Oh my god, Eddie Hearn. What a guy.

There's very few people. No, I'm going

to change that. I've never met someone

as neurotically obsessed with success

and with winning and with accomplishing

things and with living a life in

constant forward motion as my next guest

Eddie Han. And it's remarkable because

when you unpack the reasons for that

obsession and that dedication to being

more and achieving more,

there's quite a fragile, vulnerable,

insecure story. That's something I've

noticed with a lot of my guests.

And it often makes me think that the

most successful amongst us aren't

necessarily choosing to be.

Something's happened to them that's left

them with no choice. Eddie Han is one of

the most notorious sports promoters in

the world. He's the king of boxing in

this country. He is known for his no

contact Twitter page, which I'm sure a

lot of you have seen.

But what I wanted to do when I sat down

with Eddie Hern was to get underneath to

get underneath the external sort of

braggadocious loud promoter side of him

and to find out even in the case of

someone like Eddie who is loud, who is

successful, who is ambitious, who is a

promoter, are the same things true for

him that are true for you, the

insecurities, the vulnerabilities, the

mental health issues, and how much does

he really understand himself. My

conversation with Eddie was incredibly

enlightening,

but it also wasn't that surprising.

So, without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the D of CEO. I

hope nobody is listening, but if you

are, then please keep this to yourself.

[Music]

you've done a ton of interviews,

especially over the last couple of

weeks, and there's this really

consistent theme that I felt in all of

the interviews I watched. I watched you

at Cambridge, the High Performance

podcast, loads of them. And um and then

before we came uh started filming today,

I had a chat with Frank and he fully

grasped on you. No, what he said to me,

which I which was also consistent with

these interviews, is that you are

relentless. And he was telling me he's

he's had some um I probably shouldn't

say this, but he was telling me he's

started having this uh is it night owl

or

nightness? Night cuz Eddie will text me

in the middle of the night and he went

I'll tell you one thing about Eddie. He

is relentless.

You're what 40

41

41 years old. What's made you that

relentless

at 41 years old to the point where

you're you're uh pastoring your

colleagues at 3:00 a.m. in the morning?

I don't know really. Um I think when I

when I did the book, it was like it was

quite a good um sort of counseling

session with myself because I wasn't

really great at school. I wasn't

particularly a hard worker at school. I

loved the pound note always. And when I

wrote the book, it just I I started

writing about my childhood and what it

was like growing up and how I was

molded. And I think a lot of it comes

down to the fact that I love to win. And

I'm a Why did you love to win?

I don't know. Because with my dad,

that's what we did. So when we played

cricket, when we played football, when

we played table tennis, when we sparred

with each other, it was like

for me growing up, you weren't, you

know, I would come back from a match,

say I played cricket, and and he would

go to me and actually my mom was the

same, and he would say to me, "How many

runs did you get today, son?"

And I would say, "Oh, no, four. Ah,

useless. Come on, next time knock in a

50." Right? It was never, oh well, well

done, son. You know, you took part.

That's what really matters. That they

taught me taking part is completely and

utterly irrelevant. You win. And

ultimately, sport is how I was brought

up. I was brought up on the foundations

of sport, the lessons of sport, the

winning, the losing, you know, the

highs, the lows, but always taught that

winning was everything. So, and I'm a

failed athlete, you know. I think any

kid growing up would love to be a

sportsman. I played cricket at a very

good level, but I I was never good

enough at anything. So, this is the next

best thing. But I think if you're not

trying to win in life, and win

it means something different to

everybody. Success means something

different to everybody. Some people view

success as being able to get their pay

packet on a weekend. you know, be able

to, you know, spend time with her family

and have enough food on the, you know,

make enough money to have food on the

table and make sure everything's okay at

home and and be happy, you know, and

have a happy life with no no stress or

no drama. That's success to a lot of

people, but people's interpretation of

success is very different. And you know,

for me, I I I still don't know why

I I I I do I know why I do this, but

like you say, I I love it. I guess

that's what it comes down to. A passion

for what you do. And I don't know what

the passion is. Is it the passion that I

love the sport of boxing? Is it the

passion that I want to succeed against,

you know, and be bigger than my dad? I

think that's a big part of it as well.

Or is it just that I love to win? Or is

it that I'm a bit sick in the head?

Maybe all of them. the sick in the head

point. I want to play with that idea a

little bit. Um I I write I I wrote in my

book actually we have the same

publisher. I wrote in my book that the

thing that invalidates you when you're

younger becomes the thing you seek

validation from when you're older. And

what I meant by that is like in my

childhood because we didn't have money

um and I was this black kid in a school

of 1500 white kids. Everything that we

didn't have became the things that I

chased when I was older or the thing

that made me feel somewhat invalid

sometimes when I was a kid. Like you're

saying about your dad saying, "Oh, you

you lost today.

became the thing that I would seek

validation from as as a as an adult. And

I wondered if that resonated with you at

all. I mean like

well I had a different background. I

mean my dad was poor

became rich and I was born.

So I' I've said before it's not like

when when you talk about generational

wealth. We didn't have generational

wealth. Um I had a dad who was from

Dagnham was from a council estate. His

dad was a bus driver. And then I grew up

in this sort of neuvo world where this

bloke had made his money and he was you

I take the mickey out of him. I suppose

he was a bit of a chav,

you know, he was like from Dagnum and

all of a sudden he's got Ferraris and

big cars and we used to have a white

limo and a black limo that would drive

like the snooker players around and the

fighters around and I was horrible. I

was obnoxious. Imagine like a 14, 15

year old kid hanging around with Eubank

and Naz and then you're in a limo with

your mates going up to London or to

Romford for a night out. I mean, I'll

look back and just cringe. But mine was

different, you know, and and I guess

when it comes down to it and, you know,

again, from the book and speaking and

speaking to people like Frank Lampard,

he went to my school. Um, he was in the

year above me. At my school, I was Barry

Hearn's son and Frank Lampard was Frank

Lampard's son. You know, his dad played

for West Ham. He was and it's a

different kind of drive if you can make

it flow in the right way. You know, when

you're talking about sort of mindset and

and and hustle where all of a sudden I

think so many people with successful

parents

end up just doing okay, you know,

but how do you go beyond that? How do

you outperform everything that he done?

And and I will and I feel like I've done

that in many ways, but I will never be

able to outperform the fact that he came

from nothing.

My friends are my friend is in a very

similar position. you. If I said my

friend's name, you'd know the guy. His

dad is a multi-billionaire. I know you

know him because I've seen you with him

before actually in New York. But um his

dad is a multi-billionaire and he grew

up with living in the shadow

and his dad was the same. And I had a

conversation with him and he said um it

was I was always trying to be better

than my dad. He is now a billionaire

himself of his own doing.

Um but it's just it's fascinating that

and his dad sounds very similar to what

your dad sounds where his dad was tough

on him. tough on him.

I think they're I think they're tough on

you because they don't want you to be

that spoiled kid. I mean, you always

want to um spoil your kids, you know.

You want to give them the great Even

now, you know, I got two daughters. I

love to spoil. I work hard so I can give

them a great life, but I just want them

to understand

manners, respect, and discipline. These

are the three most important things. And

he would make sure that I would

understand that even by having me

working, you know, giving me a clout

every now and again, you know, trying to

keep because I it must have been

frustrating for him because I was

probably all the things that he resented

when he was growing up, you know, the

rich kid. Oh, with a with parents who

had got big house and cars and and I

would have hated me at school, you know,

but he would have looked at me and

that's why he was so disciplined with me

and I was in his slipstream growing up.

