why am i doing this i'm doing this

because society wants me to do this i'm

doing this because my mates

want me to do this it's a [ __ ]

that's not going to happen and i think

it

you showed that little boy inside was

just like

ruined by it sorry it's still quite

emotional

[Music]

what an amazing story what a cruel

amazing twisting career

my next guest has one of the most

fascinating journeys through business

and through life

that i think i've ever heard she spent

her life surrounded by a couple of

people that that i actually consider to

be inspirations of mine one of them is

sir david brailsford who's been the sort

of elite performance coach and cycling

coach for

team sky which went on to win more than

they were ever expected to win

he's the i guess the author of this this

marginal gains thinking which

changed how business and sports teams

function the other person she was

surrounded by throughout her career is

steve peters who

a lot of you will know from the book he

authored the paradox which redefines

from a psychiatrist's point of view how

our mind works and where our behavior

comes from

and the other male figure in her life

that's important for the story you're

about to hear is her brother

david miller who was this incredibly

sort of

highly regarded cyclist british cyclist

who had this cruel twist to his career

where he got involved in the doping

scandal

which really left a stain on british

cycling as we know it

and david miller recounts the story of

him being sat in this

this cafe shop with david brailsford and

being tapped on the shoulder by three

men wearing suits who would then raid

his house and find syringes and that was

one of the key moments in british

sporting history where

i think in many respects things have

never been the same and we always view

our elite performers with an element of

skepticism but this is fran's story

and fran's story is one of tenacity it's

one of success

it's one of jumping off cliffs and

figuring out how to build your skydiver

as you fall

her story is inspiring it's peculiar

she went from starting her own business

to spending i think 12 years that team

sky worked her way up to the very very

top

and when it became team ineos she became

the ceo leading a predominantly male

dominated industry and then out the blue

in the middle of a pandemic

when retail was on its ass she decided

that she was going to change lanes and

become the ceo of bell staff which is a

brand

that has been struggling that's been

making losses and then was then

kicked up the rear end by covid she's

brave

she is unusual she's inspiring

she's tough she describes herself or at

least she

respects the idea of being a difficult

woman something we'll talk about

so without further ado i'm stephen

butler and this is the dire of a ceo

i hope nobody is listening but if you

are then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

fran i i've done a lot of stalking of

your your history your past your

professional

career and uh i was stalking your

twitter feed the other day

and i saw a quote that you'd um you'd

written i guess

in in honor of your brother um david

who is a a world renowned professional

incredibly accomplished cyclist and the

quote said following a boy who loved it

so much he got absorbed into the fabric

of it and has spent a lifetime carrying

the weight

of the cruelty wonder brilliance and

tragedy it would bring him

um is ultimately what got you into the

world of cycling

i was slightly taken aback by some of

those words

cruelty wonder brilliance and tragedy

can you explain why you chose those

words

oh it's a big opening question um

yeah i mean listen my brother was was

unease a very

talented guy he was we were so when we

were about

10 and 12 my parents got divorced my dad

went to live in hong kong and my mom

stayed in the uk i stayed with my mum my

brother went with my dad

and so when we were like kids we'd cross

in the air so he'd come home from hong

kong i'd go out to

he'd come home i'd go out and he had

nothing to do when he was here because

we'd moved so we had no

he had no friends around so my mom

entered him into a cycling club

um and he'd go and he'd do the time

trials he was super good at it

by the literally from like 15 to 19 he'd

gone from never really riding a road

bike to being

like courted by nine of the biggest

teams in the sport

and he got signed very young by a big

french team

and they kind of made all these promises

to my mum about it and he was obviously

you know he was a kid he was

desperate to win the tour de france and

to go and fulfill his dreams and he

totally fell in love with the sport and

he was completely enamored by it and in

the space of five years he'd gone from

this

excited talented you know

brilliant kid to this damaged

incredibly sad deep deeply deeply shamed

young man and it was like

how has a sport done that like how is

this is

it it's a game right like sports a game

it's entertainment

how is that something that's

fundamentally to entertain people

basically ruined him like taking him

down to the core of who he was and it

just

and then he built himself back up and

he's you know he's gone on to do

incredible things but it was just a

the sport has had this unbelievable

impact on my life on my brother's life

on my life on

everything the decisions i've made and

everything else i guess that's why i

chose those words

give me some detail on you talked about

