this week on the diver ceo we have a

returning guest

jake humphreys he is an entrepreneur he

is a tv presenter

he's also now a podcaster and jake has

spent the last

year on his podcast sitting down with

some of the most high performance

people some of the most accomplished

people in their industries from

acting to business to sports you name it

and so because of that experience

because of all the insights he's gained

over the last year since we last spoke

i wanted to sit down with him and

compare notes

we have a lot of high performance people

on this podcast too i wanted to

understand the similarities

i wanted to pick into the minds of some

of the guests and what he's learned from

them

how are they the same what makes them

different and that's what we're going to

talk about today so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

dire of a ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

you've um you've had what 30

people on your podcast today you've got

a lot more coming up

one of the key questions that i that i

wanted to ask you because it's you know

something that i asked myself

is what are those like key lessons that

you've learned you've interviewed

you know high performance athletes

actors

authors um and really sort of high

performance people

from all industries what are the key

lessons and the themes

i think there is one key lesson that was

summed up for me by

matthew mcconaughey the oscar-winning

actor who came on my pod

recently and his phrase is don't leave

crumbs

and what he means by that is like when

you're making a decision

don't leave stuff behind don't make a

bad decision now that later on you've

got to go back and pick that crumb up

and be regretful about it and

that's brilliant because sometimes when

we talk on the podcast we talk about

really like big

blue sky thinking you know like we've

talked to you about social change

setting up social change sometimes to

people that are listening and that can

seem like unreal almost untouchable

because it's this huge

multi-million dollar business that

you've created but actually

don't leave crumbs is about making the

decisions for a big

big business like that and creating

something amazing but also like

make sure that you don't have an extra

drink and even in case it leaves you

with a hangover tomorrow and you've got

work to do or make sure you

simply choose your clothes the night

before so you're not doing it in a rush

and

like i still leave crumbs all the time

like i'll tell you when we uh when we

interviewed matthew

like he's the first hollywood actor

we've had on the pod so for me it was

quite a big moment

and i thought i really want to be

looking good for this so i thought i'd

have a shower and a shave before we do

the interview

and i was having a shave in the bathroom

my wife was in the bath

and she was going to come down and like

listen in the corner in my study because

she was like

she loves dallas buyers club she was

excited and uh

she starts having a shave and she goes

it's 9 54.