So I would sit, you know, we're here

now. That's that was my house

over there. So I he would get home from

work if he was in the country, you know,

he would always go out and give me a

game of football or cricket and then he

would go in the office all night on the

phone and I would have dinner and I

would just sit in the office. You know,

I might have a ball just throwing up in

the air, but I would some subconsciously

listen to the arguments and, you know,

him losing his temper and and just

listen, not because I wanted to learn,

just because I was there. And you're

you're talking there about the sacrifice

of his success which is one of them as

you've highlighted is less time with

your family. You are relentless. Um

everybody says that. What is the the

cost of being a relentless person? You

have to be incredibly selfish. You have

to, you know, for for me, family is the

most important thing, but I have to be

brutally honest and say I don't let even

family get in the way of things that I

have to do, you know, and that that can

make you an [ __ ] and it can make you

sound terrible, but I just don't know

any way around it. There is no way you

can be the perfect husband or the

perfect father and run a successful

business or, you know, be a, you know,

a relentless operator. It's impossible

because I know because I try to balance

both. But when you're flying back from

America from a show and you land at 7:00

in the morning and then you go to

Manchester for a press conference and

then you come home and you just make it

to pick him up from school and then you

get back and they say, "Dad, dad, let's

go over to park and you're just

absolutely on empty and your phone's

going and you're trying to do another

deal and you know, you're pushing the

swing and you're going like this trying

to send a message at the same time. It's

impossible." You know, listen, I know

cuz sometimes my my eldest daughter is

old enough to know, "Dad, please get off

the phone."

And that's that kills me because that's

that's bad to hear, you know? I'm like,

"Okay, okay."

But then 30 seconds later, I'm back just

having a look down because it's a

lifestyle, you know, and it's impossible

to be great at anything without making

sacrifices. You know, it doesn't matter

if you're a fighter, if you're a

sportsman. You speak to all successful

people, you can't be everything. It's

impossible, you know, and and but what

you don't want to do is you don't want

to disregard your obligations, your

family obligations, because they are

extremely important. But you also need a

wife or a partner who's understanding

enough to say, "This is what I know what

he's like. He won't stop." And that's

why when Frank talks about 3:00 a.m.,

4:00 a.m., that's because a lot of the

time I'm sort of making up for the hour

or two that I've lost out playing with

the kids. So I'll put them to sleep.

They'll go to sleep at 9, half 9, you

know, chill out with a wife for an hour,

she'll go to sleep and then I'm up. And

now with the growth in America, it means

that at 4:00 p.m. 5:00 p.m. the West

Coast wakes up.

So I can't go to bed. I can't disappear

when it gets to 11 a.m. or on the West

Coast or or midday on the West Coast

because they want to speak to me and we

want to do business. I am uh much

earlier in my career maybe I know 15

years earlier in my career and um I've

struggled with romantic love for the

very same reason that for the last

decade I've like slept in the office

multiple weekends I've been obsessed um

I would basically sacrifice everything

and there became this moment in my life

where I think it was maybe the day that

someone tried to buy the company and I

thought about what I'd spend it on and I

remember going home and I swear on my

mother's life I went on right move and

auto trader at the same I had two tabs

open and I'm like the lamb

no that's that's that that always

follows the Lamborghini. So I was

looking at this Lamborghini and this

mansion in the countryside and then I

thought if I buy these things I'm

trading like this purpose I have this

job this you know for for this

Lamborghini and this mansion and it felt

really really empty and then I thought

but Steve you know when you were 18 and

you were broke and you had no money

18-year-old Steve said wrote in your

diary this is why it's called the driver

that you wanted the sports car the

million before you were 25 this was what

we did it for and then it threw my head

into this like confusion it's like if if

if it's not that if that's going to make

me feel empty. They call it like um gold

medal depression where Michael Phelps

won all the medals and then got

depressed. Um then what's it all for?

And and then I thought and then also

when does it all end? Like when does it

end? Well, it doesn't end because and

actually you you're always searching.

This is this is a problem and something

you have to be careful of because when

you

are trying to succeed and when you're

trying to become great actually the

great people

they never feel content with achievement

and I'm very much like that. Frank

Lampard again going back to him he said

that when he won the Champions League

he's always dreamed of winning the

Champions League and he stood there with

a trophy and he felt nothing. I mean, he

felt happy, but definitely not content.

Definitely not I've cracked it.

That might go back to the sickness, you

know, that we talked about earlier. And

when we talk about sickness, I mean, not

probably not medically sick, but sick in

the head a little bit to a point where I

get it all the time.

You know, we say that,

you know, we wanted to do, you know,

when when AJ turned pro, we wanted him

to be the world heavyweight champion.

You know, he won that.

Great. We was in the ring after jumping

up and down. As soon as we got out of

the ring the Yeah. And then it's like,

okay, we want to do something. You know,

we got the Klitschko fight. Okay. You go

through at 90,000 at Wembley. You stand

there, everyone that was at the event

tells you it's the greatest sporting

occasion they've ever been to.

How do you know?

Uh,

at the time, amazing in the ring,

amazing, you know, and then not even the

day after. It's I I never I never go out

really and I never drink really after a

show because that's probably, you know,

depressed is the wrong word, but you I

go back, you know, I finish the media

obligations 2 3:00 in the morning, go

back to the hotel, and that is when I'll

sit there, get into bed, and then

obviously you can't sleep because the

buzz and the adrenaline, and that's when

you just feel a little bit low and empty

is that okay, it's over. Same with what

you talk about with Phelps. It's the

highs versus the lows. You can't just

experience the highs and then be happy

with the lows. So, you want more and

more and more and more. And I I'm my I'm

my own biggest critic and I'm also very

pessimistic, which is strange to a lot

of people, but I kind of use it to play

tricks on myself to keep myself driven.

So, when I do something or when I've

planned something, I always say to

myself, there's going to be problems.

It's I think it's going to go wrong. I

doubt this will happen. You know, I

don't know why I do it, but it just

helps me to battle away to overcome

everything to get to the place. And then

when I achieve something which others

might think is great, I say to myself,

that's nothing. You got a long way to

go. Because I'm scared of sitting back,

you know, with the the cigar on the

beach and going, I've cracked it. You

can't touch me. You know, and we got to

a position with UK boxing where, you

know, we are virtually untouchable, but

I just don't want to be that guy who

takes the foot off the gas. I want to

bang every single nail in the coffin,

you know, and then move on to another

market and another market and another

market. But you do get the the worry

with that mindset is you may look back

when you're 80 or 90 and go, "Wow, you

know, look at everything you've done.

You never really enjoyed it, did you? I

mean, I love what I do, but you probably

should savor it a little bit more than

you do." But again, it goes back to that

mindset of being so driven. You want the

next It's a drug. Success is a drug. But

you got to be careful that it doesn't

turn you into an [ __ ] at the same

time because how many successful people

do you know? Absolute [ __ ]

[ __ ] Horrible. Rude. No manners.

Obnoxious.

What's it done? Do you ever find moments

where you think, "Fuck, I was just an

[ __ ] then."