the sport bringing him down to his core

and ruining him what caused that

ah so he went into the sport in 1998

he turned pro which for any of your

listeners who know anything about

cycling was the festina year

so it was the year of the big fastina

scandal where they raided all the hotel

rooms and the guys all kind of protested

and sat down on the road and

only a few of the sort of teams were

able to finish because so many guys got

pulled out of the race

and it was it was the dawning of the epo

era

so it was the era where they discovered

effectively athletes and coaches had

discovered

that you could use epo in the same way

they used build to use altitude training

to perform to

increase physical performance um and it

was just a transformative drug

it was they couldn't detect it they

couldn't test for it and they brought in

some interventions like a hematocrit

test so if your hematocrit went over 450

you'd be pulled out of racing but it was

a it was a health check it wasn't a

doping check

and it was rife basically so when he

this young sort of

dreaming kid went into the sport he he

genuinely thought you could do it clean

you wouldn't ever have to cheat i don't

even think he really knew that much

about doping at that point in his life

and pretty quickly he realized that

actually

most the guys at the very top were

doping that the doping was endemic

that the expectation was you were dope

that that was what you would

need to do if you wanted to be a

professional and you wanted to be any

good

and he resisted it for a really long

time like he he was a time trialer which

is you know race against the clock

basically only racing yourself and so he

really stuck to his time trialling

because he was like i can do that

like with the technology with

aerodynamics with

focus on my training it's a shorter

period of time there's less requirement

to kind of

be as cardiovascularly supreme as the

guys who are trying to win the tour are

um and so he did very very well time

trialling went to his first tour de

france and won yellow

like day one um and but but what was

happening was behind the scenes

this sort of erosion of his belief that

he would be able to do it clean his

his recognition that actually if he if

he really wanted to take it seriously

and try and win the tour

he was going to have to cheat the people

around him that the kind of

network and the framework around him was

people who weren't looking out for him

weren't thinking what's best for him

weren't trying to work out

how to make help him fulfill his

potential they were trying to work out

how to

get him good enough to make enough money

to win you know for them as a business

he was a commodity in their business um

and i'd like i haven't actually ever

told this story but francois mcgrane who

owned coffee's which is like a

company that basically does telephone

loans i don't know what they do now

probably

you know online loans but um he had he

met my mum so when we had all these

teams that were sort of courting david

he met with my mum and he promised her

that he would look after him like

promise looked looked her in the eyes

and said i'll look after him and and yet

he did nothing

like he he built a team that was allowed

to just get on with it he sort of closed

his eyes to it

and actually when the big investigation

into cofferdie started it was francois

mcgrane who effectively

called out my brother he was like i

think moncuti is probably clean but

david miller

i wouldn't put my hand on my heart for

him and it was like you [ __ ] do

you know i mean like

yeah and you and he he's 24 years old

like

what he's the only exposure he's had the

professional support is your team

so if that's what's happened it's your

team and p don't get me wrong david

absolutely has to take responsibility

for his decisions in that

but i for one know that when i was like

19 to 25 i wasn't making the best

decisions i've made in my life

and i had some influential people around

me who had they told me to do things or

if

and it's that insidious thing isn't it

it's a bit like kind of

i was listening to a book the other day

about um

decision making and you know how if you

look at like nazi germany and people say

oh they were just following orders

and there was this big study done

apparently where they put people in a

room and they told them

like there's going to be some there's

going to be a student in there it's a

study i can't really anything with my

gran or someone who did the study

and you're going to press this button

don't worry because

to shock them and the shock's going to

get bigger and bigger and bigger and

it's like and

65 of the people would have pressed the

button that would have effectively

killed the person in the other room

and it's like what and that's the human

condition right so this idea that we

that we would make a better decision or

we'd make a better choice or that we'd

do it differently

people seem to impose that on guys who

decide to cheat in sport or decide to

make these like well

how dare you make that decision it's

like if you were in an environment in a

culture

where that becomes the norm where that

becomes what people do

this idea that you're going to be the

one person who and don't get me wrong i

know there are other people who do that

and

fair play to them that isn't that's

impressive you know that you've been

brought up in a certain way to enable

you to make those decisions

