Welcome to Meet the Leader, the podcast

where top leaders share how they're

tackling the world's toughest

challenges. In today's episode, the

third in my AI and job series, we talk

entrylevel workers, what's changing for

the future of the workforce, and what

the leaders need to get in place. Now,

subscribe to Meet the Leader on Apple,

Spotify, and wherever you get your

favorite podcasts. Don't forget to rate

and review us. I'm Linda Lasina from the

World Economic Forum and this is Meet

the Leader.

>> How do you create that experience for

entry- level workers to create those

skills which traditionally have been

developed through if you like the

apprenticeship of you know doing the

work and sitting in a room and watching

and listening. How do you recreate those

experience and focus on the learning

required such that in five seven 10

years time we've got leaders coming

through the pipeline to take on the

mantle within the organizations around

the world. Each new generation inherits

their own tricky new job market. But the

latest crop of entry-level workers faces

a special challenge as AI automates the

rope tasks that these [music] workers

classically took on. What does the first

job even look like? No shortage of

experts have rung their hands over some

key existential questions like will

these roles just be destroyed? Or if

they aren't, how will they transform?

But critically, how can First Jobs still

serve their unassuming, overlooked, but

all important role as apprenticeships,

as training grounds for sectors

schooling workers on the critical

thinking, collaboration, and

relationship skills needed in any

sector. We have some thoughts in this

latest episode in my AI and jobs series.

We'll dig into a special report released

just last [music] month from the World

Economic Forum on AI and entry-level

jobs. We'll speak to the co-author who

shares some of the findings that both

surprised him and have him optimistic

for [music] what's ahead. He also

explains why some of the most dire

headlines we've been hearing about

what's ahead for new workers aren't

really taking shape. Should stay till

the end where we talk to a select group

of HR execs and leaders from our chief

people [music] officer community on the

advice that they wouldn't give new

workers any other year. They also share

the advice they give their own children

to navigate this uncertain job market.

It's advice that can help and inspire

anyone. We'll start with Peter Brown. He

is the global workforce leader at PWC

and he talked to my colleague Katarina

Gordichuk at Summer Davos, the annual

meeting of the new champions in Dian

China this June about our special report

AI and entry-level skills. They'll get

us started with why entry-level roles

have been such a hot topic of

conversation. Given the impact AI is

having on the world of work, I think it

puts a magnifying glass particularly on

entry level because if you think of how

jobs are broken down, you know, it's

right in the if you like in the

forefront of where AI is, you know,

really I think forcing those

organizations are getting head to

redesign work. So look, I'm I'm the

father of a 20-year-old. So the whole

topic around, you know, what do I do

coming out of college, you know, AI is

is is changing the the world of work.

There's there's other factors I think

influencing the world of work. You know,

beyond the disruptive technology, we've

got geopolitical tensions, you rising

pressures on, you know, on the economy.

We've got supply chain tensions. We've

got the demographic challenges. We do

lots of research around, you know,

what's on the mind of workers. And one's

called hopes and fears. It's the largest

survey of workers around the world. Um,

some 55,000 workers. when we put a lens

on that younger workers in particular,

they're more um optimistic around AI

than they are anxious. But that said,

you know, I'm a realist. We're all human

beings. You know, actually, we know also

workers around the world are feeling the

cost of living crisis, right? So, if

you're a young person coming into the

world of work, I can understand why they

are slightly, you know, why they are

concerned.

>> You mentioned entry- levelvel jobs are

kind of under the microscope when we

think about artificial intelligence. Why

is that the case? Why is it that we are

thinking of them as a separate category

that that group of people who are just

trying to get their first job?

>> Well, I don't actually think of them as

a separate category in relation to AI. I

think AI is changing the nature of work

at all levels, whether you're entry

level or somebody approaching

retirement. But I think if you think the

debate is often around AI and impact on

jobs and I think what our AI jobs

barometer which we released last week is

showing is actually the story is

actually much more around productivity

and skills. So in those sectors most

exposed to AI what we're seeing that the

organizations that are getting ahead are

seeing you three times growth in

productivity. Um yeah that's where the

work has fundamentally been redesigned.

So why is that happening when people

talk about redesign work? One thing

they're not doing is just layering AI

on, bolting AI onto existing ways of

working. Okay, some organizations have

done that in the chase of efficiencies

and you might get some incremental

efficiencies. You don't see the

long-term value. The organizations

getting ahead are fundamentally breaking

down work and working out what what is

the outcome they're trying to achieve?