I think that it's just time for people,

you know, you end up being It's not that

you can turn into that if if you're not

one, but

when you become busy, it's a bit like,

you know, when people say that, "Oh,

he's changed. Of course he's changed,

his life's changed, you know, his

responsibilities changed, his business

has changed. You can't expect him to say

the same people. And you know when you

have a a group of friends when you all

come out of school and sort of you're

going from there and you're talking

every day and the ones that sort of grow

the friendships are still as strong but

you just don't talk to each other every

week every day because you got your own

life. You got your own vision. You got

your own plans.

But you still go for lunch and you get

on better than ever and you but and it's

the ones that say oh he's not oh he's

don't talk to us anymore. I ain't got

time mate. But this is goes back to the

sacrifices. You know, if I fall out with

friends

because of what I'm trying to achieve in

my own personal life and my business,

so be it. I know again that that sounds,

you know, and it's not about being a bad

friend or a bad person, but you you

can't you can't worry about other people

as long as you're a good person, as long

as you do the right thing. the fact that

you don't have time at the moment,

but that's when you people might

perceive you to be an [ __ ] You know,

you talked a little bit about there

about being 80 years old and looking

back on your life. I'm going to just

play a little uh a little game with you.

So, we've got to imagine um imagine that

what day of the week was I think it's

Tuesday today. Tuesday.

So, Friday you find out that Friday is

your last day on Earth. My question is,

and really put yourself there, right?

So, Friday's your last day on Earth. all

the fights coming up, AJ Fury, it's all

all falls away. What do you immediately

regret?

That's actually something that I thought

about quite a lot. And the reason was is

um about

4 months ago, my granddad passed away.

He was 93. Great life, you know. And

when I went to see him in his last

couple of days, you know, and he

obviously didn't look great. And I

looked at him, I thought, "Wow, life's

crazy, isn't it?" I said, "Everything

that you've done in your life

and now you're laying here about to

leave.

So when you get experiences like that,

it just you have to be reminded

sometimes that this is a game. Life is a

game. We're only on borrowed time,

right? And you can never take yourself

too seriously. I think that's one thing

I do well is I love to have a laugh and

I don't take myself too seriously. Um,

in answer to your question,

since that moment, I've been thinking a

lot about if I, you know, if I went now,

do you look back and say, I couldn't

have done any more. I had a great time.

And I think the answer is yes. I mean,

we could all we can all do better. But

my dad is an inspiration that respect

because he's the kind of person that

couldn't have squeezed one more drop out

of his life, right? So, I'm quite

envious of that. He's 73 and who knows

how long he's going to last. But I do

feel like it's very important that when

you get to whatever stage when God says

that's enough for you that you are able

to look back and say I couldn't have

done anymore. And that scares me a

little bit because

I want to know exactly what when you

think about more and you're saying I

could have done more.

You find out that this Friday is your

last day. What are the things where you

think do you know what? Because I think

that the the the that moment like the

the deathbed moment puts everything in

perspective.

It does. But I think in that moment,

your emotions are very different to when

you're well and fit and on the hustle

and just, you know, so you don't get a

chance to reflect on that kind of moment

until you're there. And the obvious

reflection at that point is, I wish I

would have spent more time with my

family,

you know. I wish I would have been less

focused probably on work. But I'm not a

believer in, you know, the thoughts then

are not the thoughts now. And you have

to act on the moment. You can't live

your life saying, "Well, blind me, when

I'm on my deathbed, you might look back

and because I don't I don't think you

can plan like that." You have to do

what's in your heart. You have to do

what feels right. And what feels right

for me right now is this.

What what might feel right then is ah,

do you know what? Should have probably

missed a few trips really and just done

the school run a little bit more. and

and and I know that, you know, you you

have to you really have to understand

where you are in life. This is great for

your mental health as well and your

sanity. You got to be honest with

yourself and and you got to understand

the situation. I know exactly where I'm

at, what I'm thinking, what I'm doing,

the sacrifices I'm making, what I could

do better at, what I you know, but I'm

okay with it. You know, I'm you. You

can't get the perfect balance. But as

long as you understand what is going on

and you're not deluded, you're not

stubborn. Ah, don't worry about I'm not

that, you know, I know I know I need to

do more at home. I know I need to do

more school runs. I know I need to be

less short with the wife sometimes,

but can you there's a couple of points

here that I think are super interesting.

So, um, that deathbed moment, what I

think it's doing, and I've never been

there. you've not been there. But what I

think it's doing is it's telling you

what actually mattered

because to some degree I think that it's

it's like with that hindsight you can

say [ __ ] that person criticizing my hair

or my cut or this none of that [ __ ]

ever mattered. All of that was trivial.

The things that mattered were as you say

like my niece or my you know so I think

that's what that moment

but that comes over time. How old are

you now?

27.

Okay. You're a baby right? When I was

27,

what what people thought of me really

mattered,

you know? I mean, listen, I've been

working out for 35 years just to stay

fat,

you know, like the barnets going a

little bit. I could not give a monkeys

now at your age. Oh, mate, I was, you

know, I might have been Jack the lad. I

might have been turning up that, but

deep down, you know, it only take one of

the boys to say, you know, tell you

what, Ed, you're putting on a bit of

timber there. Or look, look, your barn

is creeping back. What? What you mean?

What you mean? Now I go, "Yeah, mate. I

know. Listen, sign of the times, isn't

it?" So being comfortable with yourself

is the best feeling in life, you know,

is the best feeling in life. And I think

when I was growing up at school, I

wasn't subconsciously. I think I had a

massive chip on my shoulder. And that's

why I was a bit of a bit of a knob to be

to be quite honest. But when you get

comfortable with yourself, it's a

beautiful thing in life. It really is.

you know, when you wake up in the

morning and you've always got to try for

me and look good and feel good and be

the best version of yourself you can be,

but you do get to a stage and that's

actually when you become really powerful

and effective.

You know, it's the same kind of thing,

you know, when you're young and you're

courting or you're looking for a young

lady to show you some interest. You

know, when you try really hard and

you're sort of on edge and you be bit,

oh, don't don't really like my hair or

oh god, you know, you know the ones that

walk into the bar and just go, oh mate,

you know, I know I'm not the best, but

I, you know, they're the ones that

everybody gravitates to. Anyone with a

smile on their face is always creates so

much more energy and flow than the

people that that don't. And and that's

about being comfortable in yourself. So,

I think that it's very difficult with

everything you've achieved at your age

to just know where you're going or what

you're doing. I'm done.

Do you know what I mean? I'm I'm

married. I've got two kids. I've got

business. I'm struggling to balance

everything, you know, but I'm here, you

know? I'm not going to roll back the the

years and do this and do that. And I

know exactly what I'm doing. I know

exactly where I'm at. I know exactly

what I'm focusing on. And that life

starts to become a lot easier then at at

your age. You know, I went to work. I

left college after my A levels. I went

to work for five years in sports

management companies and event

management companies. I was a sports

agent on the PGA tour in America. I had

no idea where I was going. I mean I I

just wanted to be successful. I wanted

to earn money, you know, but the mindset

of of or the change in mindset over the

years is unbelievable. I always say to

people, what matters to you now, you

will look back on when you get to my age

and go, can't believe I even used to

worry about stuff like that. And that

that's important because I I feel like

people that are very successful, you

know, you did it at a very young age.

Very impressive because

I think it takes time. Now, when I did

the Cambridge uh talk the other day, you

know, you're sitting down with all these

young I mean, I'm I'm I'm street smart

and I can sell, right? These people are

like Yeah, but I'm jealous of Buffins. I

used to take the mickey out of Buffins.

