attractive, but so you know that

that seems like a solvable issue. I

think the bigger question is this idea

of career edge, not so much as you know

what are the what is there a company

that's more suited for me that can give

me more edge. I think again coming back

to the individual, right? What do you

really want to do? How do you really

want to spend your day? And what do you

really want to learn? I think that the

the number one mistake people do uh

people make at this stage is

going somewhere for what seems to be

like a rational economic outcome, right?

Making that rational economic decision

upfront in, you know, year one of of

graduating college. Um I think that the

the the the reason why people do that is

because these are intelligent people

right who are making a rational

uh what seems to be a very reasonable

and attractive economic choice. Um but

the problem with that is then you know

you know you're five 10 years down the

line you know you're surrounded by

people who've made that same choice but

within you there's people who made that

choice made the same choice you did but

for a different and potentially better

reason and that's when you find you know

when you're 5 years 10 years down the

line that you're not as competitive

because as it turns out you're not as

passionate about you know generating

alpha on a large cap you US stock

portfolio. You're not as passionate

about uh and I'm not the expert on high

frequency trading, but you're not the

expert on, you know, squeezing, you

know, one millionth of a millisecond out

of a trade, right? It's and so that

that's going back to my my earlier point

as an investor, understanding who you

are and what gets you out of bed, right?

The reason why I focus on emerging

market technology stocks is I love

technology and I love understanding

different cultures, right? And and and

being in the emerging markets. And so

it's a perfect uh synthesis of kind of

who I am. uh you know I'm a immigrant

from China who has family all over the

world who you know who travels to to lat

Latin America Europe and who also stood

in line for the first iPhone uh uh uh

you know back in the day because uh and

and you know was a technology investment

banker at a time when that was not the

cool thing to do. uh I think comes down

back down to that right is what are

people what what are these students

really interested and passionate in and

making a decision based on that rather

than economic pure expected value

outcomes. I think that

is more alpha down the line because by

the way the the fidelity in calculating

those expected values is probably quite

low right the you know 200 and5 right

calculating the expected value for

taking a job offer from Lehman Brothers

it was it was quite high right uh but

the the outcomes were different right so

I I think

>> and this maybe is a broader investing

question I think people place too much

faith in their own ability to calculate

expected values to assign the correct

probabilities to uncertain outcomes.

It's something that if you read any of

the, you know, statistical, you know,

behavioral uh theory books, um you'll

you'll find. So, I think from a career

perspective, you know, finding alpha, it

comes down to, you know, understanding

who you are, uh and making decisions

based on that. So, how how do you make a

decision based on that? Uh it's

understanding, you know, what are the

things that you will stay up all night

to to do, right? Uh uh you know, the

things that to you seem easier to other

people seem harder. Uh the things that

maybe to you seem harder, but they're

the good kind of hard, right? That the

kind that you want to keep grinding at

even though it's challenging. Um not

because there's a payoff, but because

there's pleasure in the process of doing

that. Uh I think that there's a lot of

that you know is where there's going to

be career alpha not in you know making a

rational expected value decision.

Uh and and look that that could be

multi-managers, that could be the high

frequency trading firms, right? You

could you could be very, you know,

self-actualized any of these places. Uh

but, you know, there's there's no

straight line to to succeeding, right?

You know what if if I ever succeed, I'll

tell you how how I got there. Uh, but I

think if you look at some of the the the

people out there, you know, that are

certainly deserving of that title, you

know, the the Jaime Diamonds of the

world, you know, the the Warren

Buffetts, you know, most of them didn't

get on a, you know, they were never on a

linear trajectory. Uh, one, and and two,

I think they made decisions that didn't

seem were the high expected value

outcomes of their day. uh for instance

Jamie Diamond going out Chicago to work

at Bank Juan uh uh uh instead of you

know going up the ranks uh uh you know

where where he was. I think that's

that's all kind of you know the kind of

concepts are rattling my my brain.

>> What portion of career outcomes do you

think are beta versus versus alpha if

you were to do an attribution?

