Welcome to Radio Davos and

>> I'm Ravi Valour with the Straits Times

and this [music] is the Straits Times

Asian Insider podcast.

>> It's great to be pres co-presenting with

you Ravi. Absolute delight. We've talked

about this literally for years.

>> Absolutely.

>> And uh so finally we get to do it. Yeah.

So Radio Davos for your listeners is the

weekly podcast from the World Economic

Forum which looks up lots of big issues

in the world with the emphasis on

potential solutions, ways of dealing

with those problems. What What's your

podcast about?

>> Well, it's about Asia generally and it's

a weekly podcast [music] and it rotates

between four of us and I do it on the

second Friday of every month.

>> Great. Well, and audiences will get the

best of both worlds. We have a fantastic

guest with us to talk about China and

China in the world. She's the founder

and chief executive officer of Wawa

Advisory. It's Tienlu.

>> Correct.

>> Very good. [laughter] Did I get the name

of your advisory company?

>> Absolutely. Yes. Thank you.

>> Tell us what what that is.

>> Wawa is a name um that I created. It

takes after the Swahili name of Wawa. So

takes the W outside the equation. So

it's USA WA which means balance and

equity. So I got the inspiration from

Masamara when I was there and I realized

look at nature you know nature has this

magical way of balancing different

species and how is it in the current

geopolitical world that we have is so

disrupted and uneven. So I felt that you

know the company that we have um the

mission is really to provide that

understanding and bridges to help the

business to navigate through this very

uncertain and uneven geopolitical world

especially in the age of China rising

and Swahili is great because that's

where humans originated from. So that's

how we got the name. The purpose is to

help business to navigate through this

uncertain and uneven geopolitical world.

You're the perfect guest for this

episode.

>> Absolutely, Robin.

>> She's absolutely perfect. And what a

name uh that that you given your

company. If you don't mind me telling

you a little bit of a story about the

African dung beetle. Uh [laughter]

>> would you be s would you like to know

that the African dung beetle navigates

at night using the Milky Way as its

guide point?

>> That's beautiful. That shows how related

man and not just man but beast and even

the smallest insect is with the

universe.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. We've started very poetic and but

it's great to be talking about the

environment because I've not been

hearing enough about that.

>> Absolutely.

>> Um you know our relationship with nature

>> ecosystem really.

>> Great. Well hopefully we'll get on to

that a little bit. But first you

mentioned the the period of China

rising. Um we're speaking by the way uh

here at the World Economic Forums.