I'm jealous of Bofins now. I find

intellectual people fascinating. I love

talking to him and just trying to learn

and absorb. And I'm sitting in this room

of people and they're listening to me

and I'm thinking,

you know, firstly, you must be listening

to me thinking this B, who is he? What

is he a car used car dealer or something

like that? And then, but I'm I'm talking

around. I'm saying to you, what what do

you want to do? Well, uh, you know what?

what is success to you? They've not got

a clue. And it's not because they're at

Oxford and they're they're deluded. It's

because that's just it's very difficult

at that age to understand. I don't

believe anyone at 40 looks back at what

they were thinking at 20 and said,

"Yeah, I had this plan. I'm there now

and this is what I always wanted to do."

So, it takes time to develop a passion

for something. And that that is the

that's a key word, passion, because we

when we talk about being relentless and

we talk about this work ethic, you can

only have it if you love what you do and

if you have a passion for what you do. I

don't think you can trick yourself.

You can, but you can't be as good. You

know,

you you know, you said um earlier that

you you feel like you're self-aware of

like the the lack of balance in your

life because you've got this real

relentless streak, you got this family

and you're self-aware of it. Do you

think, as much as you're aware of it, do

you think deep inside you, you really

have a choice?

Or do you think you're being somewhat

dragged by your own ambition? Because

this is what I find fascinating about

people, successful people, is it tends

to be the case that like me, I'm aware I

need to see my niece more,

but I just sometimes don't feel like I

have I'm fully in control.

Well, I I do it because it's what I want

to do ultimately. I mean, I do have an

obligation, you know. I do have

responsibilities. I'm talking about in

the workplace.

You know, we got a fantastic team here,

but ultimately

when we announcing a show, when we're

doing a press conference, when we do,

they want me.

They want their flesh.

So, they roll me out and I'm just like,

I'm like a traveling salesman. Right,

Eddie? We're announcing this show today.

Off you go. Right, here we go. Back in a

car. Here we go. You know what? So, but

I do it because I enjoy it, because I

love it, because I have an obligation to

do it for the business that my father

created.

And I've my responsibility now is to

take that to the next level. You know,

he built this from the foundations from

nothing. I'm not going to let it just

fizzle out as he goes into his 80s. I

want to take it to the next level. But

the difference is is I don't have to do

this, you know? I'm not looking at this

saying it's my way out. Um, you know, I

just if I just make some money, I can,

you know, I can buy the Lamborghini. I

could have done that at 21.

But imagine the Eddie that that doesn't

do this. Imagine what how he

But the same thing that was that that

was me at school.

That was the kid telling the teachers, I

don't have to do that, you know. And

that can't that runs shivers down me.

give me some advice on um because you've

got you're married

and I'm I genuinely genuinely no it

sounds crazy but I'm like you've managed

to crack it seems like because you're

married um crack the balance of being

relentless on one end but then managing

to find a person or to at least keep

them happy to some degree spoke to yeah

I've not spoke to but I genuinely I

started to think over the the last

couple years I'm like how am I going to

find someone that understands that I

want to send text messages at 4 a.m.

morning and that I sometimes don't want

to talk to them and that when I'm sat

next to them, I'll be quiet for 7 hours

because I've just got an email that I'm

thinking about. And so I'm like, is it

the you have to find the right person?

Is it something you say to them?

I think they need to know you. They need

to know what drives you. I mean, if you

had a conversation with my wife and you

said, "What what is he like?" You know,

she'd just go, "Well, he's just in his

own world, isn't he?" I mean, the amount

of times, you know, that moment where

you get home and they go, "Right, I need

to talk to you." And you go into the the

kitchen, they go right now, uh,

Isabella, you know, I spoke to her

teacher today and um, what were

I'm gone, right? So, I'm I'm going and

I'm thinking that contract's got to be

at 9:00 p.m., you know, blah blah blah.

And she goes to me, what did I say? And

I go, the school, what? And she just she

but it's not like and and she'll go,

listen, we have blazing rounds, you

know, you're you know, you're so

selfish. you all you care about is work,

you know, but you again, it just gets to

a point where you just have to

understand

life. You just nothing's perfect, you

know. You got two people that love each

other. I've known her since, you know,

my 20ies. I' I've I've changed. We've

both changed a lot over the years, but

we've changed together and we've grown

together and this is what I do, you

know, and I would have had that

conversation with her at some point many

years ago to the point saying, "Look,

nothing's going to get in my way. I

don't mean to sound horrible and I love

you and you know, I want to spend the

rest of my life with you, but you have

to understand me. You have to understand

that this is extremely important to me."

not don't say this is the most important

thing to me cuz that'll get you bang in

trouble but this is extremely important

to me and I think because she's been

around my family because she knows how

important it is to us she kind of just

gets it you know and there'll be times

where she'll say did I hear you on the

phone last night at 5:00 in the morning

I'll say yeah you know we was doing the

Canelo deal or you know AJ deal or and

she'll just look at me and go but over

time you know I think the the most

difficult thing is the early stages of

dating because it's very difficult for a

woman. They they want your attention.

You know, people people sometimes think

that women want

uh you know, money and you know, the

nice house and of course everybody does,

but they don't really. They want your

attention and they want your company and

they want your time. And there are three

things that are very difficult to do

when you live that kind of lifestyle.

So, you do have to, you know, we'll do I

I'll race back from somewhere and I'll

say, "Right, you know, tonight, let's go

out for dinner and I'll be knackered. I

don't, you know, hopefully she don't

listen to this. I really don't want to

go for dinner tonight." But you have to

do it. And that's what my dad has kind

of always taught me, son, you got to do,

you got to resp

people. My mom, he's from from the East

End. She's old school. As far as they're

concerned, the man goes out and puts the

bread on the table and the wife looks

after the man.

Old old old world that don't exist

anymore.

But every morning or every night, my mom

will iron my dad a shirt

and she will put it on his on the door

for him in the morning.

If your if your wife,

right, say I say we we brought her in

this room, we sat her down with God and

we said, "Listen, you can decide what

happens next with Eddie and his career,

right? So you can we can bring it to an

end and he'll spend more time with you

or what do you reckon she would do? She

could make the decision on you your

relentlessness and your career. How do

you honestly think she would make that

decision?

I think I think she because she knows

how important it is to me. I think she

would say no he he he needs to do it. He

has to do it. But I think the I think

the hope is that there is an end place

or an end goal. For me you feel

Yeah. But for me, I don't

whe whether in 20 years time we we play

this back. I don't think I want to be

70, you know, maybe even 60, 70, 80

doing this, dealing with problems. And

listen, maybe I won't even make it that

long. But for me, I definitely have the

mindset of not I want to get in and get

out, but I I do want to get that moment

where I do sit on the beach with a

cigar. Don't even smoke cigars, but you

know, and a whiskey. Don't even like

whiskey, but you know, I can imagine the

picture at least. And go, do you know

what? We've done it. We done well. But

walking away is the thing that at the

moment would kill me, you know, to be

able imagine when you wrap up shop and,

you know, this might be I mean, for us,

we've gone from being a family business,

you know, to having four employees to

now all of a sudden having hundreds of

employees in in multiple offices around

the world. We're being approached by for

for investment, for takeover, for IPOs.

And now we're sort of at that stage of

growth where I don't know. I just see I

see I see a faster exit strategy than my

dad. At least that's what I'm selling to

her. You know, just give me a few more

years. Just give me a few more years.

