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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

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like Travis Walton at all.

>> You know who he is, right?

>> Of course I know who he is. Yeah. Yeah.

And I I believe him.

>> I do, too.

>> I mean, he he certainly seems

believable. I I'm you know people that

tell the same story for decades and

decades without any variation to it.

It's hard. I mean, you know, he I don't

know what happened, but all the people

that were with him during the time we're

talking about, for people just listening

now, talking about Travis Walton, who

was a man who in the 1970s was a logger

in Arizona, and he was uh allegedly, or

according to him, abducted by aliens.

And uh the people that he was with saw

him get hit by a beam of light. They

freaked out, took off. They they were

driving away and they were like, "We got

to go back and get him. We got to go

back and get him." They turned around,

went back and got him. tried to get him.

He was gone. The craft was gone and uh

he uh disappeared for five days and then

turned up and had this insane story.

>> Yeah. And then he's taken uh those tests

like uh

>> polygraph test.

>> Yeah. Polygraph tests like every year or

something like that or he takes them

regularly and he always passes them.

>> Well, so did the people that were with

him.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And they and I've seen

people uh interview the people that were

with him even just recently and they're

like, "Well, whatever." Regardless of

what I think about Travis as a person,

yeah, that happened.

>> Yeah. One of the guys actually got in a

fist fight with him the day of the

abduction.

>> The guy did not like him. Like they

hated each other. And then, you know,

they were young guys. And then he had to

testify and he was like, "It happened."

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Whatever it was. So yeah, I believe him

and his his interpretation has changed a

lot too through the years in not the the

facts the facts are all the same but his

interpretation of them like you know

were they because he thought they were

pretty malign like bad right he didn't

enjoy being abducted let's put it that

way

>> um but then over the years he said well

maybe something spiritual happened but I

don't know where he's at right now I

haven't seen a recent interview

>> there's an interesting one that's out

now with him and Bob Lazar sitting

across from each other

>> wow Yeah. In a diner. It's very weird.

And they're sitting there eating pie

talking about, you know, what they think

this whole thing is.

>> Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

>> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]

>> So, what's new in the the world of all

this?

>> Well, a lot. Right. So, the government

has been releasing UFO files since May

2026. And this is something that a lot

of people think is really important and

you know it's a form of disclosure. Uh

they're pushing the group that is

pushing this and happy that this is

happening. They're also wanting the

president to come out and say yeah we

there are these things. Um I saw JD

Vance on your show the other day that

was really interesting. He's of course I

I was interested in what he had to say.

you kind of pushed back on his what he

was talking about in terms of calling I

don't want to use that word the dword

right

>> demons why don't you want to use that

word

>> because I must take this opportunity now

to say that I am speaking on your

podcast as a private individual and I

don't represent my university talking

about this okay [laughter]

>> so I mean seriously look what happened

to him so he basically you know was

honest and said yeah I think that these

are you know demons Well, you know, that

was the headline, Joe, but when you

actually listen to what he had to say,

it was more complicated. And so, I

thought that uh he did a good job of of

uh talking about it with you. And and if

you want, we can talk about that, why he

would think that. He is Catholic. Um I'm

Catholic. I do history of Catholicism is

part of what I do. Um by the way, I'm a

professor of religious studies at uh

university. So, uh yeah. So, I've been

like looking at that. I've been doing

Catholic history my whole life. So I

started doing looking into UFO

experiences in 2012

and um yeah so lost is new are lots of

stuff is new. Okay.

>> I didn't think that he had a very

satisfying explanation as to why he

would say I think they are demons.

>> Yeah I can fill that out.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Or fill that in. Um all right. So

he's coming from the perspective of

Catholic theology. So in Catholic

theology there are generally if you're

looking at anomalous phenomena which

they do supernatural anomalous phenomena

a lot of weird stuff happens within the

history of religions. Okay. So they have

categories for understanding this stuff

and the categories include three

different um categories basically three

different types of things. Supernatural

things which they think can't be

explained and that they're like

miracles. um you know someone terminally

ill prays for a saint intercession and

then they become healed and doctors say

we can't figure that out. That's

supernatural. That's a miracle from God.

Okay. Uh that's one category. The other

category is the natural. So things that

are within nature, we can explain them.

You know, everybody's knows what a

natural kind of event is. Hurricanes and

things like that. Um, but there's an

there are events that cannot be

explained but don't merit supernatural,

the supernatural category. And those

events can, by the way, there's a word

for it and they call it the pternatural.

Okay, the pternatural. And this has been

a category that Catholics have had since

at least the medieval time period. And

because they're trying to figure out,

you know, if let's just talk about UFOs.

If UFOs are here now, most likely

they've been around for a long time. And

so whatever Cassix were seeing in the

medieval time period, they were they had

categories for trying to understand it

just like we're trying to have too. And

so they're they say uh the theologians

at the time said like Aquinas, Thomas

Aquinas, he said okay the pre-ternatural

these are events that happen and they're

either angelic like you know good things

like that or demonic which are fallen

angels or other things because God has

created other things other than you know

he's created the unseen and the seen

some things that we can't see. So in the

pre-ternatural, there happens to be

experiences that people have with things

that seem to be similar to what people

talk about when they're talking about

being abducted by UFOs. Um beings that

that appear and disappear. Uh beings

that can seemingly read your mind. So

this would be the theological category

that Catholics have called the

prednatural. And I think that's what uh

JD Vance was trying to get at. But why

would you call that a demon?

>> Okay, so this is a good question and

that's where I'm going to kind of like

help

>> push back on you and then you could push

back on me again. All right, [laughter]

so the the the fact is is that we don't

know. Okay, we don't know. So there's

analogous experiences that people have.

Now that I've been doing this since

2012, a long time, uh, it is beyond a

doubt that there's a pattern match

between people who have these

experiences and people who have demonic

experiences.

That's an analogy, but that doesn't

prove that they're identical.

>> When you say pattern match, what do you

mean?

>> Yeah. So, I'm talking about what people

actually experience. So, when people

have these experiences, what happens to

them? They report things like things

appearing and disappearing, luminous

lights, okay, light showing up, aerial

phenomena. They also report beings,

beings that can somehow read their

minds. They also report that sometimes

they feel like these beings put thoughts

in their minds. Okay, these are all

things that Catholics who know the

history would say, "Wow, that sounds

like this kind of situation." Um, does

that mean it is that situation? There's

no No, we can't say that it is. And

that's where your point is relevant.

Your point is that how do we know that

they're demons? We don't know that

they're demons. But it warrants an

investigation, I think, into the

similarities.