summer Davos in China in Dallion and

yeah it's China rising but there are

challenges to the Chinese economy aren't

there if I came to you and said can you

explain to me we know China's had an

economic miracle but where are things

right now what are the challenges what

would you tell me

>> yeah so uh I'd like to start by saying

that there are both challenges and great

opportunities at the Chinese economy but

when we look at the challenges um let me

frame it when we look at sort of the

typical way of looking at any economy

which is the three key pillars the

export and the import sector the private

consumption part and then there is the

investment part so when it comes to

export actually it's very important to

know that as much as the world is

talking about China you know over

capacity um sort of uh the rising trade

surplus like last year China's trade

surplus grew by 20% compared to the year

before right um so this is causing a lot

of discussions in the world but the

truth is export does not matter matters

to China as much as before. At the peak

of time about 20 years ago, 2007,

export was 35% of China's GDP and right

now is about only half of that. Last

year was 19 18% of it. And as much as we

talk about you know tariffs with the US

for instance, the trade to US is only a

tiny part of that. In in fact last year,

China's export to the US was less than

10%. And so that is less than 10% of

less than 50% of the peak. So when you

do the math, even if the entire China's

export to the US were to collapse, that

is only about 2% of China's GDP. So

export as important and much discussed

is not the most important part of the

Chinese economy. But there are of course

challenges. for instance, terrorist war

with the US, but I'm a lot more worried

about the upcoming uh trade war

potentially um with with Europe. So

that's one side and then the largest

part of the Chinese economy is private

consumption and that's worrying because

that's almost 40% of the GDP. So how how

this perform is fundamental um to

Chinese economy but there is a level of

lack of confidence to start with the uh

annual disposable growth rate is much

slower compared to before so last year

was 5% the same level of GDP not like 8%

or double digit growth right and on top

of that the unemployment rate is quite

high and the youth unemployment is

especially high um depending on you know

different surveys whether it's official

or some professors the highest number

I've seen for youth uh unemployment was

46% a couple of years ago and this is

enormous so imagine you're one of the

consumer

>> 46% 40% yes for youth right so kids

graduate from college they don't have a

job right so put yourself into their

shoes then

>> your annual income is not really growing

as much as before on top of that you

have a much higher chance of getting

unemployed of course you don't have the

confidence to spend and there's another

side of that which is the wealth um uh

impact. So property market is very

important to China and according to some

different surveys the absolute majority

of Chinese household own a house of some

sort. So more than 90% of Chinese

household own a house and 20% of them

own at least two houses or even more.

Now when the property prices start to

drop that means

all of a sudden I don't feel as rich as

before but when the price was going up

before every day even if I weren't doing

anything I was becoming richer of course

I had the confidence to spend but now I

don't so when you put all these three

together I'm not earning as much or

rapidly growth as before I have a higher

risk of getting unemployed and then I'm

not as rich as before obviously the

confidence to spend is much lower than

before. So that is really the biggest

challenge for the private consumption

part. And then finally is the investment

side whether it's infrastructure or

property market or just sort of overall

investment fiscal investment you know

all the companies investment we're also

seeing that um a level of uncertainty

whether is caused by the external world

or the lack of confident that is all

feeding into that sentiment and then on

top of that interesting there are times

I compare China with Silinkin Valley in

the sense that Silicon Valley is you

know the place that we have venture

capitals that we try a lot of different

project right and in China is the same

different provinces compete different

cities compete so it's like a giant

venture capital but the beauty of

venture capital is that you have so many

pipeline project at the same time and

also the spirit is you fail fast and

then you pivot fast and that was in in

an essence how China was like people

were encouraged to try different things.

It's fine if you make mistakes but then

you try something else but right now the

overall sentiment is not to make any

mistakes. And what is if if you change

that success or pivot fast um if you

change the KPI from that to make fewer

mistakes then what is the safe bet? The

safer bet is not to do anything. And

that to me is something that is a big

challenge that sentiment change in

China. So, um, yeah, that's where China

is.

>> Chen, you know, uh, in April 2020,

I wrote a column in the Straits Times,

and it's called the risks of putting all

your eggs in the China basket.

>> And one of the points I picked up in

that uh, column is the massive debt pile

of China Everrand.

And I said, look, this doesn't look

sustainable. And it reminds me of the

early days of the Asian financial crisis

and you know what happened to real

estate. But I've heard lately that a lot

of that poison has left the system. Is

there hope for a turnaround in Chinese

property uh in the near future? Is there

something that you see? I wouldn't

um put my money to bet on a high return

of Chinese property market in the longer

term, right?

>> There are certain positive factors that

will continue to drive the Chinese

property market, whether it's

urbanization rate, where is the growth

in people's incomes, da da da, but there

are also big factors to um drag this

down. for instance um whether the

current stocks in certain regions are

much higher compared to the actual

demand or we look at um you know the

major demographic shifts as such. So, so

property market would not be like sort

of the fast growing engine for Chinese

economy going forward.

>> Maybe pockets of it because I was

talking to a major Australian uh

property developer and they were talking

about going into the elder care uh

segment as a possible growth opportunity

in China. You know, building for the

elderly. Uh Robin,

>> just for anyone who's not following Asia

quite as closely as both of you, the

Ever Grand affair was this uh Chinese

property development company um that got

into a lot of trouble because of debt.

Um there was so much in in your initial

answer.

I don't know what to come back. The f

the first follow-up question I thought

of you said the impending trade war with

Europe.

I'm I'm often curious what is a trade

war? Because is there a trade war with

the the US at the moment? There

certainly there've been trade battles

maybe I don't know but why do you think

there's well apparently an inevitable

trade war with Europe?