But I do want to go and enjoy because I

can't say I'm not enjoying myself cuz I

love what I do. But I do want that

moment to just, you know, but it's the

walking away. You know, how do you just

one day turn around and you might sell

the business or, you know, you might

float and you take a more of a backseat

role. That's difficult because we make

our own decisions. We're a hands-on

business. That's what we love. We've

we've turned down investment and

opportunities for years because we don't

want to I don't want to bore the

directors. We we make the decisions and

we do what we want to do because we love

what we we do. But when you see such

growth and you see such interest and you

see the opportunity for, you know, a a

much vaster wealth being quite honest,

do you want it? And if you want it,

what's the exit strategy? Because at the

moment the exit strategy for our family

is from the day you start working from

the day you die you work your nuts off

every single day. I mean it's not

particularly advanced is it that that

strategy but that's just what we've

always done.

Mental health big topic you know

especially over the last 10 years I

think if you go back well 10 years ago

and you said the word mental health

people think people are crazy right they

think like you know run away from that

person. But now it's become like the

opposite. It's like, oh, someone's got,

you know, it's become something of,

well, you give someone affection and you

take care of them because the stigma's

somewhat changed. We know the stats

around male mental health. Have you ever

suffered from any sort of mental health

um predicaments?

This is my favorite day of the week.

My all-time favorite flavor of Hule,

berry. I went up to Hule's office in

Tring last week and had another tour

around their headquarters and pretty

amazing. They have this massive massive

gym as you would you would uh you would

expect. But the thing that I didn't

realize about Hule was that it's also a

vegan product and also I didn't realize

their commitments to sustainability. Now

there's tons of reasons why you might

choose to become a hooligan like me.

I've been drinking Hu for about 3 years,

long before they um decided to help me

with the podcast and to sponsor us. But

I never realized that element of it. The

reason I've always consumed Hu is

because of convenience, right? Um some

people might consume it because it's

nutritionally complete. Um which I guess

is part of the reason I did as well. And

then some people might consume it

because it's affordable. But for me, I

never because I'm not a vegan. I never

realized that it was vegan. I never

realized their efforts around

sustainability. And I never realized it

was also gluten-free because again

that's not a problem I have. And so on

this week's episode of the podcast,

that's the key message that I wanted to

get across is that if you are vegan, and

a lot of people don't know this, a lot

of my friends didn't know this. Hu is

vegan too. Um, and this is my all-time

favorite flavor, which is berry. Um, for

me, it tastes great. Um, 20 g of

protein. I'm currently trying to get in

better shape as you I hope some of you

have been able to notice if you've seen

the podcast on YouTube if you're

listening on YouTube right now. Um yeah,

and I love it and this is why it's so

awesome to work with a brand that you

believe in because their impact on the

environment is low. They are good for

you nutritionally. It's super convenient

and if you have the berry one, it tastes

unbelievable. So, what a what a win-win

win-win for me it was working with Hu

because um I get to tell you guys about

something that I would swear by and I

don't have to be dishonest with you. Um

if you look at my fridge right now,

maybe you should take a look in it. It's

pretty much all he I'm not advocating to

have a hu only diet, but that kind of

speaks to the nature of my life and how

busy I am and and how many meals I was

missing before I became a hu. Have you

ever suffered from any sort of mental

health um predicaments?

I don't think so. No. I mean, I think

again depression's one of those things a

bit like yoga and breathing and stuff we

were talking about earlier. If you would

have said to me 10 years ago, listen,

maybe even five or six years ago, so and

so suffering from depression.

If if your perception of that person is,

well, he's young, he's good-looking,

he's healthy, he's rich, he's

successful,

how can he be struggling from

depression? What a load of rubbish. And

actually, it takes the older generation

even longer. I mean, I think my dad's

only just accepted now that it exists

with people because his mentality is,

"What?

Dust yourself down? What's the matter

with you?" M

and it's that's you know that that's

wrong

because it is real you know and it does

exist. Um I don't you know have I had

days where I've been feeling incredibly

down. Yeah. But surely that's normal.

You know I don't I don't see myself

suffering from that. And I think

I think mental health problems and

depression I think it comes from

overthinking.

You know my um my brother-in-law is

hilarious. He just I've never known

anyone who just overthinks and worries

about stuff. You know, you're going to

be having a conversation go I've just

been thinking about that, you know, and

and if that happens, I was thinking, you

know, next year you could be there and

and then from there it's like, whoa,

whoa, whoa, what are you doing?

Just when you're struggling mentally,

focus on the short term. Focus on day by

day. I think sometimes people look at

and this is the same for business. When

you have a project or a long-term plan,

there are so many short-term obstacles

and goals to overcome to get there.

That's why how many times you spoke to

someone got this idea, you know, I'm

going to be doing this and that and that

and then a month later you've not even

heard about it. Oh, well, what happened

was we we launched and then, you know,

the council came in or the regulation

board came in and and this other company

tried to do this and and and it just

it's like, no, because you didn't focus

on the short-term goals. All you were

worried about was the house and the

Lamborghini and you weren't prepared to

to tick the boxes to get there. So,

sometimes when I'm a little bit off or,

you know, might be traveling a lot and

the equilibrium's gone and it's like,

okay, so I'm just going to write down

what I'm going to do today. And it can

be really menial stuff. Could be walk

the dog, you know, could be finalize a

contract. Could be go to the gym. Could

be go and get some food, you know, in

from MS or whatever just to say and and

I would tick everyone off. Really?

Yeah. And I would say at the end of the

day, I would look at it and I would go

done.

And that's the momentum back. That

that's where you get the feeling of

accomplishment even even on tiny things

to say, okay, I'm moving in the right

direction. For me, that that is a big

help for me is short-term focus.

Because once you start worrying about

what's going to happen next week or next

month or next year, you can't control.

No. And you're going to start driving

yourself crazy.

You've just got to say, "Okay, this is

what I need to do today and tomorrow I

need to do the same thing." And then

before you know it,

you'll start making positive changes.

You'll start achieving because you know

what what you've set the targets you've

set yourself, you are achieving.

You're a bit of a philosopher. I don't

know if you realize because um there's a

great famous philosopher that says uh

depression is too much of the past and

anxiety is too much thinking too much

about the future and he says the cure is

more now and that's pretty much what

you've described

that is true because you can't worry

about things that that may or may not

happen

and you can't change things that have

already happened

what you can do is change what is

happening today and it's simple to do

that again in in the book I ran a

marathon one marathon right because my

dad ran loads and he took the mick out

of me I had to do it and it's the same

kind of thing You start the marathon,

you think 26 miles? If you start

thinking about running 26 miles. I mean,

I it did give me anxiety attacks to

start with. I was thinking that's just

ridiculous. I've never done more than

10k. And then you train and you train

and you train and you build and then

every mile marker is an obstacle.

You start off, you think 26 miles by me.

Then you go 1 2 3 4 5 and you're you're

okay. And then and then you're 12 13 you

think I've done half. M

and you get to 18, 19, you think, I

can't do it anymore. And you think, just

get to 20, get to 20, 21. And when you

see that 20 mile marker, you know, and

then you get to 20 and you go, do you

know what? I've still got 6 milesi. I

can't do it. And you go 21, 22, 23. And

then when it's all over, you can look

back. But if you start worrying about

the future, you're going to gas out.

You're not going to make it.