i was like and i thought it was like 9

30 or something we put the kids to bed

and then the next thing i'm running

downstairs i haven't done my hair

properly

i'm on i've got two wi-fi zone because

our upload speed living in the

countryside is horrendous

so i was then on the wrong wi-fi i then

looked for the script i'd written for

the questions for matthew couldn't find

them

and i was like i was the last one in i'm

getting beaten to the interview on my

own podcast

by a hollywood actor and

i left crumbs and now that's a good

lesson for me because i do it all the

time and i think that

you only learn about the crumbs you

leave by doing it and i just

i just really want people i've had a few

negative comments that have come my way

about the podcast

direct messages from people saying um

you're getting this all wrong we're in a

global pandemic i'm having a really hard

year

and here you are with a podcast that's

just celebrating success all the time

and showing up

how um how we're all doing badly

compared to your great guests

and for me the podcast is a that hurts

me to think that

because i don't want anyone to come to

the high performance podcast and leave

in that way but it's the absolute total

opposite

of that because when we talk about what

lessons can you learn from people on the

podcast

the other biggest one is they mess up

all the time i think

i genuinely believe successful people

make more mistakes than anybody else

because they're

constantly challenging themselves to do

stuff and you you're no stranger to

making

decisions that at the time you just

simply don't know

but you have to find a way of making

that decision um

and i'm sure there are times when you've

made 10 or 15

life-changing decisions in a week you

know the the the point about those

crumbs

and you know rushing down the stairs

when you realize that you were like what

could you have done in hindsight to

um to prevent those crumbs being left

behind per se i just need to be really

honest with myself that i have

weaknesses and i need to address them

rather than thinking that everything's

fine and i am

notoriously late i am always a few

minutes late and always my new year's

resolution is this is the year

that i'm not going to be late is but it

just i'm surprised you know that you're

late

because um the industry you work in i

know

it's very and look at all the guests

i've had on my podcast we had um sir

clive woodward who won the rugby world

cup

and you think of all of the discipline

and the rules and the mindsets you need

to win

a rugby world cup the number one thing

that stands out for him is something

called lombardi time which was created

by the players

and they lombardi obviously is a famous

name in american sports and they call it

lombardi time because it's a name that

sort of resonates

with winning and it was 10 minutes early

so if you say to any former england

rugby player what's lombardi time

they'll tell you 10 minutes early so

listen

i'm hearing this stuff steven on a

weekly basis and still not getting it

right and i think it just goes to show

that we are human we have

we are fallible and i do think we have

blind spots which

there are some things some people find

really hard i don't there are some

things that is not an issue for other

people

and it is a recurring problem for me to

deal with

but no one's perfect and how do you

emotionally feel

about the fact that you have blind spots

in terms of like

do you beat yourself up about it yeah

yeah i think so

yeah um i think it's a really common

phrase isn't it to hear that you're your

own biggest critic

i think i'm probably less my own biggest

critic

than i was previously like when i

first started in my presenting career

and i used to come off air on the

formula one

i would solely focus on the bad stuff

on the issues on the problems and that

was instilled in me by david coulthard

because he'd step straight out of a

formula one car

straight into broadcasting and

tv is a friendly and lovely place to be

most of the time

you know we're really good at telling

each other how great we are and we had

our first production meeting

just after the first race and i was just

grateful to get through it it was my

first ever bit of

live formula one so i was just glad to

have survived so i was ready for this

lovely you were great you were great you

were great this was great

we started the meeting and david

coulthard went well sorry

can we just stop and that this is

unheard of he goes

i'm just not interested in this and the

producer was like sorry

i don't understand he's like i'm not

interested in sitting here and going

through all the good stuff

how does going through the good stuff

make the boat go faster

why are we not talking about the bad

stuff and that was a revelation from me

i was like yes the good stuff's already

good so you focus on the good stuff

now i have a different mindset and

bearing in mind

my first race was 2009 so this is 11

years ago

and for a long time my focus was on

the stuff that i was struggling with or

the stuff i wasn't very good at

or the times where i didn't feel life

was very good so i would look at a bad

month or a bad year and go right

why was i not flowing why was i not

really in a happy place why was this

why don't we focus more on the good

stuff and that is my mindset change that

is the thing that i

for 2021 that is going to be my focus

let's focus on the good stuff so we

realize what the good stuff is just do

more of it let's focus on the times when

you were flowing and when you were

feeling great

when you were barreling around the place

and when you were the guy and when

everyone wanted to work with you

what was i doing what was i eating how

was i sleeping

who was i spending my time with what was

feeding me what was making me feel

fantastic

that's probably a better place to focus

on i particularly after the sort of crap

2020 we've all had

i feel we've become a nation maybe even

a planet

with this light obsession on failure

to not fail anymore to be good and it's

almost like a badge of honor isn't it

like i'm sure if

you said to me three or four months ago

how's your relationship with failure my

love failure

love faith bring failure on that's how i

learn failures where i grow

i need to be on the absolute edge so i'm

failing all the time i want to fail

forwards and i want to fail often

like i still do but when i fail when i

leave crumbs when i'm late for an

interview with matthew mcconaughey

i'm not thinking why did that happen

because then i'm focusing on the failure

i will allow it to be there

and i will do my best not to do it again

but i'm gonna try for 2021 to think

about the good stuff man and just to see

how that changes things for me

super interesting you know do you focus

on your failure

um i i don't focus on the failure i

think i was just i was

actually asking myself that question

when you were talking i was thinking do

i am i someone that dwells on failure to

be fair i don't

i'm very very good at being detached

from it all i think i talked earlier in

this podcast about

this like um video game mentality that

i've taken on my life where

i see my my worst days

and to be honest a lot of them no i

think it's just my worst days as

if i'm playing a video game and that i

am

i am not what's happening and it's and i

i think that detachment from what's

happening

has allowed me in my most chaotic

moments

to remain calm it's allowed me to form a

sort of calm within my chaos so

if i have a big failure or i really

really [ __ ] up and i'm i'm disappointed

with myself or whatever

i'm very good at detaching from that um

so i think i think the absolute

absolute ownership of what you're doing

for me is powerful which is

is that the total opposite of what

you're saying because like whatever i do

i have to absolutely believe it and own

that decision because then if it goes

wrong or people question it i can say

listen i

really thought it was the right thing

it's like the emotional detachment it

means that

i'm not i don't think that i'm going to

die although i am totally responsible

for changing it so i can think of i'm

thinking

specifically about the day where um i

was driving to work

get get the emails and the text messages

saying that our whole server's been

hacked and every client we have has been

sent really

really personal specific abuse by them

from our email server

that's come from my business partner's

email that looks like it was meant to be

sent to my assistant

but the client was just accidentally ccd

and this happened this happened about

four years ago five years ago

so i'm driving to work and i'm getting

all these and in that moment

one has a choice whether they want to

fall into the problem and become the

problem and become consumed by it

or if they want to hold it out in front

of them and deal with it there

yeah if it consumes me i'll be crippled

with anxiety crying in the corner

but if i can hold it out in front of me

and realize that this isn't gonna kill

me this isn't gonna end me

yeah this isn't you know but this is

something that i have to deal with out

in front of me

then it becomes much more um possible to

be rational

and to think in terms of probabilities

and i've come to learn especially over

the last year or two

that when you can um make your decisions

based on probabilities of the outcome

you can make really really good

decisions yeah um

you know i was thinking a good example

of that is actually um

a friend of mine yesterday texts me and

he said to me

that it's interesting he said to me that

at his marketing agency

his clients passwords have maybe been

exposed to one outside individual

so there's one guy another company that

might have seen all of his clients

passwords

and he said steve i'm going to call all

of my clients now and tell them that all

of their passwords have been exposed

so i said let's go through the

probabilities here if you lined up a

hundred people

like the guy that might have seen these

passwords how many of them

would do something malicious with that

information we both agreed it was

probably less than one percent

of like reputable people that would take

a bunch of passwords and do something

malicious

so i said okay so one person out of 100

or less so your probability of harm is

less than one percent

um what's the probability of harm if you

call all of your clients and tell them

that

all of their passwords have been leaked

probably greater than one percent

yeah so let's think about ways we can

get that less than one percent down to

like zero so i said

email all your clients and tell them

you've done a security review

and that um you you highly recommend

they all turn on two-factor

authentication today

and that means the probability of harm

goes from less than one percent to zero

and but he was like in the in the

emotional mindset he was just like i'm

going to call them all yeah apologize

because you probably felt a duty of care

but if you do the two-step

authentication i suppose you're still

it's like you zero yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah yeah music to zero percent