>> Okay. But when you think about demons,

most people think about evil. They think

about something that does horrible

things to you. possession, you know,

something that causes you to murder

people or something that wants to murder

you or something wants to steal your

soul. That doesn't seem at all like what

we're talking about with these UFO

experiences. What it seems like is

you're encountering something that has a

superior intelligence of superior

technology, something that's very

different that communicates

telepathically, but they don't seem to

have vicious intentions. So, I don't

understand the distinction. I understand

why you would call that a demon unless

you're just using that in this old

school term because the people that were

experiencing this supposedly

or assumably when we're talking about

ancient times and they didn't have words

for it and they didn't know what they

were experiencing, they would call that

a demon.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, this is a really good

comment and this is something that I'd

agree with you like in before 2016. I'd

say, "Yeah, you're right.

>> What changed?"

>> Okay, that I did a lot of research and

um and what I found was that

let's take an example because examples

are good. Uh Skinwalker Ranch. So, there

are a lot of people who are associated

with

looking into UFOs who are well known to

UFO people um who work at Skinwalker

Ranch. Okay. So, I learned about

Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013

or so, and I learned it from about it

from Gary, Gary Nolan. Um, all right.

So, he said he was talking to me about

it. He said, "Yeah, a lot of my friends

are working out there, and they want me

to go out there and do some study of

what's going on. There's anomalous

phenomena. Um, it they think it's

associated with UFOs because UFOs show

up and this and that." And I said, "Oh,

are you going to go out there?" And he

said, "No, I'm not going out there." And

so I I was like,"Well, okay, why?" And

he said, 'Because it's really negative,

the things that happen to people, they

they get something called the hitchhiker

effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is

when this scary stuff that's associated

with like a haunted place uh follows you

home,

>> right? I've heard of that before.

>> Yeah, the the hitchhiker effect. Um I

think it's called the hitchhiker

syndrome or something. And so I met a

lot of people who had this happen to

them who had had UFO experiences. So I

would say that no, not all UFO

experiences are like that. But enough of

them are like that for me not to ever

have one. and also to associate the

pre-ternatural. That's what I started to

understand that well the pre-ternatural

is still the best category that we have

for looking at this because not all

pre-ternatural phenomena even for

Catholics is negative right some of it's

actually really positive but the thing

the problem is is that human beings have

a hard time fig figuring out like you

know it could be deceptive this is

another thing where Gary Nolan comes in

um he was on Tucker Carlson I don't know

like four years ago or something And um

he said, and I've talked to him about

this too. Tucker asked him about,"Well,

what do these things, you know, what do

they say?" And he goes, "Oh, they lie.

They they're deceptive. They, you know,"

and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in

the race in terms of religion. Like he's

not, you know, affiliated with any

religion. So, you know,

>> when he said they lie, like what

specific examples does he have of them

lying?

>> Okay. So listen when we start to look at

this type of situation with you know

these experiences and so forth what a

Catholic would do like what a what a

Catholic priest say would do would be to

identify if there if there's deceit

happening to identify if there are

negative effects and you know because

there's criteria for looking at the

pre-ternatural and so a lot of things

that happen are when you have um you

know these abductions. Um,

which some people view as positive, but

some people don't. They don't like these

abductions. Um, so yeah, they'll say

things that aren't true. And

>> what

>> um I don't know. They'll say like, okay,

I'll take I'll take an example. I'm not

going to out any experiences that I

know, but I I know a lot. [laughter] So,

at this point, I've had like I don't

know about a thousand people talk to me

about their experiences. So one in

particular regularly gets prophetic

messages. Some of which come true, most

of which are not true. Okay, that means

when when you have one or two prophetic

messages given to you by an anomalous,

you know, being or whatnot and it comes

true, you're willing maybe to believe

it, right? Oh, this is, you know,

telling this is telling me good

information. Um but

then they start not to come true and

then if that person makes this public uh

that person then is you know people

associate them with falsehood and deceit

and that's not a positive thing.

>> Okay. But have you taken into

consideration that that this person

might be mentally ill?

>> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

>> This this idea that they're getting all

of these

like whatever it is visions. I mean, how

are they receiving this information? Are

they receiving it telepathically?

Like when you say prophetic?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So the So there are

different So you ask me what kinds of

people like what they would say, right?

When

>> Well, if the if these things are

deceiving them, so they have these

prophetic visions, right? How is how are

these visions

manifesting themselves in their mind?

Yeah.

>> Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing

an event happen?

>> Okay. So

there are uh there are a variety of ways

in which people receive this type of

information like prophetic information.

Um I would say that some people actually

see things and the beings like impart

telepathically like mind-to- mind

transmission something this is going to

happen [clears throat] and then they

believe it. Okay, this happens within

like angel events like Marian

apparitions. happens to, you know,

people. It happens to people in

abductions as well. And, you know, I I

mean, that's what happens to them. They

see things. They sometimes have visions

in their dreams. So, there's there are a

variety of ways that people

>> Let's stop right there. Visions in their

dreams could also just be dreams. Like,

how can they make a distinction between

just dreams like, "Oh, Godzilla was

chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran

into my cousin. We hid in his basement."

and then I woke up. Like that's just a

dream. That's not a prophecy. And if

they're having those dreams as well as

these

visionary dreams that they think are

inspired by

>> some entity,

>> how are they making the distinction

between the two of them if both of them

exist at the same time in the same

person's mind?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So within the culture of

within our culture, we tend to put

dreams in the same category. We say the

dream about Godzilla is like, you know,

all dreams are the same, right? They're

either bad dreams or good dreams are

neutral. Um, within there are other

cultures that distinguish different

types of dreams. And within the western

culture, there have been times when

people have distinguished different

types of dreams. Like say you take the

Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have

Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's

going to be big uh he's a prophet and he

has dreams where he's able to uh tell

the future and he's able to distinguish

between those dreams. So within certain

cultures even cultures today like

different religious cultures they have

distinctions uh the martu in Australia

uh they have you know they they talk

about the dream time. So, we're kind of

a culture that puts all dreams in the

same category. And granted, that's true.

Uh, in terms of discussing whether or

not people are mentally ill, Travis

Walton's not mentally ill,

>> right? But Travis Walton is not having

prophecies.

>> No, I know, but he's he's one that

doesn't. And there are others who do.

>> I understand. But we got to this place

because you were talking about beings

that deceive.

>> Yes. So, I'm saying that not all of them

deceive. But I'm saying that I'm trying

to explain.

>> I'm trying to ask you. Yes.

>> How are they deceiving?

>> Well, I just told you. So, they'll be

giving people information about the

future. Some of which is correct and

some of which is not.

>> Okay. So, how are they giving them this

information? They giving it to them

telepathically or is it coming to them

in a vision in a dream?

>> It's two very different things, right?

>> Yeah. But that it could be both

depending on the instance,

>> right? But if it's in a dream, how do

they know it's coming from this entity

and not just a dream? That's my point.

like saying they're being deceived.

>> Well, a lot of them won't make that

distinction. And so that's where you

need a

>> the abductees.

>> Yeah.