What's the role of technology? What's

the role of the human being? Now if you

break down a job into tasks and skills

that's where I think AI is really coming

to play because there are certain tasks

that absolutely can be you know lend

themselves to be automated um cognitive

repetition um a AI comes to the four

there then back to your question around

why entry level getting the focus

because actually in those entry level

jobs much of of what the tasks they've

done traditionally can be automated but

what can't be automated is actually what

the the skills that are in huge demand

two times growth rate in the AI exposed

sector they're human skills judgment

problem solving critical thinking

relationship building that's the

fundamental question for leaders how do

you create that experience for entry-

level workers to create those skills

which traditionally have been developed

through if you like the apprenticeship

of you know doing the work and sitting

in a room and watching and listening how

do how do you recreate those experience

and focus on the learning required ired

such that in 5 7 10 years time we've got

leaders coming through the pipeline to

take on the mantle within the

organizations around the world. I think

it's I think there's a responsibility of

business leaders of policy makers of

educators to actually make sure we

intentionally design those experiences

such that young people can can gather

them and gain them such that they do

have the confidence when they go go into

the world of work. We know from our

research that um on entry- level skills,

employers are asking for seven times

greater what we would call seniorized um

skills. Skills that historically would

have developed in the first three to

four years. They're asking for those up

front. So, how do you create those? It's

not going to happen by osmosis. You've

got to be intentional about how you do

that. My encouragement to young people

is you again to take to take heed from

from history. you know, we've se after

every sort of revolution um in the world

of work, there's always been a net

increase in jobs. They're just different

jobs. And I've said for a long time, you

know, you can you can um protect people.

You can't protect jobs. Jobs will

change. They'll evolve. I think the

difference in in the current era is the

speed of that change. It's happening so

so quickly. But I think my my

encouragement to young people is you

take to take take take

be optimistic around the opportunity AI

brings but recognize that whereas in the

yesterday year organizations would hire

for if you like domain technical

expertise I think now yes you need

domain expertise but you also need what

I call AI fluency so for young people

take any opportunity to work with AI to

experiment with it to create the agility

the adaptability

but the other ingredient that employees

are al also seeking are those you know

people with those human skills the ones

I mentioned earlier on so for me taking

any opportunity where you're leading

where you're organizing where you're

bringing people you know a group of

people through some through some kind of

journey where you have to have diff you

learn to have difficult conversations

manage conflict um learn to build

relationships learn to speak and

communicate clearly any opportunity to

do that be that at school or at

university or at college you know I' I'd

embrace with with open arms

>> from experience PWC. What are some of

the ways that experiences could be

redesigned for entry- level workers?

>> Well, I think you know we like everybody

else are on this journey, right? So, I

wouldn't for one minute say we've got it

cracked, but we have made great progress

in terms of how we are intentionally

redesigning the the experience and work

across all our organizations. We have to

continually evolve, develop, reinvent to

maintain relevance to our to our

customers. When I joined PWC, I think

there were at least 17 18 ways you could

join at the entry level perspective.

It's now down to about five and it will

change again. Again, when I joined it

was people from certain degrees and that

there that there were certain

universities that we hired from. Again,

we've we've be we're much more diverse

and inclusive in terms of how we do that

in terms of the the people we hire and

we hire very much more now for potential

and skills as opposed to sort of badges

and career titles. And and then we've

been very intentional around the

experience our colleagues have when they

join in those early years. And I I think

it's a much broader experience which if

you like in terms of we know from from

the hopes and fear survey again workers

want flexibility and they want to be

able to apply their skills in a variety

of contexts not just in one particular

area and I think by by the way we've

changed our experience allows for that

sort of to create much greater agility

in the workforce which I think it works

for the for colleagues but also as a

business it works because it means we

can actually apply you know the right

skilled people in the right place at the

right time much more consistently.

>> You're the co-author of the new report

that we published with the World

Economic Forum and PWC and I was

wondering what are some of the findings

that surprised you the most in that

report.