>> I hope I'm wrong but um perhaps instead

of saying inevitable I would say the

very likely uh upcoming trade war with

Europe initiated by Europe. I just came

back from Europe and I'm more convinced

and worried than ever about that. So the

trade, we'll call it trade war, trade

frictions with the United States, you

know, between these two countries,

you're still seeing the the bans of rare

rare earth or high-end chips and all of

that. And you still see quite a level of

terrorists um on many uh products. So I

would still call that a trade war even

if it's no longer 145% right. Um but

with Europe is is different. US and

especially the Trump administration is

very quotequote practical about this. So

to President Trump is more a negotiation

is his art of the deal. So it's

everything is about to come up with a

number that he would be very happy about

and he can change it from the morning to

the evening but not so much about

Europe. The way I see it is that Europe

is slowly cooking that negative

sentiment about trade with China, about

trade um deficit with China, and that it

takes quite some time for Europe to

decide the actions, but once they do, it

will stick. And when they do that, China

will also retaliate. and China

cares more about the United States um

than any other countries unfortunately

in this case and so China would

retaliate

and then chances are Europe would add on

top of that and the narratives are just

changing before it was just about trade

and now it's changing into people are

getting unemployed because of China

there's part of me almost

hating to repeat this at the podcast

because it only reinforced versus that,

you know. So there there there there's

there two me at the moment. There's the

me that is the economist me advising the

world the risks are coming. There's the

other me as a human and we know that

psychologically the more we repeat

something the chances are it'll happen

or the more you're scared about

something chances are it it will happen

and this is where I'm worried about.

>> So I had aligned at the economist about

how China look at the Europe. People

both love it and hate it. People love it

because they believe it's so true. They

hate it because it's so brutal. And I

used to study and live in Europe. So

there's part of me almost don't want to

say it. But the line was that Europe is

being seen as an aging concubine

>> um that has not accepted the fact

>> that it's been ditched by the American

emperor. So as someone who studied and

lived there, Europe is like my second

home. It pens me to say that. Um and I

certainly do not hope that we will see

that

>> uh trade war between Europe and China.

>> Is it [laughter]

>> is it so like like any war like a hot

war

you can see a buildup of arms and then

someone goes over the top and the war

actually starts. Do you know when it's

going to happen and do you know what

will be the first battle? Is it going to

be about a certain product or product

lines and is is this going to happen in

the next six months in the next two

years?

>> Technically it already happened. I mean

Europe imposed certain tariffs and

barriers on for instance Chinese EV cars

and China as retaliation also took on

certain things such as um agriculture

and also um cognac for instance and it

was when you look at this is so

interesting because EV is less than 1%

of the trade between Europe and China

less than 1% but is becoming the

dominant talk about the Chinese trade

with Europe right so China's retaliation

is almost like so perfectly engineered

to go against that versus one of that

was cognac because cognac it has to be

cognac from the region of cognac in

France which is so typically European

and is also less than 1% of the total

trade between Europe and Europe and

China. So China has engineered this

beautifully. So technically it's already

happened but more are being discussed as

we speak. So later this year I think

there's a very high likelihood that

we're going to see more actions from uh

Brussels.

>> Right. Sure. And I know the Chinese too

love their cognac, but have they tried

armanyak as a substitute?

>> Uh I'm not an expert on alcohol, so I I

I can't different region.

>> Maybe the almanac.

>> I like bubble tea better. [laughter]

>> Maybe the Armenyak producers should be

lobbying Beijing for the cognac,

>> right? Uh [laughter] can I just ask uh

ask ask you a question because you

talked about trade and uh how Chinese uh

trade as a uh as a factor of the Chinese

GDP has actually come down

significantly.

>> Yes.