>> Won't make that distinction

>> because they've never had this happen to

them before. So, of course, they're

going to think this is true. But my

position is that be careful because we

don't know if it's true or if it's not,

>> right? But I mean, how are you making

the distinction between what is just

their imagination and them being

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>> Right? That's the good question. I don't

know.

>> So, how is Gary Nolan saying they lie?

>> Well, he's taking data and he's saying

that they're saying this, you know,

they're telling these people this

information and it's wrong information.

And so, he's not making, you know, he's

not trying to make a big claim. He's

just basically saying, you know, Tucker

asks him why, you know, what kind of

things are they saying? And he said,

well, they're being deceived, right?

They say deceitful things. And my point

that, by the way, getting back to the

original,

>> but it would be it's very frustrating.

Go ahead.

>> No, no, I know you're frustrated, but

the original question here is what is JD

Vance talking about when he's saying

these are demons? And I'm trying to

explain that he's referencing this

theological category that has been

around for a long time. And that is

actually quite useful in adjudicating

what's going on when people are having

these experiences. Now, I'm saying that

I'm not trying to propose that these are

like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't

want them to happen to me and I don't

wish them upon anyone. But some people

>> You wouldn't want to meet an alien.

Not the aliens that people seem to be

meeting. So,

>> which one would you like to meet?

>> Well, I don't know. I mean,

hypothetically, like, I'm not sure.

>> I like to put it out there. I'm down. If

they want to meet me, I'm down.

>> Okay.

>> I'd love to meet one.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not

scared.

>> They don't seem to steal you. They don't

take you away and never bring you back.

They just they just interact with you.

I'm down with that. I mean, we have to

distinguish between Yeah, go for it.

Meet an alien.

>> You don't want that. You wouldn't want

that.

>> Look, if

>> you are a person who writes books about

aliens.

>> Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat

about aliens. I write about the religion

about aliens.

>> Yes. But a lot of the subject matter has

to do with extraterrestrial intelligence

>> or whatever it is.

>> Yeah. We don't know what it is.

>> It might not be extraterrestrial. It

might be dimensional, right? Yeah. Or it

might be here, something that's of a

superior intellect that's been here all

along.

>> And it might be something within the

category of the pre-ternatural.

>> Right.

>> Yeah. So my point is that if it is if it

whatever it is, I you're right. I've

been studying it and I can say that if

those are the aliens, no, I don't want

to meet them. If the if they're the ones

that like people have come and told me

about and said, I wish this never

happened to me. um you know then no I

don't want to meet the

>> right but that's it's different people

right and different people have

different tolerances for experiences and

when someone says I wish this didn't

happen to me it's because they can't

handle it and whereas other people might

be able to handle it

>> um maybe but like look at the things

that the fighter pilots like uh David

Fraver and um

>> they don't seem to have a problem with

it like they they're they're not saying

I wish this never happened to me. No,

but they are saying that this looks

pretty dangerous. I wouldn't want it to.

First, I I hope that this does this

isn't an enemy technology. They're like,

if that's our if our enemies have this

technology,

>> it's done.

>> It's game over.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's

>> scary. Um and if it's not, then it's

definitely um something that we should

take notice of, right? So if there that

that's what's in our skies and there

have been reports of people there is an

Australian report of pilots who have

passed away because of this type of

thing like they died and so forth. So

how so um I can't actually remember what

it is but it's a it's a report of an

Australian uh young guy who was who

encountered something in the sky and um

he was never found again. And he was

just, you know, what happened? I don't

know. Uh, and

>> he he disappeared in the sky.

>> Yeah. And there are

>> with the jet.

>> I don't know if he disappeared with the

jet.

>> I wish you knew more about this story.

>> I know. I know. [laughter] Maybe someone

could get it up for us and we can look

at it. But it's a really famous It's a

really key. Yeah, it's a really famous

Australian report.

>> Here it is. Uh, it's 1978. 20-year-old

Australian pilot Frederick Valentique.

>> I think it's Valentic. Valentic took off

on a routine training flight over Bass

Strait. Everything seemed normal until

his radio transmissions began.

Valentique reported a strange aircraft

hovering above him with four bright

lights and metallic surfaces moving at

impossible speeds. Then came his final

chilling words. It's not an aircraft.

After that, he vanished completely. His

Cessna was never found despite extensive

searches and no trace of him was ever

recovered. Radar had detected another

object in the area but never interacted

with other flights. To this day, no one

knows if Valente crashed, got lost, or

encountered something far more

mysterious. Even decades later, this

remains one of aviation's most baffling

disappearances, and the last words of a

terrified pilot still haunt those who

hear them. So, there's one guy.

>> I don't know. You can go meet that one,

Joe. And you know what? I think that

>> maybe he's like in a cool place right

now.

>> All right. just chilling, having a good

time in another dimension, hanging out

with these creatures and they're

explaining to him the future of the

universe.

>> But you know that the thing about what I

do is I'm I have a lot of information

that people impart to me that is that I

can't actually talk about, right? And

that sadly that happens to people in

>> because they ask you not to.

>> Yeah. They say I need help with this or

this is my experience and I don't want

it public and so forth. I mean, um,

>> even without disclosing their name.

>> No, no, they I know who they are. And so

I've had people who are pilots, uh, talk

to me. Is this, by the way, coffee?

>> This is ice cold coffee.

>> How's it cold?

>> What?

>> It's ice cold.

>> I boiled it twice.

>> This coffee

>> I'll try to make it again.

>> I mean, I made it today. It's I made I

boiled the

>> ice cold.

>> That's crazy.

>> It's literally ice cold. That's weird.

>> I'll make it.

>> Are you sure?

>> Yeah. I I hit the button twice. I I

>> It definitely degrees.

>> It binged and everything.

>> Must must be broken. I mean, it's crazy

cold. It's like cold water.

>> I'll start it over. Be right back. How

>> weird. But here, I got more information.

Oh, [laughter] couple more descriptions

from that.

>> Maybe it's aliens. They're deceiving us.

They with Jaime's cold water. Um

7:06 p.m. Valentique contacted the

Melbourne air traffic controller Steve

Roby reporting an unidentified aircraft

trailing him at about 4,500 ft. Over the

next several minutes, he described a

long shiny metallic object with a green

light. The craft appeared to be orbiting

above him. It was moving at high speed

and playing some sort of game in quotes.

His engine became rough idling and

coughing. His final words, "That strange

aircraft is hovering on top of me again.

It's hovering and it's not an aircraft."

The transmission ended with 17 seconds

of metallic scraping or keying sounds,

then silence.

>> So, yeah. So this isn't um

[clears throat]

so pilots and families of pilots have

told me things similar to this. Not as

dramatic maybe.

>> Can you get another cup too? I poured

cold coffee in this.

>> So um similar. And so I guess I just you

know it looks pretty grim.