>> It's a great question. I've never heard

it asked like that. Uh, but I think

that's a I think that's a great

question. I think your goal should be to

I think the goal would be to have both,

right? Uh, and and maybe I just want to

make sure we get our definitions

correct. So, I'm going to go down this

path and if you feel like I'm not

defining them correctly, let me know. I

think that the what I said earlier about

finding what you know, finding out about

yourself, right? understanding what your

own strengths and weaknesses are,

understanding what your own passions

are, that feeds into alpha, right? That

feeds into no matter if you're if you

went to Google or JP Morgan or uh uh you

know, whatever startup

I think that's where the alpha comes in,

right? is is you know am I

going to be more passionate

uh more excited and motivated than the

other people right I think that's alpha

uh I think beta is very important uh you

know beta is very important I think

picking the right sectors could have a a

big outcome

uh if you're kind of low alpha right I

think if you're high alpha it doesn't

matter where you are right now I know

some very successful people that are in

dying industries. I know some very

unsuccessful people who seem to have

picked all the hot places to be uh but

they're not very happy and they're not

they're not doing as well as they

thought they would. Right? So I think I

think alpha I think data is important

but I think you are going to be happier

if you focus on alpha. Uh and I I think

you know certainly the beta part today

would be hey you know you should do

something with AI right that's probably

what seems like beta today but again

beta is a backwards looking statistic

right what it what seems like high beta

today right might actually be negative

beta or low beta uh so again going back

to alpha alpha is something that is

durable if you invest in it if you if

you

conduct if you uh uh you know if you're

true to yourself you can generate more

alpha and certainly that's why I think

about when I you know invest in stocks

day-to-day um but the way you've you

know you've you've you've phrased a

question thinking about it as a career

uh question I think is just as uh just

as important

>> I agree but I also would like to push

back a bit and say and and say that um

given that beta is such huge portion of

the equation. Shouldn't we reflect

really deeply about the now obviously

it's a it's a backward-looking thing but

about the expected

um value or expected

return right given a sector that we

choose um because I'll give the case of

AI if you are extremely smart right um

you're extremely driven and you're

interested so I'm throwing in a little

bit of alpha in there right then by

picking

call it AI as the most liquid market,

right? I mean, and I would call it as

analogous to the most liquid market and

performing there, you can have truly

truly outsized outcomes, right? Outsized

returns as in you can really really rise

to the top. And so would you frame I

guess my question for you is if you

believe yourself to be in that 0.001%

0001%

of performers and have insane alpha in

terms of skill set. Should you just pick

the most liquid market and and win there

because the returns are are the highest?

>> I mean those insane outcomes, right?

Having those big outcomes, that's

another way of saying uh current market

multiples are elevated,

>> right?

>> You're saying, "Oh, let's let's sell our

talent where the m multiples are the

highest.

Right? And I think that by implication,

what happens is

it's harder to actually get those

multiples, right? Or your slice of those

multiples would be smaller. Uh so let's

me that that's me pushing back on your

construct, right?

>> This idea of, you know, finding the

most, you're basically saying, okay,

this is the most liquid market.

>> I'm saying it's the most expensive

market.

>> And those are two different concepts,

right? M

>> so I get the liquidity which means oh

there are a lot of seats

>> in this

>> market. The question is how many of the

seats are going to be in behind winners

and behind how many of those winners are

they going to properly value these seats

or value these seats more than you

deserve.

M

>> so I guess it's a stock picking question

that I've introduced right you you've

talked about alpha and beta I've so

personal alpha and this kind of you know

sector beta I'm introducing this stock

picking equation into into the middle

which conveniently I think is maybe how

I think about things right it's like

well you know I don't want to make a

huge bet on the Brazilian economic cycle

right just like you know as a career

person you might not want to just bet on

AI

>> but if you find the find the right team

>> if you find the right seat where you can

learn where people are they view you as

a as a as a future partner not as a

resource, right? Where the the

you're surrounded by people who not just

are smart people because there are smart

people everywhere, right? There are

smart people who work at who who run

restaurants, right? But who

are teaching you the skills that you

hope to learn, right? uh that is where

the stock picking I think comes comes

through right when in terms of the in

terms of career uh so finding the AI

company

where you know they just raised a very

you know very high valuation series E uh

and it's prestigious and you know the

onampus recruiting office you know is is

is you super excited that you got an

offer there and I you know that's

certainly I mean that might be the right

outcome right but who are you working

with right what are you building what

are you learning you know who you know

what kind of experience do people have

in these organizations right as a

younger uh younger uh uh uh contributor

those are I think important questions to

ask right beyond the initial rush of

excitement that you got into these

companies, right? I think there's this

high achiever attitude that you know

this is a end the end is you got the

offer you're in the company right I

think the reality is that's just the

beginning right and the journey is much

much longer uh so it's you know you

might be happy that you got into these

selective organizations right and by the

way there's a lot of false selectivity

that they've created to make it feel

harder than it is I that's one thing

great but then once you get in is it

really the right place to be right are

you really doing the Hey, are you really

learning the way that you ought to be

learning? That's all something to

consider as well.

>> So, throughout this conversation, we

talked about edge in emerging markets.

We talked about um

uh you know, edge in general, career

edge,

>> um the nuances of emerging markets going

back. Um, and

I want to end this conversation

um

to with with a question just about you

and your firm.

If there's

one thing that you think makes you

different from other firms, from other

products, from other processes, what is

it?

>> Me.

I I believe I'm my background,

experience, my passions, my biases all

combined to enable us to have a product

that could not exist elsewhere

because we are focused on technology

across multiple geographies. We're

holding conviction in the sectors

and stocks that I think are tough for

other people to hold. uh certainly in

one portfolio uh there are a lot of

great global US- ccentric technology

funds out there uh they're they're not

going to be able to hold the kind of

stocks we hold there a lot of great

emerging markets funds out there uh that

have less tech uh and are typically

focused on you know a single geography

uh because that's what they're

comfortable uh investing in. I think the

reason why we've beaten this MSEI world

over four years is because we've been

able to kind of skim the cream of the

stock opportunities in technology across

multiple geographies while avoiding

too much single country risk in a single

country. And I think that's enabled

because that's been enabled because this

product is the sum it's kind of the

expression of sum total of my

individuality. And that's kind of the

tying back to the last thing we talked

about. I think it's important to think

about that when building a career,

right? Who who are you and what what do

you want to become? Uh that's different

than potentially where other people

could be can become. Uh and so I think

that's the the the the single edge that

we have as a firm is is uh it's kind of

a circular question. You know, my my my

answer my answer to to you is is

circular. Uh, you know, the reason why

we're differentiated is because we're

we're who we are. [laughter]

>> I love that. Thanks so much for coming

on Odds Unopen. All the best.

>> Thank you. And uh, you know, have a

great uh, great year. I think it's going

to be a good one.