>> Uh but you know we in Southeast Asia we

are very sensitive to uh China's

economy. We want the Chinese economy to

do well because it helps us as well, you

know, but one of the issues we're having

is that look, you did mention that trade

as a percentage of GDP has come down,

but we're talking about a much bigger as

percentage

>> uh as as a percentage of GDP has come

down, but we're talking about a much

bigger Chinese economy. Now this

morning, Premier Lee Chang said, "Please

don't talk about the second China

shock." Uh, you know, I think he said

that in his speech, but the fact is that

China has got so good at manufacturing.

uh and maybe you don't have much of a

option because as you said investment is

slowing, consumption is uh you know for

whatever reason is taking a a breather

but the the Chinese export push

especially after the US markets became a

little constrained into Southeast Asia

is causing a lot of grief in Southeast

Asia. In Indonesia, we have had

significant losses in the uh textile

industry and the Chinese are actually

selling but shirts to Indonesia.

In Malaysia, the furniture industry is

in crisis because the Chinese exports

are so good. Furniture exports. Thai

auto industry is in trouble. Is there

something? Because we remember China

when we signed the ASEAN China FDA.

China gave us an early harvest and which

helped all the ASEAN economies. But

today because of your own domestic

constraints are you compelled to keep

pushing the exports

out into the world including in Europe

you know to come back to where you

started is that a factor that you know I

mean you do need to find jobs for the

people 45% youth unemployment is a

frightening number you know the last I

heard that number was in the Indian

context I thought China was much lower

than that 28% but what you said

certainly surprised What do you think?

What do you think China can do so that

it doesn't

kill the goose uh uh uh you know of

consumption in the surrounding economies

that are so critical to it?

>> Yeah, that's a really good question and

um there are few foes that we can look

at this and to start with when I say you

know export doesn't matter to China that

much I meant from the Chinese economy

perspective as the question went. Um but

I certainly understand the level of sort

of

>> concern the rest of the world would have

and even say that 5% of of GDP growth

that China enjoys every year um that is

every year China produces a new country

that is the size of Switzerland

>> or Saudi Arabia.

>> So that is enormous and last year trade

surplus was 1.2 trillion. that is um

absolutely enormous. So I understand

this but perhaps let me try to reframe

it and also how in a way China looks at

this and then we can talk about how

China decide to make this more

sustainable. I have analogy

um that when we think about Chinese

manufacturing think about China is a

shop that sells ice creams. Okay.

Imagine vanilla ice creams. And as you

said, China feels like is so good. Let

me try to do the President Trump way. Is

so good.

>> Oh, there you go.

>> And so cheap. [snorts] And that you buy

so much out of China and you get fat.

And then you complain it to China. And

you say it's China's fault that you're

becoming so fat. And China's like, "Wait

a second. You have every right not to

buy us. You buy it not because we force

it on you, but because we're so good and

so cheap. So who is the one to blame

here?

So when we talk about trade surpluses,

deficits, there's part of China feels a

bit vulnerable in the sense that we

would love to buy more from you, but

what do you have to sell it to us?

I'm looking at certain interviewees

about your

>> but but we're back with trade wars that

so governments could say okay it is

great goods from China but we're getting

fat to use your analogy we'll put up

we'll put up trade barriers isn't that

the inevitable

>> and some people might say that yes and

no we need get to get more time to be as

fit as you are uh

>> that would be a healthier way so

protections are for the weak rather than

say, um, I'm going to not buy your ice

creams. You can also say, I'm going to

produce better ice creams that are

tastier and cheaper. So, that would be

the other way around. As always, as

trained economists, as sensible as we

are, we know that tariffs are bad. Um,

protections are for the weak. So, that's

something I want to argue. But then to

um to go back to your question about how

sustainable this is in fact China itself

realizes that this is not sustainable

and there are different China like so

when we talk about you China what is

that you is it the government is it the

business is it the Chinese people the

answers are completely different on this

for all of these all of the above

whether the government or the business

or the Chinese people we know that it's

not sustainable for instance when you

look at the much younger people um

there's this phenomena called lying flat

that

>> they ting um that the younger uh that

the young generation believe that it's

much more important to be happy rather

than work hard and make money. But I'm

from the generation where when I grow up

we had very little food. I couldn't have

like meat in my dumplings only at

Chinese New Year, right? So it's a

completely different kind of mentality.