but david was he was fragile he was

impressionable

he was a dreamer he was doing something

he'd always wanted to do

he was passionate and desperate

desperate desperate to

to be a success and i think he just got

taken down the wrong path

you know and you do you feel like you

went through that with him

as a close family

um i'm trying to understand the impact i

had on you being the sister and i know

you

you guys are very close yeah i mean the

impact it had on me was i was

he never he never came to he went to my

mum and told her that he was dating and

and they

they they sort of she just said well

just stop just come home like don't

worry about actually you know sort of at

the very beginning he said

there's a lot of drugs and my mom was

like well just come home go to art

school don't worry about it it's just

cycling

um and yet he stayed and he persisted

and then i think when he

was in 2001 when he eventually made the

decision to kind of

cross the line as it were he he had he

spoke to my mom i think

in that period and she was just like you

you know you have

you have to stop you have to come home

and he was like no i want to do you know

i want i want to be successful i want to

go on this journey

he never had that conversation with me

all i ever saw was the kind of

it was like an erosion of him do you

know me it's like i could tell something

was going on i wasn't an idih i mean

it's like

he's probably he's probably cheating but

he we had all been indoctrinated into it

as well it was like well that's kind of

you turn a blind eye you kind of think

well you know he's

he's doing really well he's you know on

the cover of all the magazines he seems

happy-ish and it was only when he he'd

come home in the off-season

and he'd come come and stay with me and

my mates living in london

and he would he would drink so heavily

that you'd be like

okay this isn't normal you're a

professional athlete and he would the

the depressions he'd sink into and the

self-loathing that he that would come

out and it's like in vino veritas you

know that kind of

this and i'd be like what on earth is

going on here

and then eventually it kind of you i

realized what was happening and i kind

of

felt responsible for never stepping in

and saying something and never being

like you don't need to do this i was

just like

well you know if you're happy and you're

enjoying it and you're doing well

who am i to judge kind of thing um so i

think as a family

it kind of bonded and pulled us apart

like we kind of

we all turn a blind eye to it i think

we've all got our demons to deal with

from that perspective um my dad

i think was had a very different view of

it all my brother and my dad sort of

you know have have an ongoing difficult

relationship my mum and my brother are

very close i'm very close to my dad and

my mum but you know so

as a family we've kind of it it's

definitely created divisions

because everyone had a different view of

it and then in terms of the impact on me

i went into cycling i ran my own cycling

agency i was working in the cycling

industry i totally rode the coattails of

my brother's success

and i was like [ __ ] okay now it's all

gonna come crashing like he got arrested

and

put in prison and you know i was like oh

god this is not ideal

and i literally remember speaking to him

afterwards and he'd just come out of

you know 48 hours in custody and he was

like

and i remember it being like a week and

a half before the tour and he said to me

don't worry france um they're still

gonna let me ride the tour

you know you're like oh it still makes

me want to cry because it's like david

they're not gonna let you ride at all

that's not gonna happen and i think it

you show that little boy

inside it was just like ruined by it

sorry it's still

quite emotional but yeah so it just it

just impacted everything it impacted all

my decisions because at that point i was

then like

[ __ ] now i've got to go into the office

the next day and i've got to stand in

the velodrome events and

i'm david i'm not david miller's sister

the kind of glory

front cover of the magazine i'm that i'm

the sister of this

shamed cheating lying horrible human

being who

no one likes anymore and who has

disgraced british cycling and is is a

you know he he's like a complete social

pariah

and i'm like oh [ __ ] okay now i've still

got to go and do my job and did you feel

that

you felt your judgment and yeah

massively people would re and it was in

the days of forums you know like

my forums were a really big deal and i'd

be like okay i'm just going to have a

little bit of a look on a forum and see

what people are saying

and i'd see people i work with

commenting you know people who

were at the velodrome who were like

doing the timing at my events or

and they all you know literally like

people wishing him dead

but you know it was just like it wasn't

cool and

yeah i really felt i felt it for him i

didn't i wasn't embarrassed because i

was like

you know it is what it is he's made a

set of decisions he's paying the price

for it

um but it was at that point sort of

about six months after that i was like

okay i

probably can't represent him anymore

because if i have to have another

conversation with a journalist an

ignorant journalist about

this kind of binary right or wrong

conversation

where you're like this is not how life

works i'm gonna end up punching someone