>> That guy that one.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And there are other

>> that's like the movie Close Encounters

of the Third Kind. I've always wondered

like how much of that movie was there's

so much of that that was based on

previous UFO encounters and and even

figures like Jack Valet. Jacqu Valet

plays an the French

>> scientist in that movie is based on

Jacqu Valet.

>> Yes.

>> And so and there's scenes where these

pilots show up that from like World War

I, you know, and they've been gone

forever and now they're back and they

haven't lost any time. I've always

wondered like how much of this is based

on stories and reports and folklore or

whatever the government knew.

>> Yeah, I think that it's it's based on

stories and things that they like

Jacques has heard and so forth. And by

the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive

too. So his you know his idea he spent

of course his whole life studying this

and he wrote a book called Messengers of

Deception.

>> Yeah, I think I read that one.

>> Yeah. So, you know, once you do

>> I read a bunch of his books.

>> John Keel John Keel doesn't have a good

idea about these things at all. Um,

thinks they're pretty nasty. Doesn't

want them in, you know, the Moth Man

Prophecy.

>> Yeah. So, he wrote that and that movie

is based on his life. Um, and he's he's

down on it. He's a doomer with respect

to aliens.

>> How so? What is his perspective?

>> Okay. I'm going to give it to you right

now. All right.

>> Okay. Okay, give everything right now.

>> All right, so he calls this it reminds

me of Catholicism in the sense that he

has a category for it. It's called the

sup uh basically the super spectrum.

Okay. And it's it's here with us now.

Just like you said, it's it's around us,

but you and I can't see it. But some

people do see it and some people

interact with it and have like it breaks

into their reality. And for those

people, he thinks that they're unlucky

because all the things that happen to

them like men in black show up. Um he

thinks things like the the beginning of

all religions is basically about someone

who had an interface with a parab being

like one of these uh parahumans in the

super spectrum. So it's kind of like an

invisible reality all around us

according to John Ke. Uh John Keiel was

a pal of of Jacques Valet's uh he's

passed away but his books are really

amazing and if you want to get an idea

about the super spectrum and the

phenomena you should watch that movie of

his called Moth Man Prophecies. It's

it's really good.

>> And so this super spectrum Yeah.

>> like what what does he think that is?

>> So he he thinks that it's a it's a like

a space all around us. It's been here

forever. It controls us. It controls

humanity because it sends things like he

thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks

the Virgin Mary apparitions are part of

it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So

any kind of woo thing um is there in the

super spectrum. And sometimes some

people have the ability to see what's in

the super spectrum and they're he thinks

they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are

part of the super spectrum. So he

doesn't make any kind of distinction

between the good things in it and the

bad things. He said they're all bad. If

there's one that appears to be good,

it's actually bad. So again, he started,

you know, he was kind of like a a

Charles Forte guy. So he started to get

a lot of these in, you know, these um

events and you study them and everything

like that. And uh over years he

developed a a theory that these were

nasty things and that they were like

even if they appeared good and that they

they be they were at the beginning of

all religions. All religions come from

the super spectrum. Um obviously not

that part about how it's like

Catholicism but you know religions tend

to have theological categories that talk

about things like the super spectrum. So

what Jacques talks about in his books is

it sounds very similar to you know his

control mechanism and uh is very similar

to John Ke's idea.

>> Well it seems like

just speculating but it seems like we're

dealing with a very limited framework

that we operate in that we as human

beings operate Do you want to take this

Jamie? Do you need this?

>> Okay. um that we operate

in this world of the senses that we

possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all

that, you know, smell. We we have these

senses for understanding what's around

us, but only those. And it's not capable

of detecting everything that is reality,

everything that is the universe,

everything that is from subatomic

particles to whatever the it is

that we haven't even discovered yet

that's all around us all the time. And

so if there is

the potential for other realms or other

dimensions and these things exist in

some sort of a space where they can

interact and and

traverse in between these dimensions and

interact with with us at will whenever

we can. We're kind of left in this

speculation space where when people have

these very novel and unique experiences

like Travis Walton and then we are

supposed to go, okay, did that happen?

It didn't happen to me, but is he

telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If

he is, well, let's see if he lies about

other things. Well, he doesn't seem to

lie. He's been around a long time.

Travis had been around for a long time

telling that story. Like almost 50 years

now, right? Like when was his

experience?

>> I thought it Yeah. 50 years. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Um you would think he would have a few

other fibs.

>> I agree. I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah.

>> If it was a lie, and I don't think it

is, but if it was, that's a big lie to

have only one. Yeah.

>> Only one crazy cockamy lie from 1970

whatever it was.

See, you're what you're doing is you're

this is part of their criteria for

assessing these kinds of events. Okay?

It's called, you know, taking time,

>> right?

>> So over time, so when a when an

anomalous event happens within like say

Christian culture or whatnot.

>> Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate

it.

>> The cold was all right, but it's like

it's it's crazy. It's nice cold.

>> That is weird. Yeah,

>> dude. Something's going on. Put your

finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's

cold like cold water.

>> I understand. I know. I know what

happened.

>> Oh, do you?

>> Yeah.

>> What happened?

>> You have to hit the start button to make

it boil.

>> I didn't hit the start button.

>> Oh, user [laughter] error.

>> But it beeped. I thought you

>> That did. That did beep because it

didn't It was turning off.

>> Okay. This is hot. Here we go.

[clears throat]

>> My bad.

Quiet as the French press. Where were

we?

Um

>> uh the categories.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. You were basically just

making a movement. A strategy. Uh yeah,

sure. Thank you.

>> Yeah. Like looking at some like I mean

that's my perspective on Bob Lazar.

>> You know Bob Lazar has been telling the

exact same story forever. I've had many

conversations with Bob. I've had dinner

with him. I've hung out with him a few

times. Dinner with him several times.

Hung out with him in the studio. He

showed us uh that most recent

documentary before it was released with

uh Luigi, the guy who made it with him.

I don't, you know, I I know a lot of

people that are full of I meet a

lot of people that are full of

I've had people sit here in front of me

and then somewhere in the conversation

I'm like, "Oh, this person's not being

honest. This is this is some they've got

an agenda. They're pushing some or

they're pretending they know some things

because it sounds good, but they don't

really know some things." I get real

suspicious of people. I'm not suspicious

of him. It's weird. You know, he's he's

obviously incredibly intelligent and

very wellstudied when it comes to

science, when it comes to um you know,

whatever it is, whether it's um

elements, particles, when you know, he

he he understands what he's talking

about in a very deep way. And when he's

explaining these experiences, when he

talks about this craft and his

experiences at S4, he seems to be

telling the truth. And then since then,

we we know first of all that no one knew

about S4 back then, but he did. He knew

where it was. He knew exactly where it

was. And he knew about the flights that

take people out there. He he had a a

total understanding of uh Los Alamos

Labs. I mean, he he went there. He knew

the people that worked there. He knew

how to get around the building. When

George Knapp took him there, he he knew

everything about the facility. Yet, they

claimed that he never worked there. And

then they found him on the employee

roster.