it's a duty you're balancing their duty

of care and you know how do i

remove harm from my clients but also

remove harm from my business but he was

so emotional when he called me

that he wasn't thinking rationally yeah

and that's why holding it out in front

of you allows you to think in terms of

rational employment

perspective that perspective is so

important to have like

i've always had like this irrational

fear of imminent disaster

so when i was a kid i used to come in

from school my mom would go and walk the

dog and she might be 15 or 20 minutes

most kids would just watch cartoons

i would be like out the window after 10

minutes singing where's my mom

where's my mom and then these little

voices come in my head all maybe

something really bad's happened to her

maybe she's like slipped over and banged

her head and

or maybe she's lying in a field right i

might have to go and find one my mum is

and then she reappears i'm like oh thank

goodness

even now with my kids if i'm out someone

they go around the corner i don't just

think to myself i'll walk around the

corner and my kids will be there

until i can see my kids again and there

might be parents listening to this that

relate

the worst possible things that could

happen to one's children is a

is happening to my kids until i can see

them so i find myself like speeding up

or saying to my friends yeah hey let's

go and sit over here so we can keep

just literally so i can keep an eye on

the kids and then i'm a little bit of a

hypochondriac so i fear that and then

when my phone goes

and or someone sends me a message going

hey jake can we have a chat later like

it could be someone from

whisper or it could be someone from bt

sport or someone about the pod

i don't go yeah yeah cool i'll call you

later i'm like oh what could that be

my brain goes to worst case scenario and

i found myself really quickly going so

it's got a really important call to make

my heart's racing 10 to the dozen and

then as soon as i

if i find out what it is i'm like oh

thank goodness where does this come from

i don't know

because there is no skeleton in the

closet like a friend rang me the other

day

and the message that you gave me was

he's separating from his wife

which is massively sad but he rang me

and said listen i'm really sorry to call

you with this um

quite awkward news i'm immediately

thinking oh my goodness right

what on earth can this be but in my head

it's gonna end everything it's gonna

cost me my marriage my kids

my job my house isn't that ridiculous

but

i now have the perspective that i know

this is how i am i've had this since i

was like 11 or 12 years old

i know this is how i'm made so that is a

really powerful thing for me because i

then think

when i feel this feeling beginning like

when my kids go around the corner i now

say to myself listen

your kids are going to be fine playing

the other side of a tree

you know yourself well enough to know

that this is just a rational anxiety

it's your brain

and it's just playing a trick on you

that's all this is you talk a lot about

responsibility yeah

um there you just said this is how i'm

made yeah

that sounds like giving up

responsibility yeah yeah so

now i think i'm taking i yes you're

right you are totally right

but then i feel like i'm taking the resp

i'm slowly still learning even at 42.

i'm taking the responsibility back by

saying right i'm not going to allow

myself to get anxious about that

because i know what i'm like if i'm the

most chilled out person in the world and

i find a reason to be anxious maybe i

should be worried about that

i'm going to tell them about the lift

jake

so we're on the fourth floor here and uh

jake jake came up uh

knocked on the door looking pretty

sweaty and said uh i just took breath

he said i just took the stairs because i

opened the lift and i didn't trust it

this lift there's never been any

problems with it if you look at the

stats around deaths in lifts or things

you and me are not hanging out today

that seems somewhat connected to what

you're saying

yeah i think you're probably right yeah

maybe i should have taken the lift

because i know that everything will be

fine in the lift and i should know that

i'm a bit claustrophobic but

i think it just goes to show that again

and you've spoken about this so

powerfully over the years on your

podcast is that from the outside world

you look at someone like me and think

wow

a couple of kids few businesses great

house nice broadcasting career

what a lovely carefree life he must live

every day man is riddled with little

anxieties and little worries

um a few years ago probably almost to

the point of derailing as we've

discussed on your previous

podcast with me but now knowing myself

knowing yourself is so powerful because

only then

like can you love yourself you think

that's also somewhat linked that you

said earlier on about that comment you

read

where people are like jake you know you

shouldn't be doing a podca happy

podcasting sad times basically

yeah the fact that you remembered that

and you referred to it as hurting you

seems also somewhat correlated to this

yeah i think

i don't know i think it's a i think it's

a it's a fair point

i find that a harder thing to get i find

external criticism

is a harder thing for me to deal with i

find that more

i find that a more difficult um thing to

own in my head why

um i think because probably human beings

just want people to like what we're

doing

i mean i find it confusing as well

because i think if you're being offended

by

my high performance podcast like

wow that that shows the level of offence

that some people can take because i

really want i honestly

want it to just be a holy positive

experience from the moment that someone

clicks subscribe or starts listening to

the pod to the minute they leave i just

i just want people to be happier to get

takeaways to live a more empowered life

to go and be successful i honestly

believe it like

it comes you've got thousands and

thousands and thousands of reviews on

your podcast yeah it's rated five stars

people pour their heart out telling you

how much they love it how much value it

brings

and we're talking about this one guy i'm

a human i suppose am i

i think you slightly over index a little

bit in terms of caring about this stuff

though

and i i actually you know when people

asked you know what you're like after

meeting you i said he's just such a nice

guy such a good guy

and you are such a good guy and it it's

maybe that is part of i don't know is

that somewhat connected to

your i think so don't you think that

don't you think the two are completely

connected though that

if i wasn't the kind of guy that

genuinely wanted people to

you know be in a better place i wouldn't

give a [ __ ] whether someone said my

podcast was useless i'd be like well i

don't care anything i'm just doing it to

make some money

for me that podcast and i will openly

say this i've not made a penny from

creating and operating for an entire

year

and we talk all the time that this is

about the outcome not the income

and and i think the reason why it has

been successful

is that whether it's me or whether it's

damien or whether it's the guys that

help us to film and edit the podcast

together

all of us totally believe and buy into

what we're doing like i genuinely

think that it is what people need to

hear

because it is empowering people and do

great things who have been

you know a lot of my friends messaged me

after you had johnny wilkinson yeah

and they said that was [ __ ] weird it

was deep wasn't it i had to listen to

that back five times and i did the

interview

you know what was the remark i haven't

heard it what was the surprising

so the the bravery really from from

someone who

won a rugby world cup as a certain

person and now is a completely different

person

i mean i can give you like a sort of

salacious headline like he told us that

winning the rugby world cup

is no more important than doing the

washing up and the

the way that he squares that off in his

mind is he says what are you doing if

you're playing rugby

moving your body to achieve a goal what

you're doing if you're doing the washing

up

moving your body to achieve a goal and

if i make winning the rugby world cup

more important or to hold more value

than doing the washing up and i'm no

longer a rugby player what am i less

valuable because i'm no longer doing the

thing that was more important

that was the that is the sort of

sentence that he was

sharing with us which i think is

brilliant and brave and i can

relate to it and i and i can understand

it um

[Music]