>> So, so the report um artificial

intelligence and the impacts on future

entry- level workers um it's been a

fantastic collaboration. What surprised

me I think back to the whole debate

around AI and jobs which is something

that you know if we wanted to draw a

headline we could do that very easily

right and we see that all the time dare

I say sometimes those headlines aren't

backed up by evidence and data this

report really is lots of organizations

have been interviewed seeing exactly

what they're doing and I think my pos

positive message was that in many cases

they're actually increasing their hiring

at that entry level so there there's

there's a couple of um organizations in

there where you know they talk about how

they're specifically hiring more and

actually intentionally redesigning the

experience in in one organization. and

it talks about hiring 25% more um

against a rationale of if we don't

invest in the the start of the pipeline

how how are we going to have leaders in

five 10 years time right so that I was

encouraged by that another one was

actually was a large technology company

um where again there's often a a view

that actually well it's coding so it'll

be a machine so you don't need human

beings they're actually saying no

actually for their coders that they're

bringing on they're actually still

develop developing them in fundamental

coding experience

before they're sort of letting them

loose into the AI world. Why? Because

they want coders who have got that human

judgment, you know, because at the end

of the day, it's the humans that will be

making the decisions, not the the

technology. So, they want their coders

to have that human judgment such they

can make better decisions going forward.

So, great examples for me of humans and

technology working together. I have some

data here showing that 81% of employers

surveyed in the report say they

prioritized applied experience actually

and 34% said they prioritize degrees.

How do you view this interesting

dynamic? Do you think this could be a

catch 22 for graduates? How should they

perceive this skills versus degree

dilemma?

>> I think I think the catch 22 you

describe is a understandable dilemma.

We've got workers who um sort of

employers who are seeking entry- level

workers with sort of applied experience

and yet the paths to get that experience

in order to get through the door in the

first place are can appear to be quite

challenging. So I think it's around

making sure we have a a variety of

routes into that into that world of

work. Yet for some people going to

university and getting a degree is

absolutely right for them. for others a

more apprenticeship um appro approach

makes sense but and I think there are a

variety of uh ways in which we can

prepare young people but I think that

requires a lot more focus from business

leaders from educators from policy

makers to actually make sure that we're

doing that it's not again it's not going

to happen by accident we've got to be

very intentional about that and I think

that requires a um a lot of

collaboration across organizations to to

make that happen

>> what do you think people misunderstand

about AI and the future of work. What

are some things that often people have a

certain notion of and you wish to

clarify? I think the two biggest

misconceptions for me um are one is that

AI automatically means job loss right

for me it's actually around it's around

around the productivity and the skill

story and much more around work design

and indeed that's what what our data is

consistently showing us you know we are

seeing that those organizations that are

getting ahead are redesigning work and

they're seeing greater levels of

productivity revenue per employee and

actually we're seeing an increase in in

their hiring there as well I think the

second misconception is that AI

automatically means that human skills

become uh less important and actually

we're seeing the reverse actually as AI

is getting more advanced actually the

requirement for more advanced human

skills is increasing hence why I will

keep talking about the importance of

developing people with those those human

skills those skills that AI can't do

>> and acknowledging I guess that the world

of work is changing already not being in

denial about it the change is is well

advanced, right? Um and I think you when

people come and talk about the future of

work, well that's now, right? So I think

that's the urgency given the pace of

change. This is not something we can

just sit idly by and hope, right? That's

not really a strategy. We've got to be

intentional. We've got to work together

to actually make sure that we're

preparing young people for the world of

work now and for the next 20, 30, 40

years. H

>> we were lucky to have a host of chief

people officers and HR leads in our New

York office this spring. I'll finish

this episode with the advice they'd only

give new grads this year. We'll start

with Karina Cortez. She's the chief

people officer at Cornerstone on Demand.

She'll share the risks to avoid, how to

think beyond the task at hand, and to

lean into your fears. So my advice for

new grads that I think is a lot

different than than what I would have

done previously is to focus on the

outcome or the wisdom uh versus the

task. Again, when I think about how I

grew up and how a lot of my um cohort um

that came into the the workforce came

in, it was doing a lot of the task work.

It was understanding how something

worked. What was the whole process? Can

we continuously improve this process?

That's all being done by technology

nowadays. So what's really critical now

is to focus on what's going to happen as

a result of that and then what are the

critical thinking skills or what is the

accountability I need to put on top of

that. Um and so I think that's a lot

different than what I would have been

asking people to think about previously

as they're they're new grads coming into

the workplace. The risk is if someone

does not focus on outcome and is is

really task based is that role is going

to be obsolete. Um, we just keep seeing

that day after day of the routine work,

the efficiency plays, those are going

into place in a lot of organizations

because we want humans, we want people

to focus on higher order work. We want

them to be much more strategic. We want

to understand how we can keep up with

our competitors in the marketplace etc.

much more quickly than we have been

before. So if we're focusing if you as a

new grad are focusing just on the tasks

to be done, you're going to get left

behind from the people who are actually

able to level up if you will and really

think about the outcome impact um that

that that initiative or project that

you're working on um is going to have.