in the face so i should probably stop

doing that

speaking of punching people in the face

no um i had it just that felt like a

good

turn towards one of the things that i

saw you share online which was this

article about being a difficult woman

and the importance of

um dispelling this sort of like niceness

aura that women typically um

are associated with in business that i

think the article was suggesting holds

them back

how important has that been especially

you know

when you were dealing in an industry

which is pretty much full of men and you

got to the very very top as the ceo of

ineos how important was it to

be willing to punch people in the face

being a little bit difficult at times

as is such an interesting question

because that whole being a difficult

woman

i think is the older i've gotten the

more i've kind of explored feminism and

explored kind of

the sort of female condition the human

condition it's like

women are judged very differently for

for behaviors that in men would be seen

as completely normal so

you know there's a sort of famous kind

of meme that's the sort of you know

men are assertive women are chippy you

know men are confident women are

arrogant you know it's like

the same behavior gets viewed very

differently to a very different lens

i've never filtered myself it's not been

anyone who's ever met me knows that i

don't really come with a filter

and i think it's really really important

that young women

recognize that they don't have to apply

a filter you don't have to be the quiet

one in the room you don't have to

i remember reading um cheryl sandberg's

book about lean in and it was like

um you know when young women will come

into a meet room and they won't sit at

the table like

they physically won't sit at the table

they'll sit back at the sides and i was

like [ __ ] off who does that

and then i'd go to meetings and i'd be

like i've noticed that like the

19 20 21 year old younger women in the

room they'd wait for the guys to sit

down

they'd be like what the [ __ ] are people

why are people doing that

and it you just until you realize it's

happening you don't realize it's

happening

and so yeah i've always felt quite

strongly that you just need to be

yourself

be confident be willing to get get told

you're a [ __ ] get told you're and don't

get wrong when i was younger i was

actually a bit of a [ __ ] i probably

i probably didn't um measure that

behavior i was a bit like well it's just

who i am and everyone needs to suck that

up and actually

you still have to be polite and have

manners and you still have to recognize

that being aggressive

is actually just sometimes being

aggressive it's not being assertive

and that balance i think i've learned as

i've got older but i think it's

yeah i think women are judged totally

differently for behaviors that men would

be absolutely

it would it would almost be uh sort of

respected in a man for certain behaviors

and in women it's it's reviled there'll

be there'll be young women listening to

this

and they'll be thinking you know i'd

love to be like that fran and i'd love

to be a bit more you know assertive and

etc etc but i just you know it's just

not who i am and so

kind of the question that popped into my

mind was where did that you know some

might see it as confidence but it's like

a confidence in being your true self

right

where did that do you know where that

came from in you was it

you know is there experience is it

something happening in the household is

that your mother was

taught you that behavior your father

yeah i think it's probably half nature

half nurture like i think i

i you know my mum tells a story about

when i was little and i said

you know i'd just literally go off and

speak to people like she she'd be sat at

you know the bar you know on a holiday

and she'd want to know what's going on

with a couple over there she'd be like

francis go and ask them what they're

doing you might be like okay

and off i'd go and chat to them so i

think i've always been very innately

confident and that doesn't

that's never gone away um but equally i

think

i've been very lucky i've been very

blessed i've worked with people

and in and around people where i've been

allowed to be myself i've been allowed

to kind of grow up and make mistakes and

fail and be a bit of an idiot and get

told you're being a bit of an idiot and

not

not have that be a judgement upon me and

limit me

um and i think it's really interesting

that kind of you know being assertive or

being

being your true self has become a bigger

and bigger thing that people talk about

and actually being your true self

doesn't mean you have to be assertive

and confident it means you have to be

your true self

and for a lot of people that is a bit

more insecure or a bit more

and that's fine but you can bring that

to the table you can be an emotional

person you can be

lack a bit of self-esteem and just be

honest about that so for me i think it's

just

partially how i was brought up but more

the people i have been surrounded by on

the journey of my life and career

i've been incredibly blessed that they

have allowed me to

make a lot of mistakes and correct and

course correct me

as i've gone on that that point about

being assertive and being direct and

being

open and honest you know what um i was

actually chatting yesterday about one of

the

how i've changed over the last 10 years

from like the kid at 18 to the kid at

28.