but i think that for me the sort of the

real the real

revelation that came out of the johnny

wilkinson episode and what i really want

people to understand if they listen to

it

is that when you strip everything back

he is someone who has

totally changed from where he was when

he was conquering the world because when

he was conquering the world as a rugby

player

he thought he had to stress and struggle

and sacrifice

and fail and now he realizes that

stressing

and struggling and sacrificing and

failing leads to

more stress and struggle and sacrifice

and fail

and actually one of the amazing things

he said he said when i

released a book after winning the rugby

world cup i wouldn't be surprised if

there wasn't a spike in mental health

cases from people that read that book

because the book was saying

you've got a struggle you've got a

struggle you've got to you've got to

really

struggle in life to be successful and i

think that that is something that i

when we first started the high

performance podcast

i loved it when people spoke to me about

the battle and the struggle and the

strife and the sacrifice and the late

nights and the early starts

because i wanted people at home to go

yeah man i'm gonna work harder

i'm gonna commit more i'm gonna

sacrifice more

now i think that is so so so wrong that

is the total antithesis

of what i now the message i now want my

podcast to give to people

it's tough isn't it because it's hard to

find someone who's been

really successful at the very top of

their game whether it's business or

sport

hasn't done that yeah so i've contended

with this i've like contended mentally

with this idea as well

well again when i started putting

content out there especially when i was

really young like 18

i was bragging about how late i was

staying up i was like look at me at 4

a.m and i'm still working

and i was doing that because i was

trying to portray an image that i was i

don't know

a superhuman or something and my content

followed that theme

and then i got to the point where i

probably flipped the other way because

of public pressure and people's and the

the world now thinks that if you go on

the high performance podcast and say

hard work really really matters you will

take an l

you are an [ __ ] for saying that

because you're going to make people

depressed and anxious and you're a

hustle porn star

and then i got to another place which is

if it's the truth

it's the truth and i'm comfortable with

the truth and so

there's so many levels of nuance it's

like

the most successful people you'll

encounter at the very top of their

industries

worked like hell to get there yeah yeah

yeah

it's you know will smith you know

circlive woodward or um any anyone in it

that's a very consistent theme elon musk

right

but it but what i've come to do over the

years is detach that from happiness

first and foremost because it doesn't

necessarily mean they're happier

and then also redefine what success is

because success

can be being a great parent yeah or is

it to you then

i it has to be happiness i feel like

yeah that's my answer yeah

that has to be because you can still

have

the hard work and you can still have the

sacrifice

but you don't have the struggle that's

the that is the mistake i made i thought

the struggle was part of the hard work

and it was part of the early starts and

the late finishes and it was part of

sacrificing some things

that's what i thought the high

performance podcast was about but it

isn't you're totally right it's about

happiness and you can still

get up at five like i probably take too

much on

and i probably get up early than i need

to and i go to bed later than i need to

but i am so happy and that's what it has

to be

and it can't be happiness at the

detriment of others happiness yeah it

has to be

being happy content with yourself and

spreading that happiness and that again

is something that johnny wilkinson spoke

about which

for me has been one of the biggest

revelations being absolutely present

absolutely totally present so when i'm

here with you

my phone is down on the floor and it's

actually on silent but it should be off

because

i need to be totally present with you

right now

because what's happened is gone what's

yet to happen which is me going off to

do a game at bt sport

is a story i can write that in my head

if i like but i'm probably going to get

it wrong because it hasn't happened yet

exactly the way the day's going to go

so i need to like look you in the eye

right now and i can now promise you that

on this podcast

i am absolutely here with you and it

might be in half an hour i leave but

that's cool because

when then we're done and i'm then

traveling

and then i'm totally present and i'm

into that that is a really important

thing

that has again been a mindset change for

me on the high performance podcast and

maybe

now i sit and talk to you maybe this

whole thing is like a totally selfish

exercise for me because

i must have said four or five times that

this podcast has

rewritten the way that i see the world

and the way that i operate

and i think maybe maybe i want this

podcast

to be messages to my kids like i talk

already about my anxiety

probably another of my anxieties is how

much longer am i going to be on the

earth you never know what's around the

corner

i love the fact that if it all ended for

me as a walk out onto shoreditch

high street today and a car comes along

what

can my wife say to my kids that oh i

don't know my dad very well listen to

these 25 episodes listen to these 30

episodes of the high performance podcast

there's your dad that's him you walk out

here today then

yeah touch glass um and bus comes boom

yeah it's over what are the things you

you in

you would regret not having done more of

uh traveling with the kids probably but

they're only little they're only young

it's

such a hard question for me because

i think i think probably um

maintaining relationships with people

has always been an issue for me

because i i failed my a-levels as you

know at school so all my mates went off

to uni so that was kind of lost because

they went off having fun and i redid

them and then

i've always found that one of the issues

with trying to really be present

is that you're totally present in that

part of your world at that moment

and so i was then totally plugged into

life on children's bbc

and then i got this amazing opportunity

at formula one and i was totally plugged

into my life

in formula one and then i got you know a

big opportunity at bt sport and i had to

make that work so then i was totally

plugged into my new producers

and my my new colleagues and you know i

had a conversation with someone the

other day and they said you know like

who

you who are your real friends

it's a hard question that for me once i

moved beyond my wife

because i've got four or five mates who

i'm close

with but they're i would probably name

people that live on my street well i've

only lived there for four years

i might name a couple of parents on the

school run my kids have only gone to

that school for four years

i'd name a couple of people i've run my

production company whisper with but

that's only been going less than a

decade

i'd now probably class damian hughes and

i do the high performance podcast with

well i've done that for less than a year

but i'm in this and maybe that is

possibly the only regret i think but

maybe i don't need

i don't know maybe we don't need to hold

on to people for too long maybe we have

to accept that people come and go from

our lives and that's okay

and do you think it's because you you

haven't sort of perhaps you said like

you haven't

prioritized investing in those

relationships as much

i think it's because i'm always too

invested in the thing that i'm doing at

that moment

like i am so absolutely committed to

whisper coral eyewear the high

performance podcast

bt sport my kids

my wife and my family

there isn't an awful lot left right i

guess the question the better question

to ask

would be then but you're are you happy

because that if that is the ultimate

goal

then you know society will tell you to

live have loads of friends and do this

and have this car and whatever but then

the question the most important is be

happy happiest i've ever been

i've been the happiest i've ever been

yeah so you've got to be doing something

right right yeah

i think yeah i mean i i love what i do

like i really

like work i like getting up early

i like having five or six things on the

burn all the time i like having a

whole page of jobs that i'm gonna do

other people are not like that my wife

is the

opposite she's got four or five jobs

she's like oh man i feel so stressed i

got

i don't want all this stuff whereas

sometimes i sit there and i'm not making

a list of

big things on the horizon and i'm i need