>> So, he did work there. So, they they

lied and they tried to cover up. Why

would they lie and say that he didn't

work there?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, probably because he was involved

in some that they wanted to keep

secret.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

>> There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob

Lazar story. And then when you see some

of the footage that was released

particularly after the New York Times

story of 2017,

>> the footage that's released mirrors the

way he describes this craft operating.

>> Yeah.

>> And so how would he he guessed correctly

in 1989?

>> Those are all good points. So yeah, I

told you last time I was on here that

Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book

um told me he that he was the real deal.

Even though I had people who, you know,

Eric Davis and you know, telling me,

"No, Diana, this guy's No, no, I believe

Tyler. So everything that you say I

agree with. Yeah, I don't know. I mean,

>> you're always going to have people when

you have a fantastic story like Bob

Lazar story, you're always going to have

people that want to say that the guy's

full of that there's something

wrong, he's lying, this is not true,

it's fake.

>> But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person

who might know, right?

>> So, he's a physicist who studies this

and even briefs Congress on. But, no, so

I don't know. I I tend to when Tyler

tells me things and now that he's

everything he said kind of has come

true, I believe him, you know, I believe

that is true.

>> But if Bob Bazar is telling the truth,

it's so disturbing the idea that there's

a group of humans that operate in our

government that have information that

the general public does not have and

that they're the gatekeepers of this

information. and they've determined for

whatever reason that either it's not

wise to tell people or it wouldn't

benefit them to tell people. Like

whatever it is, I think it's a crime

against humanity. I I think if you're a

person that knows for a fact that

there's something here other than us

that either visits us or exists amongst

us or travels here from another

dimension, I think you have an

obligation to tell people.

>> But what if it's not that? What if it's

actually something we've created and we

don't want anybody to know about it and

Lazar happened to find out and that's

why we don't want you know I mean think

about it from the perspective of people

who are trying to keep Americans safe.

So just to push back a bit

>> okay go ahead.

>> You know what if that's it?

>> So if that's the case why would they

bring a guy in to tell them how does

this work?

>> Show us how this works because that was

his job.

>> Oh yeah. They brought him in and said,

"Tell us how this works."

>> And like, and he was like, "What are you

talking about? This is ours. It has an

American flag sticker on it." Like, "Do

you know how it works? Why are you

asking me how it works? This seems kind

of crazy."

That's not what you do if you have

super advanced technology. What you do

is you bring in people to improve it and

make it better. You don't bring in

people and say, "How does it work?"

>> Yeah. Okay. Wait, I have a couple of

comments about that.

>> Okay.

>> So, when I first started, I was I was

aware that people I wasn't aware as much

as I should be, [laughter] but I was

aware that people in my position, you

know, who were basically just doing like

academic work on the UFO belief, the

rising UFO belief might have people come

and give me disinformation.

>> 100%. And I I have the same situation.

>> Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be

that you're talking about discernment

like we have to be super discerning

about who's you know our BS meter has to

like be really

>> well working or working well.

>> Okay. So but

>> the person who took me out to the desert

right with Gary during that time to an

alleged crash site which you know

Jacques then goes out there. Um, he

basically also wants Gary to figure out

this debris. And so I'm thinking we

obviously don't know what we have here.

If he's if it's legit, it could Okay, so

here are my comments about what you just

told me about Lazar. Either they're

setting up this situation where they're

going to have someone like me and Gary

who are like they're trying to backineer

this, right? and were saying that

publicly um without any kind of like

knowledge that it could be disinfo and

then they have Lazar who we're going to

plant then they do this like with

benefits and stuff they plant stuff for

>> Yeah. Yeah. You know benefits um

>> the guy who uh what he had stuff planted

is in his computer. Do you not know

about him?

>> No. What is this called?

>> Oh, it's called Project Beta. Um this is

a this is a book a friend of mine wrote

about um I can't remember. Yeah. So, um

>> Oh, Paul Benovitz. I've heard his name

before.

>> Yeah. You should read this because this

is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who

>> So, Benovitz believed that he had

intercepted communications from alien

spacecraft and discovered a secret

underground facility called Dulce Base.

Duly Dulce Base Dolce.

>> Doli. Is that how you say it?

>> I'd say Dolce, but

>> Dolce U base managed by aliens in

cooperation with the US government. and

his claims appeared in the popular press

in the early 1980s. According to some

sources, benefits was the target of a

government disinformation campaign that

ultimately led to his psychiatric

hospitalization.

Author Greg Valdez proposes that

benefits was targeted for his

investigation of cattle mutilations.

Valdez argues the m mutilations were a

government testing program looking at

the after effects of radiation from

1967's

project gas buggy in which an

underground atomic device was detonated

just 21 miles southwest of Doli. They

were testing the cattle to avoid

panicking the public.

>> Okay, so this um

>> the problem with that story is cattle

mutilations

still go on. This is like completely not

accurate.

>> This is just a brief Wikipedia about

there's probably way more to the story

and

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know Dodie? Yeah.

Dodie. You know Dodie, right? The uh

>> the guy who went they they placed

misinformation on his computer so that

he believed that he was um

>> they placed it on his computer.

>> Yeah, they placed it on his computer.

Really? They went into his house when he

wasn't there and put it on there.

>> And what did they put on his computer?

they put on all this information about

um a like that he was in touch with

these aliens. So they they basically

cultivated his belief that he was in

touch with aliens. They did that

purposefully and Dodie um Dod's first

name. Oh gosh, I can't

>> Dodie.

>> No. Um he's really famous within

Euphology because he's a misin guy.

>> So, but back to

>> he's a misinfo guy purposefully.

>> Yeah. intentionally placing

misinformation out into the public about

UFOs, which is a thing. It does.

>> Is he still alive?

>> Yeah, he's still alive.

>> And that's what he does for sure.

>> Richard, he used to Yeah, Richard.

Richard. Yeah, he for sure does that.

>> Um,

>> how do you know he does that?

>> What do you mean? Everybody,

>> what do you mean? What do you mean

>> that? I'm surprised you don't know that

he does that.

>> I'm speaking sometimes when I talk I'm

speaking for the entire public that

probably doesn't know what we're talking

about. And I think it's probably good

that we fill them in.

>> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So, Richard

Dodie is has come out and said this is

what he does and I know people who know

him like the entire group in you know

the invisible college people with how

and they all know who he is.

>> Okay.