Do you feel that anxiety sometimes in

those big moments where you've got, you

know, something's coming up and you just

can't stop thinking about it? um in my

business it was actually the first you

know I heard this term mental health and

I think at the start I thought nah it's

not real

and then a couple of years in I a lot of

people I started hearing you know

friends of mine and stuff going through

really bad things I'm like I think it's

real and then I got to this point where

I was almost scared to admit that it

would be real because I I almost felt

like if I admitted it was real then I'm

like welcoming the possibility into

myself of like labeling myself something

and then there was one moment where I

had this really big decision to make in

New York and I'm laying in the hot tub

in Manchester

and I just got really anxious and I was

anxious for about 4 days up until the

point of the decision and then I thought

that's probably the closest I've come to

some kind of mental health predicament

is that real an anxious feeling that I

couldn't shake.

I think social media is horrendous as

well. Like I I've made the decision in

the last couple of years year

specifically to start ignoring and

blocking out a lot of um

You're a celebrity now.

Yeah, isn't it? when I was coming

through, when I was overturning the

system, the support was unreal. And I

was really feeding off that. I mean,

anyone that says, you know, they're not

affected by criticism or they they're

not worried about I mean, that's a load

of rubbish. Of course, you don't like

people criticizing you. And by the way,

you love people patting you on the back

and championing you. Of course, it's

it's natural.

What things get to you, though?

Stuff that people like the personal

stuff couldn't give a couldn't give a

monkeys about. It's more about the

it's more about people when you're

putting the work in something and you're

so passionate about something and you're

actually working for the good of might

be the sport or whatever. It's the

people that just, you know, presume see

you completely differently. So that's

the frustration. But over the last

couple of years, I just started thinking

to myself, what are you I was having a

conversation with my old man. My old

man's on Twitter, right? And he phoned

me up. He go having an argument with

this geyser on Twitter, right? And he

was going on about the snooker and the

format. And I said to him, I'm like,

"Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." I said,

"Are you serious?" I said, "Who is who

is this boat?" I said, "You imagine

someone stopping you on the street and

having having a pop at you about the

snooker format, but it also it's it's

the platform that made us what we are.

It it got us to the top, you know, the

interaction with the fans and the

understanding of their mindset. So, we

can't just, you know, but it's become a

toxic place. It really has, you know,

and I worry for I worry for my kids, you

know, sometimes one of them be on TikTok

and she'll put a dance out and someone

will come back and say, you know, I

don't know, uh, you're ugly, you look

really, you're st, you know, and it's

like we never had that in our day. I

mean, we never even had a phone. You

know, if someone didn't like you, they

might say something in the playground,

but that's about it. So, we live in a

world of criticism, and I think it's a

negativity.

But that's what I said to my old man. I

said, "You imagine like these people,

they're all doing it all day. I'll put a

post out and you it's the same ones all

the time." And I think, you know, and

even um to the point where someone

posted my phone number on Twitter,

right? And I've had my phone number for

25 years, same one, right? And someone

posted and went, "Give this is Eddie

Hearn's number. Give him a call and you

know, tell him what you think about the

pay-per-view price or whatever it is."

and my phone was going men's like it was

like every literally all day it was just

private number private number and I

thought you know what you got to change

your number and I thought I can't be

bothered so I started answering a few

right and to this day this was a few

years ago it's that people still do it

and there's this one guy

you've got the same number

I can't be bothered to change it right

so this guy private number private

number private number and it's all day

right so I pick it up and I go, "Hello,

mate." And he goes, "Oh,

bloody hell, Ed." And I go, "Yeah, how

you doing, mate?" And he goes, "Uh, um,

when you going to stop ripping us off on

the pay-per-views or something like

that, right?" And I go, and and I went

to him, "Mate, let's have a serious

conversation.

What are you doing?" And he goes, "What

do you mean? What am I?" I said, "Have

you got a job?" And he's like, "Uh,

yeah." I said, "You haven't, have you?"

And he's like, "What? Not not at the

moment." I said, "What are you doing?" I

said, "How many times have you phoned me

today?" Oh, I mean, the answer was like

40, right? I said, "You can't focus." I

said, "All the energy you're putting

into phoning me cuz you think it's

banter or it's some kind of

accomplishment if I pick up the phone."

I said, "Put it into something

worthwhile." I said, "Cuz you really

wasting your life." And he just went

quiet and he's like, "Uh, oh, come on,

Eddie. What about a few quid off the

pay?" And I'm like, "No, no, mate. I'm

serious. I want to help you. You've got

to you've got to change, you know, and

then he just hung up and I thought,

[ __ ] I hope you're all right." But it's

true, isn't it? What are you doing? What

are you doing? I mean, all right, once

might be quite funny, you know, I pick

it up and you give me a bit, but like

all day, every day, you know, because

I'd hate to be one of those people that

just wakes up every morning with no fire

in the belly, with no passion, with

nothing. And there are, by the way,

that's 95% of the population.

Many people, that's why it's so

important to me here to create an

environment, a matching for the for the

team where you enjoy being there. you

know, we got we get food together, we

got a gym, we got a pool, we got we're

all traveling away to events, we'll have

a night out. We do that because you

can't be in a job or a life where you're

just flat. How am I going to get the

best out of you if you don't love what

you do? And it's very difficult to have

that same passion when it's not your

business, you know? So, motivation is

important, but Frank, you know, Frank

said to me, he said, he said, uh, you

know, Eddie's a Eddie's a businessman.

That's that's where you came from. Your

dad's a businessman, too. And with this

new age of social media and all the

interviews you do on YouTube and you are

relentless with the interviews as well

by the way and I was when I was saw you

in New York uh on that rooftop with like

the nice garden stuff. Yeah. You were

back to back to back doing those

interviews with all these bloggers for 3

hours.

That's helped grow the business. It's

why most people know Matt Room of this

especially of this generation but it's

made you a celebrity. And Frank said to

me he said I don't think he's enjoying

the celebrity thing, you know. And I

think a lot of people would be really

really surprised to hear that because

you know

people would they think that you'd love

it. They think you love the attention. I

mean promoters are in the business of

attention right but from a personal

perspective apparently you don't like

it. You don't like the celebrity.

I didn't set out to be a c celebrity and

I set out to be a businessman. I set out

to um continue the success that that

that my dad built. But I do recognize

that if I am well known, if I am a

showman, if I am a celebrity, it will

help me push my events. It will help me

push the profile of fighters. You know,

you get to a stage now where the

industry haters might say, "Oh, well,

it's ridiculous. He's doing all these

interviews. You know, he's more popular

than most of his fighters." You know,

more popular is the wrong word. Well

known than than some of his fighters.

But that's me, you know, and I look at

the success of the UFC. I look at the

growth of of that business and Dana

White and every major fight sport um

product has that lead guy. In WWE, it's

Vince McMahon. You know, in MMA, it's

Dana White. And in boxing, I guess it's

me or, you know, I want it to be me.

So, there's a method to the madness.

And but, you know, the book the book was

something that I wanted to do because I

just thought it was funny that I would

ever write a book, right? I didn't think

it's funny.

No, but if you knew me at school and you

knew I just it was more like Hodddter

put it to me during before lockdown and

when lockdown come I panicked and I was

like oh and next you know talk about

being at home with your kids now I'm at

home with my kids and I've got no events

and oh so I was just like for those

first two weeks I was just right we

launched a fitness show with Sky that

people could do at home fighting fit you

know I said to the guys yeah give me

that book deal I'll write it now let's

do the book now And I wrote it in

lockdown, you know, and and I was just

zooms, more zooms, more interviews

because I was I just I was just scared

of not having that drive every single

day of, you know, going out there and

and and I didn't enjoy like an illness.