to have a lot of them

and again maybe i give a c to everything

and i'd be better to have fewer things

and give them more than an

a matthew mcconaughey tells a great

story about cutting off two of his big

businesses because he was giving a b

to five things and he wanted to be an a

in three things the guests you've had on

your podcast all these wonderful people

you've met

do you sometimes get the impression that

some of them aren't

that happy yes

yeah um it's one of the things i've

learned from doing this as well

yeah it's really interesting and and i

totally get that everyone is

everyone is in it for different reasons

aren't they

like we spoke to sean wayne who and i

would say

you know sean wayne is not a household

name he's one of the most successful

rugby league managers in the uk

but if someone wanted to get into the

high performance podcast and they wanted

like a first podcast to listen to

don't just go for the big names i'm

telling you now

sean wayne gave us the most moving and

revelatory interview and

he in his sort of broad northern accent

he said

you don't i'm not bothered about being

happy he said i'm not not

happy i don't care about happy and that

was not you know happiness was not his

thing he's con

as soon as he achieved something within

moments it's about the next thing

and we sort of broke it down that he was

very badly abused by his dad as a kid

you know physically

punched in the face by a big man often

and that his entire life his entire

energy comes from wanting to redress the

balance and he's now a rugby league

coach

the the england rugby league coach

because he

he has this deep-seated desire to make

the lives of other people better

now he might personally never be happy

after the story that and the path that

he's been through

but he's definitely making other people

happy and he is also

totally comfortable with not being happy

now that's not everyone's story that's

his story

um but i certainly think that

we like in the past we've thought that

success and happiness are mutually

exclusive what do you want to be here

and be successful you can be happy

how wrong are we to think like that the

very

flame of success should be happiness

that should be the

absolute nub the crux of everything

what's the point otherwise man

what is the point i i get that a lot

with guests that i've had on

they seem to some guests seem to be very

neurotically obsessed with

the next thing and the next thing and

the next thing in the next thing and

when you ask them to pause and reflect

on hey when this ends or

um or why they're doing it it always

seems to flick back to their childhood

eddie ham was the was the same um i know

he's been on yours he was on mine last

week

and he uh when i was talking to him

about his aspirations for the future

with matroom he says i want to sell for

five billion and

we'll do this and we're gonna there and

i said why do you wanna sell for five

billion you're happy now he goes

he goes well you know we should be doing

we could we should be selling five

billion that's why i want to do it

but why does that matter and he goes and

he goes back to his dad when he's

younger he goes back to the fact that

his dad

used to criticize him and didn't give

him praise and it's

and it's weird that those early moments

have driven so and it's the same with me

to be honest

they drove this like obsessive desire to

just keep climbing a never-ending

mountain

and that's the trend that i've seen in

very successful guests and very

successful people

is often some kind of

it's a strange thing to say but

something that went not to plan

yeah when they're younger seems to be

the reason that we all adore them admire

them it's something that had hit them

in their emotions or their wiring that

sent them into an obsessive state

in in never as good as you think it

would be though you know when you get

when you achieve those things that you

want to achieve like

the the biggest thrill i've ever had was

when i spent 9

750 pounds on a green mgf it's my first

ever car

i could still remember the number plate

njn and i looked at that car

i bought it from an elderly gentleman in

colchester and i went to his house

and i said i've got a banker's draft and

i was working on children's bbc

he took me out to his garage and you

know those old like um

fluorescent light strips they flicker

come on i remember it's still on my head

as vivid as the day it happened the

light flicking

and just lighting the car up for a

second and then it goes and i looked at

it and i was like

i cannot believe now fast forward to

where i am now

you know a successful tv presenter

invested in coral eyewear run a podcast

um have two beautiful children um

who have a production company the kids

and my personal relationships are aside

from this because that is that is on a

deeper level than anything else but in

terms of material successes

nothing and i mean nothing man nothing

has come close to spending less than 10

grand

on a green mgf so you've got to enjoy

the journey you've got to enjoy the

travel because a

it's not as good when you get there as

you think it will be b

you spend an awful lot more time getting

there than arriving

like you have to answer this totally

honestly

you have you've totally left social

change now yeah

with money in the bank yeah that you

wouldn't have had if you hadn't walked

away from that business right

yeah what is more thrilling to you to

look at your bank

account now and see the number in the

bank account or to know the journey you

went on the social chain

oh yeah of course i mean the bank could

be double triple quadruple

ten times it wouldn't matter now if i

said to you if i came to you in

manchester when you went to nab

frozen pizza just to feed yourself and i

said listen dude you can either

absolutely work your nuts off for the

next 10 years

like build a business hang out with

people develop some good relationships

or

i'll just bang 100 mill in your bank

account today

there you go yeah and now here you are

you've got 100 mil and the thrill came

from

the journey there's something like i'm

always conscious of my own like

hindsight bias

because it seems to be the case that

every

broke person um goes on the journey to

get rich you know

that ends up being successful they get

the money they go it doesn't matter but

it's a wonderful thing to say when you

have you right like

part of the reason it doesn't matter is

because there's so much of it now it

really mattered when i was stealing

those pizzas right and when i was like

going behind the sofas in this pub

looking for the pound coins and i found

13 pound coins so i went back the next

day and

like it really really mattered in fact

it was all that mattered you know

in that moment so i'm super conscious of

that bias that we have because

um and you should be by the way and we

we are the same

on high performance when i say or you

know you need to have the bad times to

appreciate the good times and

um the the the traumas and the difficult

things will

will equip you for the rest of your life

i honestly

know that there are people that would

listen and go hold on a minute middle

class

white guy from a lovely village in

norfolk yeah you've had a few

issues with mental health and bullying

and that as you know the death of my

grandma

which was quite tragic and things like

that you haven't really

struggled yeah so then i think it's

important that

we uh we've done an interview that we

haven't put out yet for the podcast with

ceo khaleesi

first ever black spring box captain

and he tells us a story in the podcast

about not being able

to sleep at night because his stomach

hurts so much because he was so hungry

so his grandmother

gave him sugar water just to get him to

school so he could have a day at school

and she died in his arms at eight years

old when he sits on the podcast

and says he will go through some really

dark and difficult horrendous times you

know he grew up

in the most deepest poverty you could

imagine in south africa when he sits

there and goes

you can get through it and you can use

it as a flame and a fire

that is i think when you listen um

it's um i i have to say i also

completely agree that uh

you know the things that have mattered

most to me professionally especially as

i reflect have been

doing as you say doing work i love but

then like doing it with people i love

um and a mission that's worthwhile and

there's just always

people talk about this topic of burnout

a lot um

and i tend to believe and i'd like to

get your opinion on this i tend to

believe that

your burnout is somewhat inevitable if

you're doing things

that you don't intrinsically love doing

especially if you're doing it with

people you don't

you know really really love as well and

i feel like in any facet of your life if

you're doing it