>> And uh Kit offered to introduce him to

me by the way Kate Green. So, and I and

by the way all of these people are

people who work on the used to work on

the program ATIP and so forth

>> uh to study UFOs. But my point though

here in talking about this was what if

Lazar was a person like me and Gary who

was being given information were

credible, right? He's not so credible,

but like you know he's he's this person

that's been given information and placed

out there so that and he's just on the

edge of credibility just so you know

he's credible but then he's not credible

so that he could be taken down if

necessary. That's how they get this

information out there. Now, who am I

talking about? They So, what I'm trying

to say is that what I've observed is

that the government isn't unified in

this whole UFO thing. They're fighting

against each other. I try to stay out of

their crosshairs. Frankly, what they're

doing though is that every time somebody

comes out and says, you know, here are

the new UFO files. I'm studying them and

so forth, then they get taken out by

like counter intelligence. So it's like

intelligence and counter intelligence.

So that it's really confusing. The end

result is total confusion and you really

have to have an ability like to

understand like your discernment has to

be welldeveloped.

>> Right? So I believe that I believe that

there is disinformation and deception. I

think that's a great strategy. If you

want to make something look ridiculous,

you take truth and then you attach a

bunch of fantastic, ridiculous claims to

that truth. And so that it dismisses all

of it, right? Because it's all in the

same category and it's all easily

debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy

that also said that, so this is

nonsense. Right.

>> That's exactly right. Uh Tyler used to

say, we're we hide truth in a circle of

confusion.

>> Yeah.

which makes sense if they're trying to

>> Yeah, that's what they do, right? I

mean, I don't know anymore. Like today,

like Jacques at one point, uh, many

years ago decided that the field of

euphology was so confusing that he

wanted to go back before the industrial

revolution and do UFOs from a long time

ago. And he wrote Wonders in the Sky,

>> all about that. stopped at like I think

it was like 1860 or something like that,

>> right?

>> And so he did that and I feel like I've

done that too. Like I started that way

actually. Um and I wasn't looking for

UFOs. So I saw you know so in a sense I

understand that move because

>> when you say you weren't looking for

UFOs, what were you looking for? Oh,

well my first the first part of my

academic career was about looking at

souls from purgatory and Catholic things

like you know what Catholics thought

about things that they experienced like

angel contact events. Um and that's when

I started to take a log of these aerial

phenomena. I did not know what they

were. And so historically you can see it

all over the place in the records that

aren't digitized. So there are a lot of

records like people that say, "Oh, we

have, you know, AI has everything of

human all of human knowledge." No. Have

they never been to an archive? An

archive is a really old library. There's

a bunch of stuff there that's not

digitized and that's still human

knowledge.

>> And so what were you looking for?

>> Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my

book on purgatory. I was looking I was

trying to find out why purgatory was a

thing for Catholics for many, many

years. And then after the 1960s, people

rarely um talked about it as much. So,

by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from

people about this because Catholics who

do do devotions to souls in purgatory

for souls in purgatory will say, "No, we

still do this, Diana. I know that." But

the emphasis like Catholic churches used

to have a special place in the church

for these devotions. They we don't have

that here. And so, I wanted to know what

happened. And so what I did was I spent

10 years going through records and

archives all over the place. And uh and

I I found an answer to that. But I also

found a bunch of aerial phenomena that

people didn't know, you know, they were

like looking up the sky too back then.

And when they saw something in the sky,

they couldn't like place. Well, what is

this? They'd interpreted as like a soul

from purgatory. You know, we need to

pray that soul back into purgatory

because, you know, sometimes these

things would harass people. They'd come

down like orbs and harass people and

they just assumed it was like a bad

spirit or something like that.

>> So, I took all of this down because I

thought it was really strange and I

didn't I didn't want to put it in my

book.

>> Um, but I wanted to do something with it

at some point. Uh, so when I I had not I

didn't believe in UFOs. I had never

thought about UFOs, but I showed the log

to a friend after my purgatory book was

published and he said, "Oh, this looks

like Stephen Spielberg films." And I

thought he was crazy. So that's how I

started studying UFOs.

>> Oh

>> yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was

already doing that. Jacques was one of

the first people I actually wrote a hard

letter to, sent it through the mail to

him and uh that's how I met him.

>> So Jock's books, what's with what is

interesting is these old stories because

the old stories that go back to 1700s

and the 1800s, they mirror these UFO

encounters.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's what my

work did. Yeah,

>> it's a very similar pattern which is

also strange because

if you think about human beings, the

exponential increase in technological

ability that we have just from the 1800s

to today, far superior technology. But

wouldn't would you assume that UFOs

would also have this exponential

increase in their technological ability?

>> Yeah, definitely. But yet the stories

seem very similar, which is weird,

right? Because if it's the same kind of

craft and the same kind of experiences

and the same kind of

>> like wouldn't they get better at it?

Like isn't there don't they have the

same ability to improve?

>> They might be better at it. They might

be better at it. We just are not good at

ascertaining if they have gotten better

at it. But so what if and this is kind

of what I've been exploring recently.

What if the you know our growth in

technology is pretty amazing. What if

the only way they can actually interface

with us in any super meaningful way

that's not creepy, right? What if it's

through AI? What if that so if religion

was a way for us to communicate with

non-human intelligences that kind of

evolved in different places, right? It's

like a technology itself, right?

Religion becomes these ways. You know,

if you look around and you see I noticed

that you had some cool Buddhist statues

out there. All right. So, if you look

around at religion, what is it that

people in religion do? A lot of them

pray in certain ways. Well, like why are

they doing that? what is prayer anyway?

Um some of the uh so you can see that

there's something that they're trying to

do. They're trying to interact contact

there's like a contact with these and so

what if AI all of a sudden is a

different form of contact. Um and I'll

give you a reason why I think this way

or that I'm speculating about it. Um

when I started to ask the people who

should know like Louzando and you know

the and before that Tyler and you know

um how put off and uh people like that

tell me what best if you were to

describe what it is we're dealing with

what best is the description and they

would always point me in the direction

of science fiction and they would say

read this read that and I was like

science fiction okay and I'd read it and

it would inevitably point to like a

technology that helps interface humans

with it. So that it's not us interfacing

because perhaps you remember you talked

about those faculties that you know

human beings have these faculties for

understanding reality but we can't

understand reality in its full reality

right we can't do that because we're

constrained by the ways in which we

perceive things those are the perceptual

faculties

>> um what if AI becomes a perceptual

faculty for us and we're able then to

you know interact with it so perhaps it

has has evolved and it's helped us

evolve too.

>> So that's what I'm trying to say. That

was a long answer to your to your

comment.

>> So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us

interact with these things

>> communicate.

>> Okay.

Um so as far as what the government

knows and then deception

>> Yeah.

>> Why do you think that they don't

disclose all the information?

My personal opinion.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Okay. So, this is nothing that I can

point to. Of course, I can't. You know,

there's no source for it.

>> Um, my personal opinion is because this

is uh above government. It's not theirs

to disclose. The government can't

disclose something that's not theirs to

disclose.