Yeah. Words of comfort I would give to

anyone entering the workforce for the

first time is something I wish I would

have learned earlier in my career is if

you're scared, do it anyway. I think

that those opportunities where I had the

most fear, I had the most trepidation. I

didn't know what was going to come next.

I I love to plan things. However, the

opportunities that I jumped into where I

was feeling those things have been where

I have learned the most and I think have

made me the leader I am today have made

me the person I am today, the mother,

um, etc., etc. So, jump into that, lean

into that, uh, lean into the fear and I

think you'll do a lot of learning and

growing if you do so. Leaning into the

fear and and leaning into the yes, if

you will, is really important in this

fastchanging environment because if you

can lean into that fear and try

something new out, you're going to learn

so much more yourself. You are going to

now have an applicable experience to

apply to something else. I am very

forthright with my team, by the way, and

letting them know, look, I'm taking

myself a vibe coding class because I I

want to understand what we're asking

other people to do. Does it scare me?

Yes. I'm not a technologist by nature. I

I went into the human resources field uh

for a very specific reason, but I also

understand that if I don't, I'm going to

get left behind because I'm not going to

understand enough. And so I think to

stay current, it is this opportunity to

keep leaning into new things, trying new

things out, figure out what works and

what doesn't for you. Um just because

somebody else likes it and loves it

doesn't mean it's going to work for me,

but I'm not going to know that unless I

try it.

>> Maria Flynn is the CEO of Nonprofit Jobs

for the Future. You might remember her

from last week's episode on fixing the

skills mismatch. You'll want to bone up

on that one. But here's the advice that

she is giving her daughter. Advice

that's valuable to workers of any age.

>> My oldest daughter is graduating in May,

so I'm I am living this in in real time

and talking with her and a lot of her

her friends. I would say two things

really come to mind. One is where you

start is not going to be where you

finish, right? So, it's like

understanding that even in the best of

times, that first job is likely not

going to be your dream job. And I even

say to my daughter, you know, I I wasn't

a CEO coming right out of [laughter]

college. You know, I was an entry- level

government worker working with, you

know, five other women in Philadelphia.

You know, it was not a glamorous uh

lifestyle. But wherever you start,

really be sure that you are learning

from that experience. Both in terms of

really identifying the skills that

you're learning, identifying what you

like and don't like about that

experience and how that can help you

guide to your next thing. So, it's

really, you know, understanding that

nothing is forever, right? Like your

first job is not going to be the job you

have forever. And but yet every job,

including that first job, can really

give you a wealth of information and

experience and skills that you can build

upon.

>> We'll finish this episode where we

started with Peter Brown. Here's his

advice for entry- levelvel workers. It's

a reminder on passion that can give even

veteran leaders a north star during an

uncertain time. I think a number of

things I would I would suggest and again

with my own children I try and sort of

have this kind of conversation with them

is first don't lose that excitement

right what are you passionate about and

where possible can can you follow that

passion and do something that you really

enjoy where you think you can make a

difference so I think do something

you're passionate about I think secondly

I would say don't necessarily view it in

terms of traditional jobs view it in

terms of skills right as as the world of

work is changing the focus on skills is

much more profound and I think there

there in that skills lens you know yes

there's there'll be an area of domain

tech your if you like your technical

skills that you're going to focus on but

actually align to that I think take any

opportunity to you know to to experiment

with AI tools to get that experience to

apply it in whatever context you're in

and create that agility and that sort of

fluency and thirdly I think that focus

around developing those human skills

which we know are in such high demand

particularly at entry level. So any

opportunity to to learn leadership

skills, to develop relationships,

teamwork, problem solving, critical

thinking, really easy to say, hard to

do, but take any opportunity. Um, and

there's all sorts of contexts of young

people where they can, you know,

potentially go and develop those skills.

>> And that's the final episode in our AI

and job series. Thanks so much to all of

the leaders who have talked to me and my

colleagues for this series. If you know

someone wondering what's ahead for AI

jobs and skills and [music] really that

should be everyone, send them this

episode. I mentioned our AI and

entrylevel jobs report. I'll have a link

to that in our show notes as well as the

PWC reports Peter mentioned the hopes

and fears survey and PWC's global AI and

jobs barometer. To listen to more

podcasts, including my colleagues

podcast, Radio Davos, go to w.ch.

ch/mpodcasts.

This episode of Meet the Leader was

produced and presented by me with

Sheamus Hart as editor and Gareth

[music] Nolan driving studio production.

That's it for now. I'm Linda Lina from

the World Economic Forum. Have a great

day.