too much you don't enjoy it the outcome

is burn out

um but is burn out a topic that's been

sort of

prevalent on your podcast no you know it

i suppose

partly the reason why burnout hasn't

come up very often is because we're

talking to people who are in the midst

of their successes or who have been

successful

and they love what they're doing and

they love what they're doing they're

full of passion whereas

people who have perhaps tried to do

something that wasn't quite right and

have suffered burnout and it hasn't

worked

we we don't know about them because the

burnout ended the dream but it's so

funny that's such a good point

that the fact that your pod you haven't

had that come up as a topic on a podcast

that speaks to people

who have clearly been intrinsically

driven by their passion to the very top

of their game

passion is everything you know you say

you spoke to eddie hearn what's his

what's his podcast no passion no point i

mean he is a great advocate

of finding something that you believe in

but i also get that

again you had a real passion for what

you do like i honestly

like i have a such a deep love and a

passion for all the things that i'm

involved in because if i didn't

then i wouldn't do them or i'd try and

find something else but there were times

in my life where i've done certain

things like i don't

as a tv presenter you often get asked to

do like corporates you know standing up

at awards and things like that and you

you need to welcome people

on stage and shake your hands have a

photo and i

i find them a real struggle i don't know

why i just don't get

a thrill out of doing those things so

that's a good thing for me because i

i've noticed that's something i don't

like and that for people that are

listening to this thinking you know what

what's my passion like what am i one of

one of the

really good ways of finding you is to

look at all the things that is not you

who are the people that don't make you

feel good what are the days when you

feel

drained and exhausted what are the the

trips or the phone calls or the

conversations or the lunches where you

leave thinking

every time i see that person i feel like

this if you can see the

see the stuff that isn't good for you

and strip that stuff away you will

eventually

and it might take a while be left with

who you are and that's the time to

really then think right

what am i about what am i as a person

because

i don't think you you can obviously get

tired and you can be in and you can

have problems but i think with real

passion i don't think you suffer burnout

because every day i seem to get this

like

so you've not got kids yet right but

when you do you have argument you have a

beautiful feet remember when my daughter

was born i love her with every

piece of my heart right i had this real

fear that when my son was born

where's the love going to come from yeah

no you do there's a feed that is

it's a quite common thing for parents

like my daughter had every single

bit of love in my body so my wife

obviously would

we're really super close but love for

your child is so different

it feels very different from the moment

that child is born and i could not have

loved my daughter

not one percent more so then my son is

about to be born

my daughter's gone off to the

grandparents and i'm watching my wife in

labour thinking

i've got nothing left for for sebastian

what's this about

sebastian's born and within two seconds

i love him equally so there's no

diminishing of the love for my daughter

not one bit

but all this new love has just appeared

out of nowhere

and i could love my son exactly the same

how is that possible and it is exactly

the same when you have a real passion or

a real

love for something like every day that i

get up and i'm making

phone calls or i'm having conversations

or i'm you know brainstorming or blue

sky thinking or thinking about guests or

heading to do live television

it's all filler it's filled up again i'm

full i'm ready to go

you know i don't feel like i'm like the

cup is draining slowly

because i love the stuff that i'm doing

and that's a great point because i think

people tend to believe that

passion is a singular thing yeah and

then they're searching for it aimlessly

like it's an easter egg hidden somewhere

yeah

and that you can drain you can't drain

your passion yeah you can have multiple

passions

yeah and you know you've met a ton of

you know high-profile people on your you

know from your

from your presenting career but also

from your podcast i'm sure you've come

across a bunch of [ __ ] as well

yes i'm not gonna ask you to i'm not

gonna ask you to name them holly tucker

on her podcast came out with her you

know what it's like

she created not on the highstreet.com

she said i'd rather have a hole

than an [ __ ] in other words

i would rather hang out with no one than

hang out with someone that i don't like

which i

which i thought was uh which i thought

was a good one but then matthew

mcconaughey said

do you want an [ __ ] or an idiot give

me the [ __ ] because at least you know

where you stand

really yeah so he was like at least and

i i do

relate to that somewhat the people that

i really struggle with in my life are

the people who

one day you see them and they're like

your best mate the next day it's like

you've never met them before

i do struggle with that i i like to know

where i stand with people i'm cool

if you want if you and me want to have

like a distant professional relationship

and you'll send me a text

saying happy new year i hope the podcast

goes well maybe hook up sometime in 2021

and we never see each other socially and

you come back on high performance i come

back on here and we

use to and throw a bit professionally

that's absolutely

that is cool what i don't want is

hey let's have a coffee do you let's

meet up in london yeah great oh man it's

so nice to see you so how's things how's

life

we chat a bit more have you got a

partner how's your dog as your life

and then you hear nothing for six months

and you think whatever happened to that

dude

and then they reappear again i'm so

sorry for not texting you back

there's the truth i feel like you're

shouting um there's the

there's the difficult thing for me not

knowing where i stand with people i you

know i don't want to be everyone's best

friend but i do want

meaningful relationships with people and

they can be meaningful

from a distance or super intense

on that point of arseholes as well i

think um what made you what made you ask

that

i just i just one of the things i i

could you know what it is i remembered

one day

you meet a lot of people and when you do

this podcasting thing and you you have

an initial perception of how they're

going to be

and then you meet them and sometimes you

know sometimes they're souls i actually

don't think i've had anyone on the

podcast that was an [ __ ] but i have

had experiences

i remember this one day i got in this

plane i think i was flying emirates or

virgin or something

um and in front of me i saw that guy

from

the food guy the guy that eats all the

food on tv someone give me his name oh

um

yeah yeah yeah yeah um everyone in the

podcast

man versus food guy yeah man versus food

i mean i don't know his name

yeah and i don't care about saying this

um and we

run this huge food channel at social

change so we have you know tens of

millions of followers on a food channel

so i text the food team and i'm like oh

my god he's on the plane they said i'll

go up go up and ask him a question which

is a question we always ask us

on our food channel so i went over to

ask him this question

he was sat in um business i sat in

business as well

and he's just he just he looks at me and

goes

listen give me a second okay and i'm

like whoa

so i walk back to my my chair and i have

to tell the 500 people

in this like company group oh so i went

up to him and this person that you all

absolutely love

i've he's just cussed me out um and he

will never know the impact he had

on me or the 500 people that i then told

and also the you know

hundreds of thousand people that i'm

telling right now um if you got to the

point though where you're brave enough

to call that sort of stuff out

because i think that is the important

thing when he's when he does it

to his face yeah for me that would be

like

ego because you go from you yeah it

would be like do you know who the [ __ ] i

am or it'd be like

why are you saying that for me the piece

was like

no reaction yeah because there was no

win there was no win

in me calling him out i wasn't going to

win so the win for me was saying okay no

worries and we're going back to my chair

and also not letting it ruin my day um

but

but i'm sure you the reason i asked you

the question is because you have tons of

guests

in your presenting career but also your

podcast when you encounter an [ __ ]