>> And what what do you mean by that? Um, I

mean that there's probably a group of

people that um

have this information or have parts of

the information. I don't even know if

one person has the whole story. It's

super compartmentalized. But my

intuition is that it's well, we know

that there are parts of it that are so

highly classified, right? We know that.

Mhm.

>> And so, um, yeah, it's like, you know,

they call presidents short- timerrs and

so forth. They're they're not read in

quote unquote to the to the program,

>> right?

>> So, I would What if it's like it's been

around for a long time and the people

who know about it have been around for a

long time, too? What if that's the case?

So, after after I um after I published

American Cosmic in 2019, I met other

people. So, you know, I met people who

indicated to me that they just basically

wanted me to not write anything else

about this stuff. They just were like,

"Why don't you just focus on what you

you know, your your Catholic stuff and

just like don't don't do this."

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>> And who did that?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Some people that I had met.

So um they they're people that are

associated with the government in the in

the fact that they're part of

intelligence communities and you know so

I was interested in what they had to say

and to me what they didn't tell me

anything Joe so I'm not going to tell

any secrets or anything that I don't

have them but um they they indicated to

me that

yeah this is this is like nobody's going

to know about

So people like uh

yeah so that's that's what I that

happened after American Cosmic part of

that went into encounters but not

>> so they what how did they

express this to you that they don't

think that you should be talking about

this?

>> Well they they didn't express it that

way. They just said that my time would

be better spent looking into other

aspects of uh religion. Did you say why?

>> Of course. I wanted to know.

>> And what did they say to that?

>> Well,

they didn't really say they didn't

really answer that question, but I guess

you could say that my experience with

them was my answer. My experience with

them was that

um

this was something that people weren't

going to know about and that these

secrets wouldn't be told. So you like

they're essentially saying to you,

you're wasting your time

>> pretty much. Yeah.

>> We're not going to tell anybody. You're

not going to get any more information.

What's out there is out there and that's

it.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> H what's your opinion like when you know

one of the things I'm I assume you saw

the age of disclosure the documentary.

>> Yeah, definitely. One of the things that

I thought was really uh interesting and

made sense in the age of disclosure was

this thought that if there are these

hidden programs

they uh have essentially misappropriated

funds and lied to Congress in order to

fund these things and all these things

are huge crimes and if they don't have

amnesty they're never going to disclose.

This is like Lou Alzando talked about or

all these different people talked about

this like the only way you're ever going

to get this information is by

giving some sort of mass amnesty to all

these people that are involved in these

programs so that they never have to

worry about being prosecuted. My problem

with that is when I hear something like

that and you're talking about

misappropriation of funds, you're

talking about lying to Congress, you're

talking about enormous amounts of money

that are involved in these programs.

Where did that money go? And did that

money all go to those programs or all

those really ethical people involved? Or

did a bunch of people get rich

bullshitting about this stuff? And is

that why they're calling for amnesty so

that they don't have to worry about

being prosecuted for stealing money? And

that's a lot of this, you know,

obfuscating, a lot of this confusion, a

lot of this misinformation is because

there's a lot of people that are in deep

if this gets disclosed.

So basically they're in deep if

they if the thing that gets disclosed is

that they've been stealing money.

>> Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete

total autonomy, you you get an enormous

amount of money and you're working on

these programs, you you know, no one

knows where this money is going. And we

have a problem with that already, right?

Like we have a problem with the Pentagon

never passes budgets. Where' the money

go?

You know, that's like part of the issue.

What is this, Jamie?

>> Uh, long hidden UFO information at the

center of Trump push uh to free former

officials. Former employees can now

share information

>> with Arrow or the Purse Task Force

without fear of violating agreements.

So, this is new.

>> Yes, last week.

>> Oh, interesting. So, no one's officially

come forward as far as

>> Okay, that's but look how it says that

there. Scroll back up. It says without

violating agreements. That's not the

same thing I'm talking about.

>> It's not exactly, but this they have

NDAs and it's uh

>> right. That's another issue. But what

that doesn't it doesn't exonerate them

from lying to Congress or

misappropriating misappropriating funds.

That's part of the problem is that if

they have these

programs that are hidden and there's no

congressional oversight, there's no they

don't have to be audited. If

in all these in any government program

that has no oversight, you're going to

have waste and you're probably going to

have fraud and you're probably going to

have a bunch of people that are, you

know, essentially beyond reproach. They

have so much power and no oversight at

all. Like, put a little bit over here,

put a little bit over there, a little

bit of this, a little bit of that. Next

thing you know, these people are wealthy

for some reason that you can't explain.

Like, look what's going on with

Congress, with insider trading or people

that are making $170,000 a year worth

hundreds of millions of dollars, and no

one can explain why.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You got you have to imagine

that these people would also be tempted

to do that if they were involved in

these programs. So even if these

programs are real, let's say it, let's

say the research, the back engineering

research costs a billion dollars. Let's

make it say it cost three billion.

Where's that money going? Where's it all

going? Where'd it go?

>> You know, that's part of the problem

with having no oversight.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> No auditing, no oversight, and a bunch

of people that have

>> complete ability to hide anything

they're doing,

>> including

>> what they do with the money.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And so if they've been doing that for

decades,

who knows how much fraud is involved.

>> Yeah. You have to assume like these are

human beings and human beings if they

have that level of power

>> and that level of secrecy

>> and no oversight at all.

And also they're working with defense

contractors. They're working like you

know

>> overse offshore accounts. There's a lot

of weird goes on.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It could

be that. Do you think it is?

>> Yes.

>> Really?

>> Yes.

>> You think I think that's a factor?

>> Okay. Hey. All right.

>> I think that's a major factor in this

whole thing.

>> All right. So,

>> I think that's the that's the I think

that is probably the reason why you have

these calls for amnesty

because if you if you're talking about

amnesty like amnesty for what you guys

do something, what' you do?

Misappropriation of funds, lying to

Congress. Okay. So, you you don't want

to be in trouble for misappropriating

money and you don't want to be in

trouble for lying to Congress. What if

that does that include all the fraud

that potentially could have taken place?

>> And I'm not accusing anyone of fraud. I

don't I don't know anything. This is

pure tinfoil hat. Let's just talk

That's all this is.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you think it's just

basically a big like almost like a Ponzi

scheme.

>> I think that has to be an aspect of it

because that's an aspect of it in almost

all aspects of government.

>> I hear what you're saying. I guess uh

>> just think of the problem that was

exposed with Doge

>> with the NOS's where you find out that

there's literally billions of dollars

gets distributed and there's no record

of it. There's no receipts.

>> The bottom of that article here,

>> uh during the same event, former Air

Force intelligence officer Grush renewed

his allegations that the secret UAP

programs had operated outside normal

congressional oversight, calling it a

real fraud, waste, and abuse issue.