It is an illness. It is an illness.

Let's be honest. We're all sick, aren't

we? I mean like you can't do you can't

wake up in the night every night and

start writing emails, doing contracts,

texting people, and then wake up at 7

and do the school run and then drive to

work and do it all over again every

single day unless you're a little bit

ill in the head.

You you can't actually be still like so

when you talked earlier about that cigar

moment in the future sitting on that

beach, I didn't believe you for a

second.

Yeah, you're probably right. But I just

I'd like to think that at least what I'm

telling the miss is that one day we'll

be we'll chill out. You know what I

mean? But

could you imagine laying on a beach with

a cigar like this? No emails, no

nothing. Just no fights coming up,

nothing. Just

meditating.

No, but I think it all depends where you

get to. You know, it's like when you're

building your stack at poker. You know,

the problem with gambling is you never

know when to walk away, right? And we're

not gambling anymore because we're very

good at what we do. But life is always a

gamble. So when you build your stack,

it's that moment when you say to the

cashier, "Can I get a rack, please?" And

you put it in your rack.

Yeah.

And you go up to the cashier's desk and

you say, "Cash that in for me." And they

go,

So,

and you walk away and you go,

"Yeah." And then you get sit down, you

go have a nice beer.

But that moment sucks. You said that

the m the m that moment doesn't suck.

But then after again, it's the thrill,

isn't it? I like to win. I like to be.

So the thing that would hurt me more is

if I turned around tomorrow and went,

couldn't have done any more in boxing.

I'm out. Bye. What would hurt me more is

sitting on the beach, not not, you know,

enjoying myself going, now I'm gone. All

those people that I was fighting again

for all those years to become number

one, they got no they're back. You know,

they're back. And that's what my dad

walked away from boxing because it is

the most um aggravating business, an

intense business. And that's what I'm

saying about all throughout the night

because everyone's trying to [ __ ] you

nonstop,

right? So, you have to sleep with one

eye open. And I think he got to a stage

where he went, I don't want to do this

anymore. I'm going to go and do darts

where everyone's going to love me.

Do you know what I mean? And I'm jealous

of him for that because I saw growing up

this guy that was so intense and who had

a bad temper and you know and then all

of a sudden once boxing went he was just

chilled out. Wow. I can't believe what's

happened to my life. So you know I I I

hate to let people win and if I left

ultimately they would win. But I guess

the only time you can walk away is when

you're content. And will the contentment

ever come at the moment? Like you say

possibly not. But who knows, you know,

who knows where we can build to, where

we can get to, where it might be that

moment. And again, you have to always

leave the option open because, as I

said, your thoughts at 20 are totally

different to your thoughts at 30 and 40

and 50. I may get to 50 and we may be,

you know, have had another great 10

years and I might go, fire's not there

anymore. I'm done. Or I might be saying,

right, now I want to take over music.

Now I want to take over football. Now I

want to, you know, so it's difficult to

say. And with the family businesses,

they're a very special thing. And in the

world, in the world we live in today

with these big global corporations and

the public markets growing, it's very

rare for a family business to withstand

the temptation of acquisitions or going

public or whatever.

What who you don't have a son,

right? And uh I'm wondering who

continues the family business if you

were to go down that route. Is it

No. No, well that's that's a good point

because that is the the conversation,

you know, ever since I started to

understand business more for me that

that is a natural progression of a

family business to go family business,

you know, investment or acquisition or

IPO and that's what you do because how

do you I I have I have aspirations for

this business to grow globally and to be

staging events in every major territory.

in the world. You know to do that does

require huge investment does does

require you know management. It and we

can do it but that's not our

specialtity. Our specialtity is creating

great live events for our broadcasters

and fans. Okay. So my dad has always

said to me I will never ever ever

take investment for the business float

the business or sell the business. And

I've always over the years gone, yeah,

but you know, it's got we got to get to

and actually the the the son thing is

quite interesting. You know, I've been

blessed with two amazing daughters. Of

course, every man would quite like a

son. Didn't work out. It's what God gave

me. But there is it's an interesting

point because my end goal if I had a

son, and listen, only 41, who knows? But

I think it would be more, you know, here

we go again down the line kind of thing.

With me, I would quite like to end

the journey with my dad. Do you know

what I mean? To say,

look at what we, you know, not it's

gone, but look at where we started. Look

at where we finished. Because it's very

difficult. And I and I take the interest

from you know hedge funds and you know

investment funds with unbelievable

amount of compliment to say wow you know

and the calls are coming in non-stop

because they appreciate the model of

growth where when we talk about one

sport one promoter one belt you know

that mindset it's a carbon copy of the

UFC you know the UFC sold 4.6 6 billion.

There is no reason why boxing with with

so much more history, with so much more

credibility with fans and broadcasters

can't replicate that model and actually

be even more valuable than the UFC

business. And I'm really the only chance

it has to do it. It's not going to be

Bob Haram. It's not going to be Don

King. It's not going to be Frank Warren.

It's going to be me. So all of a sudden,

I've been giving interviews like that

and then the calls are come. But right,

we want, you know, and it's like, guys,

we're not we don't need it. We're not If

I wanted to go and get funding, if I

wanted to go and float, I'll do it

tomorrow.

But it's a big, it's a big, you know,

headbutting system with me and me and my

dad. And, you know, he's starting to

look and I'm just saying we can't just

be blind to it. It's a natural

progression for any business in terms of

growth to to look at these models. And

but is that why you're doing the

business? because you know this bit the

happiness you've got from this business

I I would guess and I run a I ran a

public business until recently um much

of it

loads of [ __ ] you don't necessarily

want right quarterly reporting you got

to hit the numbers if you don't then you

got to do something short-term that's

not necessarily in the long-term

interest of the business right so

I I I I'm almost quite jealous of the

setup you have the control you have you

have it in your family and you're happy

but but you're someone that almost needs

forward momentum to continue to be to be

happy.

It's growth, isn't it? You know, you

know that as a family business, you

know, we we you know, you can see in our

financial results, we're fantastic. You

know, we we're a huge uh family business

in terms of the numbers that we're

delivering year on year end.

Yes.

But at the same time,

you're almost capped by the growth and

by the numbers within the current within

that setup.

Yeah.

You know, okay. So when you start, you

turn a break even business into a a 5

million EBIT DAR company and then before

you know it, the aim is 10 and 15 and

now we're 30 and you know, but how do

you get to

4 billion?

Why does 4 billion matter?

That's just the UFC number, you know.

So, but because why it matters is

it was never on the agenda. It was never

possible.

It could never be done. And I guess it

goes back to the competition with my dad

where I'm saying, you know, I believe,

you know, when you talk about PE ratios

and the value of a business, yeah, we

know what we're worth now, but I do

believe we have the potential to be

worth those kind of numbers.

And that would be your success in some

respects.

It's a game. It's a game, Steve. It's I

don't know. It's not like I don't I

don't think that deeply to I just see it

as a game.

But when you start thinking deeply, it

doesn't make you question. Yeah, that's

a good point. Why does

I don't know. I I just I live in the

moment I live in now. I just feel that

every day we're trying to expand. We're

trying to push the boundaries. We're

trying to do more. So, would I like to

this business to, you know, sell or have

a value of four? [ __ ] right.

Why?