um i guess how'd you deal with it

you just know that you're there for a

stop and not stay i think and you

um does it break your heart a little bit

sometimes

um when it's someone that you uh admired

yeah i suppose so i suppose i don't

worry too much about it because i just

think you know what

you can you're just not for me and also

like

who am i to sort of judge whether their

behavior is arseholery if it's clearly a

rude and unfair and unkind absolutely

i i now feel like i'm 42 and i'm a

parent

and i want my kids to operate in a world

where

um they can be themselves and they can't

be

bullied or pushed around i think we're

i'm old enough now and i definitely

wasn't like this a few years ago where i

can hold my chin

up and say that behavior is really not

acceptable would you call someone yeah

you would but i wouldn't do it in an

arrogant look at me i'm a being a dick

where i just say listen

i just think that behavior isn't

acceptable and have you done that um

yeah

to someone someone i work with you

in your presenting career uh yeah name

and address

and actually do you know what you find

is that often i've done it twice and

both times they've gone

yeah i'm really sorry that is actually

unacceptable i mean we

we had an interesting experience because

my wife used to work in production

so heard she was a production secretary

which is not very high up the ladder of

people in television and i was a

presenter so

she would be looking after security

taxis

tickets logistics clothing

call times all the stuff that makes

television happen

but is not the glamorous side and the

number of times

i would say i met this person today

aren't they great and she'd be like

really and then we would meet those

people

and i'd be like oh yeah i think you know

my wife harriet

and they were like oh right yeah hi

because they would be you guys love to

come around sometime for some food and

harry's like that's

not how they were really when they

thought i was just sorting out their

travel

and that is the definition of an article

yes i think it is because you just treat

everyone the same man

and they're treating you well because

you can potentially benefit them in some

way

i don't know it's weird isn't it like

why i've got a job on the television why

treat me any differently because you're

all connected and you can

that is what really annoys me we see

that and i saw that in my business over

the years and i

i came to believe that even with me

leaving the business it won't break the

business

but i do believe that like so i believe

one person leaving a business doesn't

break it and you can apply this to your

relationships your life your friendship

circle

but an [ __ ] staying can me leaving

the business i don't actually think will

be as detrimental to a couple of

[ __ ] staying in the business not

that there are any but

um i know what you mean yeah don't you

think though

like this is like it sounds naive and

churlish and a bit

childish probably from a 42 year old

bloke that has a

decent career and runs a few businesses

but like i honestly think that we

do have the power to make the world

positive and happy

despite all the issues because all you

have to do is worry about your immediate

circle

and that is why i get frustrated with

people who spread negativity and

criticism and i just i've just got no

space in my life now for negativity from

people

because i just think if let's say that i

know seven people

and i just say you know i'm gonna really

radiate

a positive energy i'm gonna lift them up

i'm not gonna be critical i'm gonna do

everything i can to make them feel like

a million dollars

the only agreement is that they have to

do the same

and you say that to those people listen

i'm going to do this thing i'm going to

be really super positive and i'm going

to do everything i can to help you and

if you ever need something i'm going to

be the person that comes and helps you

out

all i'm asking is that you do it for the

people in your circle

be the change see how quick that would

radiate yeah so my seven

so if i go if each of them goes to seven

you know what i mean yeah no

and it just feels stupid doesn't mean

that's that's what karma is yeah you

know i don't believe in wishy-washy

karma isn't like oh if i help a lady

then someone's going to help me in the

future but i think

from a logical perspective if i help

everyone i encounter maybe they'll be

more helpful

and that can make its way back around to

maybe my niece

you know but you know so true i just

i can't see any i can't see any benefit

any benefit to criticism and negativity

and like

driving other people down someone that

get feels better for driving someone

else further down

is like for me the absolute epitome they

are the worst of them do you ever get

jealous

be completely honest uh yeah um

i get jealous but i only ever get

jealous through comparison and that is

ridiculous you know it's the nasty is it

the nasty jealous where you're like

why have they gotten yeah probably yeah

yeah but you've got but

i think that is innate i think that is

almost there i am giving up

responsibility again for someone that

talks about 100

responsibility but i think that it's

innate in human nature

to to compare and to contrast and look

at someone else

so it's not a very long experience for

me i will look at someone

and i'll go but hey listen i'm so happy

and i've got all this i'm gonna and

actually sometimes i look at life as a

graph

and you literally don't know where life

is gonna take you so let's say like

the people that i now sit with in a tv

studio

like um i sit with they say when i when

i had

robin van persie stephen jarrod and rio

ferdinand were all the pundits on bt

sport

there was a time where all three of

those were three of the most famous

footballers in the country

earning phenomenal sums of money

competing on the world stage

representing their country

and i was a a guy post

a level failure trying to sort of find a

job and earning six thousand pounds a

year and there was a time where they

were there and i was there

and our graphs over the time have done

whatever's happened

look where i've ended up sitting next to

them on a tv studio

now it may well be that they go up there

again and something happens to me and i

go down here or it might be that i do

that and they do that

but you never know where that graph is

going to go and that is what i think is

that for me is one of the most exciting

things about this world that we live in

like you are only one step away from a

phone call where someone goes hey guess

what

and your graph goes so don't worry about

where other people are on that graph

because it might be in five years time

you're right alongside them

i guess that's where that that hate a

lot of the hate comes from so if you

take the jealousy feelings that even you

have as you know one of the nicest

people i know

and you just you know times it by ten