There it is. and claiming his

investigation uncovered slush funds to

the tune of billions of dollars perom

for these activities. The Pentagon has

disputed Gush's central claims and Arrow

has said its investigations found no

evidence, no verified evidence of

extraterrestrial technology or credible

evidence that the government has

secretly recovered or reverse engineered

craft of nonhuman origin. But yet there

he has talked about programs that he has

been read in on that are back

engineering programs.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. So like is it is it

slush fun? Yeah. To call it a slush fund

I think is really an interesting you

know term because that indicates that

that they're not doing anything right.

>> Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate

that they are doing something, but

they're also profiting wildly off of

this something that they're doing

because they don't have any oversight,

right? Which is when you get creepy

people that have incredible power like

that. That's just normal. Absolute power

corrupts. Absolutely. What's more

absolute power than you're

>> You have massive amounts of money, a

blank check, and

>> you're also you're in the super

secret top secret group. Yeah,

>> you're in the club of the people that

know the wink and the nod and you you're

going into these vaults in the

middle of the mountain and you're

looking at an alien spacecraft and

you've got bodies that are in

formaldahhide or whatever the

they're doing with them. You know, you

would think those guys could do whatever

the they want.

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> They're humans.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And they're men.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> They're men that are probably very

ambitious and wealthy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. and they want to be more

wealthy and they got all this money

coming in and they're working on these

programs and then they can occasionally

show you some stuff. Look, this is what

we've discovered. This is what we've

figured out. This is what we can apply

to military technology.

>> Okay, so maybe Okay, so maybe that's it.

>> Pure speculation, right? No accusations.

I'm just saying if you had to look at it

from the least charitable perspective,

you have to say that's probably an

aspect of what we're dealing with. And

that seemed to me when I watched Age of

Disclosure from a cynical perspective,

I'm like, what is this? What is this

request for amnesty? What's what's the

Amnesty is a weird thing to say, you

know, like if you're People get

suspicious when you have amnesty?

>> Mhm.

>> Why do you want amnesty?

>> Yeah.

>> You're worried about like, are they

really going to prosecute people that

have misappropriated funds and lied to

Congress because they have alien

spacecrafts?

Is that really what Congress is going to

do now? They're going to go after these

people and say, "I look, I know you

finally did tell us that we have been

visited, that we have these down alien

crafts, but we're going to put you in

jail because you didn't tell us before

and because you lied to Congress and you

use these funds to backineer these

crafts."

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Does that really make sense that they

would put these people in jail for these

top secret government programs?

>> No. No.

>> Yeah,

>> I agree. Um,

>> I just think if you just factor in

people,

>> factor in people and blank checks,

>> I always say someone's get it's not like

these are the most benign altruistic

people that they like they're super

charitable and they only want to do the

right thing for humanity and they're

they're very comfortable with their

meager government salary.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Probably not. Right.

>> Right. probably when you think about

human nature and people when they have

access to money especially that kind of

money that's crazy money

>> all right so if I can offer my like

speculation totally speculative

>> totally okay

>> I like I like this kind of talk

>> okay okay so remember that I start out

not caring about UFOs at all not

believing nothing like that right

>> just kind of doing my boring Catholic

scholarship stuff right boring well yeah

I didn't think so but you know geeky

stuff Right. Right.

>> Okay. Not interested in that scene.

All of a sudden become realize that

there's this historical continuity,

right, in the records

>> and there's physical evidence.

>> Yeah. Yeah. There's physical evidence

>> which is important for people to know

that maybe if they've never heard this

subject before and this is the first

podcast they've listened to. When we're

talking about Gary Nolan and some of the

things they've found at these crash

sites, we're talking about alloys that

you can't make here.

>> Yeah. There there's something about them

where they're layered at an atomic

level. It's there's some weird to

them.

>> That's right. And so I try to keep

myself

autonomous from the euphology narrative

either proposed by the government. By

the way, a lot of people are like it's

government sponsored. There's a lot of

government sponsored stuff out there

that you're getting. None of my stuff is

government sponsored. like I did this

totally autonomously on my own. Still do

completely, you know, I don't have a

publicist, you know, I'm not like out

there doing it like that. Um, that said,

I've met a lot of people and I've seen a

lot of things now since 2012 about the

topic.

>> And so, if I were to speculate about it,

and let me just describe some of the

things that that come into my brain

every once in a while when I'm thinking

about it, I'm like, okay. Um, you know

how Eric Weinstein talks about like he

would know the smart people, he would

know the physicists who would be on this

case, right? He would know these guys

because he knows physics. He's super

intelligent,

>> you know? Um,

>> but I don't think he does know them. And

part of the reason I say that is because

this is in 2014 or so, so a long time

ago. um when I'm you know when you're

doing something for so long and you're

in this community of people and you you

can't make stuff up like stuff happens

you were like that really happened and

one of the things that happened was that

I got to see that there were some you

know laboratories associated with the

government that people couldn't get into

you know it was like you couldn't go to

those and the people that worked there

were the best of the best like the the

laser people the people who knew lasers

and who, you know, they were better than

anybody at Yale. They were better than

anybody at Harvard or Stanford or

anything like that. They were the best.

Um, through knowing [snorts] me, Gary

got to go there. So, I have a witness,

you know, and so because they were

cultivating him. They were trying to

figure out if he could actually help

with with figuring out what this was.

So, those things are things that I noted

and I, you know, kept in the my file in

my brain. Right. Okay. Well, that's

weird. Uh there uh think about people

like Harold Malgrim, right? So, you

know, he had been a um he's a person who

is uh was an official to adviser to a

couple different presidents in the

capacity of military. So, super high

level clearance and everything like

that. He had been recruited, he was a

physicist at Cornell. He'd been

recruited when he was 27. So, this

happens. So, people do get taken into

these I don't know what you'd call them,

programs or whatnot, and they do work

and they have these clearances and

they're hidden just like um they're

hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job

titles and so forth, so people wouldn't

think. I see people online now saying,

"Oh, that person doesn't have that

clearance because they had this job."

How do you know? Like, seriously, how do

you know that? because the government is

really good at hiding these kinds of

things. So over the years, that was a

long time ago when this happened to me,

2014, I started to form an idea, you

know, and it wasn't just that, it was

other types of of things that I learned

that there's something going on for

sure. And it is what they're saying, but

maybe it's not I don't know what they're

reverse engineering, if it's anomalous,

you know, from another planet or what it

is. Uh, I do know that they're they're

doing something and they've been doing

it and they're probably going to

continue to do it and that I don't think

they're going to share.

>> Yeah. And why would they? Especially if

it affects national defense.

>> And so part of what's happening now, you

know, with uh rich people getting into

this and trying to get the people in the

program to come out because that's what

that looks like when David Gush talks

about that. I'm thinking they're just

trying to get these people in the