So when you are a lot more well off then

you don't bother to work as hard

anymore. That is part of the reason why

this is not going to be sustainable

because the younger generation will be

different. And then on top of it is that

the business realized that this is not

sustainable. Um when we visit some of

the Chinese companies in different um

you know cities and regions we see that

uh right after co they were extra

working hard even if they were losing

money and I asked them why is that

because there are two different concepts

of cost there is the average and fixed

cost there is the marginal cost. So if

they have invested all this machinery

and everything even if the marginal cost

so long the money they make is higher

than the marginal cost they are happy to

continue to do that. The the simple

answer they said to me is I know I'm

losing money but if I don't I would lose

out even more money. So that's why they

were doing it. But already, especially

since last year, we're seeing that this

so-called involution nan the like extra

competitiveness among Chinese companies

themselves are starting to change. So

the business realized themselves that

this is not sustainable.

>> So they're changing that organically

without the interference with the

government or with people or from the

rest of the world. And Chinese

government also realizes this. I mean

that's why as you said you know the

prime minister mentioned that that the

China shock is the wrong way to put it

that the China opportunity is really the

right way to put it the government has

all this pressure from Europe from you

know Latin America etc they want China

to buy more to reduce that trade deficit

and China will look to do that and for

instance one of that would be service

account right because typically when we

talk about trade surplus we just think

about goods uh per se but um depending

how you want to play around the numbers

for the argument if anything the service

account uh trade deficit that China runs

it almost increased by seven times in

the last 5 years time. So it depends how

um we frame this.

>> I just wanted to mention the straight of

horm's effect um on China. I' interested

to hear Ravi as well the impact that's

had in Southeast Asia where where you're

based. [snorts] What impact has it had

on China? because I've spoken to several

Chinese people who've said actually

we've been pretty insulated from it

because of electrification

of our cars and the fact we're producing

so much renewable energy here. How do

you see it and do you think there's it's

a game changer? Will it change anything

in terms of the bigger picture on

anything in China?

>> Economically it hasn't impacted China

that much. um is more on the political

and geopolitical front. Less than 50% of

China's import of oil go through the

strait whether is import from Iran,

Iraq, Saudi etc. So um that is quite a

bit of share but on the other hand oil

is only about 6% or 7% of ch total China

energy use. So the impact that has

brought directly on China is much less

compared to for instance Europe, right?

And then on top of that, China has an

oil storage about seven months or so. So

this really like if you ask citizens on

the street, ask a random person, they

they feel a bit not so much. But more

importantly is the idea that this is

changing and giving the world a

different perspective of the current

Trump administration and how is really

disrupting and shaking people's faith

and uh in the US leadership of the world

and that China is watching it more um

enthusiastically. Since you spoke about

US leadership, how much of a watershed

has this year 2026 been in global

affairs? You saw a a very uh I don't

want to say timid, but a very

respectful, polite

Donald Trump show up in Beijing. How

much has the world changed for China in

this year? So from the US geopolitical

perspective um yes so much has changed.

I mean you know we start the year by

seeing um US taking um President Maduro

from Venezuela and then you know uh

President Trump keep on insisting and be

even more assertive on Greenland for

instance right and then we had Iran um

and then we had President Trump visiting

um China. So to China somewhat this year

was more about watching US destroying

itself and its allies globally. You're

absolutely right that President Trump u

visited China and he called presidenc a

great leader incredible China and all of

that but China is not naive in the sense

that it believes this will be how the

bilateral relationship going forward. Um

the very reason why President Trump

turned um it stand and style with China

is because China showed the rare earth

card and President Trump is someone that

believes in the games of power

>> and China showed his hand and that was

very critical. So the fact that the two

countries are um smiling at each other

and shaking hands certainly do not mean

that this will be the

great relationship, you know, romantic

honeymoon going forward. But at least

before the midterm, um the bilateral

relationship would be very stable,

>> right?

>> And depending on how the midterm goes,

um President Trump may adopt a different

strategy on China or maybe not. So for

instance um Russia, Ukraine, Israel,

Palestine, Iran, all of these is

distracting um the US um from its

priority on China. It's just got its

hands so full at the moment. It's got no

attention or ability really in a way at

least trade- wise to take um on China.