and the the key thing i said to my team

is like the big change that i've seen on

myself is i'm

way more direct yeah and i'm not sure

why i'm doing that i'm like i don't know

whether

it's because i've got so many things to

do that i'm trying to save time at all

times

um i'm way more honest with my feedback

and there's this sort of fine line

between being an [ __ ]

and being honest and direct and trying

to be time efficient and like realizing

that

sometimes your feedback or the way you

say things might hurt people's

feelings but that's secondary to what

we're doing here um

how have you toed that line i imagine

from what you've said it's more

difficult as a woman

to to because people will you know

they'll they'll determine the same

behavior to be a really negative thing

but how do you toe the line between

being like direct and firm which is so

important in my opinion

when you're dealing with teams and

especially if you're dealing with teams

of uh

you know high testosterone testosterone

men how do you toe that line and

and also i guess the more important

question for me is do you agree

that it's an important trait to have

okay so have you read a book called

radical camber

it's up there on my bookshelf somewhere

but i've not read it yet okay so

yes i do think being honest is important

i think being a [ __ ] to people is

not acceptable

and so i think i i think honestly can

get veiled

sorry being a [ __ ] can get failed by

i'm being honest right

like well i'm just being honest and it's

feedback and you should take it it's

like

one of the sort of best lessons i've

ever been taught

and one of the most influential people

in my life by a mile is steve peters

um he's a forensic psychiatrist yeah and

he

always says like you have to be

compassionate like

even if you're telling someone they're

losing their job or you know if you're

having to give someone really honest be

compassionate be be sensitive to the

fact that

you're going to get a better response

from someone if you're just nice to them

you know

you can say some really really shitty

things to people and

it get a horrible response or you can

say shitty things

but get a really positive response back

because you do it in a different way so

i think

it's really crucial to be honest it's

really crucial to be authentic

but that doesn't mean you get a license

to be a [ __ ]

and have you is there a place

for aggression and anger and

being annoyed in business in your view

no not not ever uh well you can

you can feel those things but i don't

think you can inflict those things on

other people no

i don't think that's acceptable it's um

it's remarkable how many of the world's

most sort of admired leaders when you

read their biographies and stuff you

find out how

much of a [ __ ] they are like steve

jobs was a good example where

i was told you know from a friend that

they basically had to put him in his own

building and warn people that worked in

that building that you know

the way steve was and elon musk in his

biography is

is very very similar but uh the reason i

asked you about radical canada is

when i read it it made a lot of sense to

me about

about people like that so that she

basically describes this quadrant where

effectively you've got

how much you care about people and how

sort of willing and honest

you're able to be and so if you're very

very honest but you don't care about

them at all

then you you're basically an arrogant

[ __ ] and if you really really care

about them but you're really really

honest

then you're radically candid but if you

really really care about them and you're

not honest

then you're kind of it's almost like a

malignant empathy do you know me it's

like i'm going to be really nice to you

but because i'm not going to be honest

with you you're not going to develop

and so that for the first time and she

said in a business

it's better it's way better as much as

it's counterintuitive

to be the arrogant [ __ ] because

actually the feedback is what's

important

so if people are getting the feedback

and they're being told the truth they

are like

some people might be able to handle it

but the people who can handle it will

develop and get better

it's worse to be empathetic and not be

honest than it is to be an arrogant

[ __ ]