but you know and that's the

you know people feel a certain way about

their lives and how their lives are

going

that's because it's it's chucked in our

faces all the time

yeah what is instagram if it isn't a

tool for comparison what is it

why are you having a great day and we i

and i'm we're jealous of that i'm not

jealous we're guilty of it making other

people jealous of what we do

but we went out for uh we went for a

couple of days away as a family to a

lovely hotel called clifton

and it was lovely but the kids for some

reason were just badly behaved and it

does happen sometimes and we had this

meal

it was breakfast actually and they were

like it took ages for the food to come

and

the kids were like climbing the wall and

that's having to say to the waiter at

least i'm really sorry but like we've

been waiting for 20 minutes which is

fine for me and my wife but the kids

yeah they need and it was a posh hotel

where you're trying to said you get to

just stay at the table sit and sit

nicely don't make too much noise

and then at the end of it i was

stressful man and i said hey i'll tell

you what the family

will want to know where we are so i'll

get my phone out and i go kids kids just

smile

and we take a photo and we put it we

have a family what's up group with

harriet's mum and dad my mum and dad all

the cousins all the aunts and uncles

right

we're all smiling everything looks great

just had a lovely breakfast at the hotel

i said

and then then we get loads of messages

back like from people like my sisters

are going oh you're

your life always looks perfect and my

brother going oh another great day for

you

and i think actually yes like i've just

given them an absolute

falsification of what my sunday morning

cleveland house was like

that was a stressful hour and i've taken

the one thing that wasn't stressful

why have i put that in the group why

haven't i just gone hey guys hope you're

having a good sunday call we've just had

a [ __ ] half an hour here having some

breakfast but hey don't we all

that's and that's what we all do all the

time why else do all the people you

follow on instagram

put the things they put out there i i've

you know i think the world has somewhat

flipped is flipping back the other way

in the sense that when we

all started instagram it was this new

thing you had these filters and it was

like a show

the best holiday you've ever had in your

life to the world that was kind of the

that's the thing you'd get the rewards

for and that represents

in terms of being able to relate to that

or it's like

0.00 of the viewer's life like most of

our lives the 99 of our lives as i've

said in this podcast before is like

eating the pot noodle in bed

and now i see that the win with personal

branding and building

um an instagram page is the antithesis

of showing that it's like

i've just woken up with my face covered

in spots in fact the last

you know two podcasts ago we had

christian here who's like a superstar

influencer entrepreneur and i was trying

to understand why her community

are so engaged with her so engaged with

her

versus even like even compared to mine

or other people's and it's because she

wakes up in the morning she goes

my face is covered in spots oh my god

i'm not gonna put the filter on today

and you see the spots on her face and

stuff like that and then she'll cry

on her instagram story because her you

know her best friend lost her mother and

you

really can resonate with that you can

and also the amount of supply

on social media of that realness is low

demand is super high because it

represents the 99 of our lives

supply is super low and uh and

people joe wicks is the same he he will

he will

tell you everything i feel like [ __ ]

today you know and people just

and that's the thing i think you can

form a bond with a real deep bond

so even as i reflect on my instagram now

i said to my team earlier this week i'm

like i need to like go on my instagram

story more

and do a lot of the stuff that i do on

the podcast which is just like telling

you the [ __ ] stuff too yeah

um and so i i say this yeah if you want

to build a personal brand i'm like you

know

you really need to get comfortable with

that make you happy though let's go back

to where we began

would you make me happy yeah because i

know

that it would not make me happy i my

instagram isn't a lie

it is real but it's real with the things

that i choose to share basically yeah do

you know what i mean

by the way i have no lunch can i knock

yourself down it's actually yeah

this one actually worked this month so

it's um what is it this one this is

not had one present for you though when

i saw that you've got huels

yeah it's just great i was panicking i'd

undone it and i was going to flip fuel

all over your lovely rug in here

doesn't matter that that would be a cool

piece of promo um nutritionally complete

drink yeah yeah yeah

i think it's great man so i've eaten

nothing today what's the time it's

vegan 20 past one so this is perfect for

me now this is my lunch

and my breakfast try let me know what

you think

this is my favorite flavor of all

that's good and if you have this all day

um which i don't know if that's to be

recommended but

all of your sort of essential minerals

are in there vitamins

high in protein so it's 20 grams of

protein at the same time slow releasing

carbs spill a bit on your really lovely

glass table it's fine don't mind

low sugar gluten free yeah it's great

that's nice it's lovely yeah

and i drink it because um because i skip

meals

that's how i first well i'm trying to

intermittently fast because i've seen

um other people's six packs on social

media and they make me feel at me

okay they make me feel like i just need

to

you know right why do you feel the need

to share more of yourself on instagram

like so yeah so what's the benefit the

benefit is if i share

more of my truth all the the tough stuff

which is pretty much why i started the

podcast in the first place

i feel that i'm helping a lot of people

and do i enjoy helping people and

getting

um and helping them overcome their

problems yes

yeah i mean you do that already on this

podcast yeah but i don't do it on

instagram

and i i think that do i want to have a

deeper connection with my audience on

instagram

yes what am i doing on instagram

predominantly just posting quotes to be

honest

so if i want to have a deeper connection

with my audience on instagram then i

should go deeper with them

yeah as i do on this podcast because the

podcast audience are like a cult

you know they're super engaged because

of the depth and the realness

so i think it would make me happy in the

long run there must be a reason i don't

do it

that's a good point this i mean it's

been a huge revelation for me doing a

podcast because

when you're a football presenter you

don't get nice messages

on instagram you don't get like an

engaged core saying