But that is just trade for instance. The

bilateral relationship goes so much more

beyond just trade. There's technology

rivalry, there's um military security

rivalry and there is financial rivalry.

So I believe the ongoing frictions

between US China will be one of the key

defining themes in the world.

>> So it's not ended. The story that story

is not ended.

>> Oh no, this is just the beginning of the

>> just the beginning. And do you think in

about 5 years from now when

the Americans fix their vulnerability on

rare earths that fear of China will

certainly go away?

>> To start with there is no way that US

will be able to catch up with China's uh

level of dominance on rare earth.

>> Is that so? um in 5 years in 5 years

because you talk about 5 years when we

talk about the dominance in rare earth

there is the access to the resources

itself and there is also the capacity to

produce and process them so China has

the absolute dominant power on both side

right so US will not be able to replace

China for at least another

>> and Europe everywhere yeah so so that's

why people are concerned about you know

interdependence of supply chains and all

of that But on rare earth, can I just

say it's actually very important to know

that China didn't want to play the rare

earth card. So, you know, Europe is

quite concerned about China continue to

use this. Let me emphasize again that

China does China did not want to play

the rare earth card. If it wanted to, it

would have played this long time ago. In

fact, it's almost a public knowledge.

Everybody knows about it. So the

question should really be people know

that China has access and dominance of

this. Why did they not think China can

do? Because China never played this car.

Um chairman Don Xiaoing said decades ago

that the Middle East has oil and China

has rare earth. This is no secret. China

could have played this. China could have

played this 40 years ago. China could

have played this in the first Trump

administration. It did not. China could

have played immediately immediately on

liberation day. China did not. China

played the rare earth card when the back

and forth of the tariffs war

negotiations between the two country

were just dragging on and on and back

and forth and almost with higher than

expected or wouldliked

kind of risks. That was when China

decided enough is enough like no is no.

That is when China played the card.

China never wanted to because look at

this one of the consequences Europe and

many other regions got scared and say

we're worried that China might want to

play it on China does not if anything

China is still as prime minister uh

Liang called this morning China still

wants a very stable global economy and

China is still very committed and wants

a good globalization and economic

globalization because China benefits

from that so China doesn't want any

trade wars whatsoever

>> right do you

China has a similar dominance in active

pharmaceutical

ingredients APIs as they have in rare.

>> I'm not an expert on that specific

industries. Um

but my limited knowledge is that is not

um but is certainly getting more power

than before. I mean one of my favorite

example is that um we we have the

there's this Chinese company who the

founder was uh I forgot Harvard or MIT

educated so she set up the company in

Boston a brilliant hub for biio medicine

related but especially during co time so

she came back and over time she took the

team back with her so now their

headquarters in China with all the R&D

centers in China and only the sales and

marketing teams in the US because they

know the language which they know how to

sell. And this is a great example of

telling us cuz when people think about

Chinese manufacturers, a few years ago

it was about EV and then it was AI,

deepseek and now we're looking at

robotics. The next is very likely to be

biotech.

>> I did want to ask you about um the

gender gap. The World Economic Forum

produces every year the uh global gender

gap report. I know it's something you've

taken a great interest in. You mentioned

your book on the subject has become so

successful. what's happened to it?

>> Yes. So, I wrote a book on gender

economics in Mandarin at the moment. Um,

it got so popular that there are pirated

copies now,

>> right? People are clamoring for it

>> because the rise of female power is, you

know, I talk about the rise of China is

one of the key defining themes of the

century and the rise of female powers is

another one.

>> How do you tell companies or governments

that it's in their interest to address

the gender gap?

>> Well, because it's good for the women

and the men and the children and the

economy. So let me take one example. So

there's studies looking at the world in

the past 46 years and basically if you

put a dollar on investment on the US

bonds and stock market your annual

return was 2.4%.