Because it could it's ridiculous.

We're just a couple of like he's out of

dagnum. I'm his son.

It would be a great story.

Yeah. But it it's just it's us against

the world

cuz the money would do to be honest.

The money wouldn't change my lifestyle

at all. I'm not I've got a couple of

nice cars, right? I got a nice house. I

don't want a yacht. I don't want a jet.

I don't want I mean Well, I mean, we'll

talk about it, but you know, I I don't

want for anything. I'm not I'm at the

age now maybe when I was in my 20s.

Yeah. Wow. You a private jet and you got

you just rent it if you need it. So,

it's just it's just the fact that what

we've done. I think I think legacy is um

I was talking to Freddy Flint off on my

pod yesterday and I said I said about

legacy and he went I think legacy is a

load of bollocks. I I actually I

disagree a little bit because you know

when you go back to that moment where

you're on your deathbed and it might be

today or and when you've achieved

something like that you just you put

yeah you start laughing and you go I

can't believe we've done it. I can't

believe we've done it. And that would be

the better kind of memories or the

achievement to me. You know, can you

believe we done it? But you've got to

enjoy it at the same time. But, you

know, I don't know. It it's you can you

can debate this all all day long because

you sit back on the deathbed and you

say, "Yeah, but was I really happy?"

Well, of course, because this is

bringing us happiness. This is I know

that every day I come in here and I'm

smiling and I'm up for it and I'm

passionate and I'm full of energy and I

got a drive and a fire in my belly.

That's good enough for me. My dad comes

in every day. He's been coming in, you

know, into this off into this business

for

50, 45 years and he's got the same

passion, the same energy that he did

when he first started the company.

That's got to tell you something. And

this is almost somewhat of a

contradiction because he's coming in it

here every day. You're both really,

really happy. You're coming in here with

a fire in your belly. But then there's

this other part of you that's like, "But

we need the end point." Would that help?

He doesn't. He doesn't he he he he

doesn't want any of that, you know. He's

going, "No, son. We got the most amazing

business. You know, we're forecasted to

just for continue growth for the next 5

10 years. We got broadcast contracts

locked in. We we're untouchable." And

I'm like, "Yeah, but how do we go?" You

know, I want offices, you know, we have

offices in in England, in New York, in

uh Milan, in Madrid. I want offices in

Sydney, in Toronto, in Mumbai, in

Beijing. that that's what I want.

Why?

Because we're not supposed to have it.

We were never supposed to be this

business. I was never supposed to be

this kid.

So, it sounds like you're proving

something to

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. But probably to him.

And if

that's what it comes down to,

which comes back to your childhood,

probably.

And if you prove that to him,

right, you have all these offices around

the world, you sell for five billion.

Will that make you happy?

Probably not. But I don't know. I I I

don't think that selling for 5 billion

and making a load of money will make me

happy. But it it will make me happy to

be able to say I can't believe we've

done it. You know, I can't believe what

we've achieved. But

and then you'll need the next thing

possibly or that might be the the cigar

on the beach moment.

I wrote I wrote this one sentence in my

book where I started to understand the

moment I described at the start with

someone made me an offer for my business

and I looked at it when I was 23 and I

thought, "Oh my god, 25 million quid."

Oh, [ __ ] And then what I learned in

that moment is my whole life became so

confused and I almost fell into like I'd

call it chaos. And so in my book I write

that we live our lives thinking that

we're striving for stability, which

would be completed goals, the cigar um

thinking that stability is stability and

that we're trying to escape chaos. But

what I came to learn was in fact um our

stability is chaos. It's the having

unanswered goals and it's the problems

and it's the forward motion. So our

chaos is stability and our stability,

the cigar moment would actually feel

like chaos. Yeah.

It would feel like some kind of

if it wasn't time.

If it wasn't time and we don't know when

it will be time.

But what you just said there is very

true because

like any athlete

that moment when they're in the chaos is

where they feel most at peace with

themselves. You speak to any fighter and

you say where where would you rather be

m anywhere in the world and I say in the

ring and that's the same for us. So it's

not like I want aggravation but stick me

in it put me in front of problems and

and tell me I can't do something. That's

where I'm in my moment. Am I in my

moment where I'm sitting at home, you

know, watching TV? No. I'm I'm at my

best when I'm doing those 100 200

interviews or I've got problems or a

fight's fallen through and you know all

of a sudden the shit's hit the fan.

That's when I'm at my best. So, and

that's where I do feel calm in a way.

You know, at first when you have

problems, you know, it might be a panic,

but for me, okay, this is what we do. We

go to work now, you know, and that's

that's the same for an athlete or a

fighter. That's when they feel calm when

you might be watching going cuz that's

not your your calm. That's not your your

moment. It's their moment. I'm fine.

Yeah. When AJ fights, he ain't nervous.

I'm [ __ ] [ __ ] myself because I

can't control it. It's not me. It's not

what I do. But that's what he does. You

know, when when a fight's fallen through

or it looks like a massive show's about

to be cancelled and other people in here

might be going, "Oh, oh, do you think

it'll be all right? Do you think we and

I just lock the door and say, "Right,

leave me alone." And I go to work.

That's my that's that's no problem for

me, you know. But but you only become

exceptional at things and used to things

when you become familiar with them

and when you put yourself in the same

position time and time again. It's about

Frank, you know, we we always laugh

about him giving his press conferences,

you know, because when I did my first

ever press conference, which was Audi

Harrison against David Haye, I couldn't

stop shaking. You wouldn't have known it

at the time, but I put my hands on the

table like this and I and I could I

could feel him and I could I could see

him going. So I just when I spoke I just

put them underneath my legs like this

and just le forward and and you would

never have known. And when I done the

next one a little bit less and the next

one and then within five or six I never

needed notes. I just speak you know for

hours and with Frank you know he done

one recently and I could see him shaking

you know I was just taking the piss out

of him and I just said just keep doing

it keep doing it. Repetition repetition

keep putting yourself in situations.

Steve Davis, who is my godfather, I said

to him once, how do you you know when

you you talk about sort of sports where

millimeters make a difference? It's

nothing more than a snooker, you know. I

said, how do you do you not get nervous?

You know, you're about you go down to

pot the blackboard and just little one

little jolt and it's all over. And he

said, I I have no nerve endings. He

said, "Because I've been put in the

position time and time again. In the

end, it's just it's second nature. It's

just like riding a bike." And and that's

that's what the same with business. You

have to keep putting yourself in a

position time and time again, and you'll

keep improving.

Listen, thank you for your time today.

Enjoy. Another No, it's another

counseling session. You know, I'm going

to leave it now and go away and have to

have a deep think. You know, I I think

the best the best thing you you can talk

about mindset and and mentality and

for hours and hours and hours.

Just keep it simple.

Don't over complicate things. Don't

overthink things. Be happy. Keep smile.

That's difficult when you want something

so bad and you're chasing it. But if you

start to really overanalyze, that's when

you know things start creeping in. Just

keep it simple. And um you know I said

sometimes if things get tough or you

know we got problems and I say to my old

man oh he said don't worry he said just

wake up an hour earlier tomorrow and go

to bed an hour later and I'm thinking

that's so that's so and he is the most

simple mindset but it works for him

because you and the best thing you can

do is be honest with yourself as well.

Just try and understand, take a step

back and just think about what is

happening in the world and your world

right now. And if you can understand it,

you can deal with it and you can solve

it. But just think simple.

Thank you.