But if you invest that in people's

education every additional year of uh

education the average return is about

8.8%. That means investing into human

capital gives you a lot higher yield

than financial capital. And within this

8.8% the returns to women education is

10%. Which means that it's guaranteed

that when you invest more in women, the

women make more. On top of that, there's

a study in the US showing that when the

wife's education grows by an additional

year, the husband makes an additional

somewhere between 18% to 23%. So that's

great for the men as well. And on top of

that, we see that when the women are

better educated, the kids are taller, um

they're healthier, they have better

performance at school. So that's good

for um the next generation as well. And

then on top of that, it's actually very

good for the economic growth. So for

instance, according to UN women um they

have um a finding suggesting that when

we invest more in women, that can

significantly increase the global GDP by

about 4 trillion US dollars by 2030. And

that is more than 3% of the current GDP

that we have. So that's why I say

educating the women is great for

everybody. For women, for the men, for

the kids, and for the society and the

economy.

>> Right. But Chun, you were born in

Shanong, right?

>> Yes.

>> And that is known to be a fairly

traditional Chinese society in Shanong

if I'm not mistaken. Did you get lucky?

Where did you get your fantastic

education in Europe?

>> How did you manage to do it? Were your

parents uh far-sighted or uh they just

wanted you to have the best?

>> Um yes. So I was born in Tinga in

Shandong where Confucious came from.

It's very traditional. So even nowadays

in certain part of Shandong um women are

not allowed to dine at the same table

with men and that whenever we go out

you're supposed to give men the face,

let them talk more. Let them take the

lead. you know, you smile and collapse

when they do the talk. Um, so that was

one side of me. And then I had the

opportunity to study in Sweden, um, one

of the most gender equal country in the

world, and also at UC Berkeley, the most

sort of progressive, um, university. So

I got very lucky in that I saw that

gender equality can be very different

and that they are possible. So one of my

PhD thesis well the majority of them

were about labor economics even though

later I dived into you know

macroeconomics uh geopolitical economics

d one of my PhD thesis was about labor

economics human capital D and one of

that was to study is it true that when

women are better educated we have a

lower marriage rate

>> because back then um there was a saying

in China that there are three kinds of

people in the world. A man and a woman

and a woman who has a PhD and I was

getting my PhD and there were another

saying that there are four kinds of

people in the world. A man, a woman, a

woman who has a PhD and a man who dares

to marry the third type. So I wanted to

prove them wrong. So that's how like

gradually over time apart from my

day-to-day work on geopolitics

um advising the world on China and

Chinese companies going overseas um I've

spent the past uh more than a decade

writing along the topic of gender

economics and I'm very lucky because my

parents believe in the power of

education and they um let me took my

PhD. Do you think there might be a

future book from you

called a man's place is in the home?

>> Um I like the idea but um I want to

rephrase it to a man's place is wherever

he wishes because when we talk about

gender equality the idea is not to sort

of let women become the more senior um

species in gender than men. We want

equality and the idea of equality is not

that women should work and men should

stay home but um women can work um if

she chooses so and man can stay at home

if he chooses so. So

ultimately I believe the definition of

gender equality is not about the same

results but that we have the same access

and same opportunity. So men can cry,

men can wear pink. Um however you know

you can play Barbie dolls. Um we can

also become super men's as well.

>> I'm wearing pink. Did you see that? Did

[laughter] you see her? I'm still blue.

I think I change to pink one of these

days. Lovely. Thank you very much.

>> And I did not mean as a object

objectifying you.

>> At least I've not cried during this

interview. We have to bring it to a

close there. That's all we've got time

for. Ravi, it's been great to co-host

this with you. If your listeners, if

your audience want to follow Radio

Davos, they can find us on any podcast

app. They can also go to web.chodcast

or you'll find we have three weekly

podcasts. This one, Radio Davos, meet

the leader and agenda dialogues. [music]

Ravi, where can we find you? Robin,

that's been a fantastic conversation and

thank you Chen for a brilliant uh

presentation. We didn't talk enough of

concubines yet, but maybe we'll keep

that for the next uh session. This is

Ravi Velour for the Straits Times Asian

Insider podcast.

>> That a [music] great pleasure. Thank you

for having me today.

>> Thank you.