and i was like oh that's why there's so

many arrogant [ __ ] in the world

because actually it does work like on

the and genius

you know it forgives a lot right when

people are geniuses they can behave

very differently and they get away with

it because they're geniuses and

there is merit in that and i think if

people are very very very honest with

you and give you brutal feedback

as long as you're like able to take it

on board you'll get better

but if someone's lying to you and saying

you're doing a great job stephen don't

worry about it it's absolutely fine

because they don't want to hurt your

feelings you're never going to develop

that's true you you switched from

working

over to bell staff um quite relatively

recently

um and i was reading i think i was

listening to one of the the podcasts

you've done and you talked about how

you'd worked in cycling pretty much your

whole life it was your

pretty much your everything in terms of

your professional experience um i've

also recently quit my job

and uh how does it feel uh everything

you feel everything right you feel

you know it's bittersweet you feel

excited on one hand you're unsure about

the future but i trust myself enough to

know that i'll figure it out because i

always have

um but yeah all feelings um i guess my

question for you is

and the bit that i found particularly

interesting is people

will do a thing for ten years for five

years whatever and then they'll tell

themselves that they are that thing

they'll like give themselves the label i

work in cycling i'm a cycling person

yeah it seems to be incredibly difficult

especially if they've been in that

industry for a long time to then

take on a different label you're now

working in fashion and it comes with a

whole new set of challenges completely

outside of your

comfort zone to some extent in some ways

how did you make that switch

how did it feel tell tell me all about

it um

it's again i'm going to reference steve

peters but i remember because i was

so wedded to my job in cycling like i

lived and breathed it i

loved it i cared deeply about the people

it like had this

it was so wrapped up in my identity but

i hadn't

necessarily got a huge amount of

satisfaction out of the job over the

last two or three years

for a whole host of reasons nothing to

do with the team just personal

development wise

and every time i spoke to steve you'd be

like well then why don't you just leave

i'd be like

because i don't know who i am if i leave

the cycling team do i mean and

that was a much longer conversation than

that but what effectively i was saying

was i don't know who i am if i'm not

that

and he he said over and over again

you will be whoever you go on to be

that's not going to change you are still

there

you're letting this thing influence all

these views about yourself you're

letting it influence what you

your value your worth your you know your

sort of substance your contribution to

life like

you're letting it's a job it's like it's

a job and i was like you don't get it

you don't understand it's more important

than that and you know what when i got

asked to go and do bell stuff and i left

and it broke my heart like i

cried my eyes out and i started a bell

staff and i

i sat feel awful saying this but within

48 hours i was like

oh my god i love it here and i love the

people here and this is brilliant i'm so

excited and actually

it is just the job that was just the job

and yes i miss it and yes it was

incredible and yes i

loved the people and i still love the

people but it's just the job

it's not my family it's not who i am

it's not my identity it's just

a part of my life and i'll be eternally

grateful for having done it but now i've

got a new challenge and i was like

i'm really pleased i did it when i did

because everyone i think

had been saying to me for a long time

you know once you leave you'll be like

oh i should have done this five years

ago

and i don't feel like that at all i feel

you know i did that for the right amount

of time

i loved it i've banked it moving on to

something else

and it's that point there about thinking

that that job was your identity that i

think really like holds people down

yeah um because you're right jobs are

they're fat friends they're community

they are purpose yeah

as you say they're your identity um

and that's dangerous like that's

dangerous you know because actually

they're not they're not they're not your

identity and no matter how much you love

it

no matter how passionate you are about

it if you

it then this would be the lesson i would

sort of give to myself the sort of

it doesn't matter it's a job you're

being paid to do it it's a job and

and i would have railed against that

even a year ago

like no it isn't it's more important

than that and you know as soon as you

as soon as i left i was like yesterday

and my brother always you say to me your

team aren't your family

your team aren't your family and i never

really understood what you meant because

i thought well they are my family

like you know what i mean i love them

they are my family and they leave you

like oh no what he means is your family

are there forever your family are

wedded and you can't un-pick your family

they they're something that's whereas

when you leave a job

you take away the memories you take away

the happy times to take away the good

stuff

but you're the fabric of who you are

doesn't change

and that's what i try and do i just

finished writing my book on there's a

chapter on this idea of labels and me

trying to resist these labels

to make sure that i continue on my

journey of challenge and keep myself you

know stimulated and i don't get to

you know a certain age and feel like i'm

having a midlife crisis because i don't

know who i am and i can't leave and i

don't have any skills

um and to really sort of realize that

the label i have

is me it's like steven i'm a guy with a

bunch of skills and experiences

and i can apply these skills and

experiences to a bunch of different

challenges

i'm not social media ceo you know what i

mean yeah and that i find really

liberating

so i quit i started djing we're doing

this pokemon this theatrical play i'm

just trying to do all of the things that

i think i shouldn't be able to do right

but speak to me about the challenge so

you you decide to take this job at bell

staff and it is a big challenge

it's it's widely reported that bell's

staff has been it's

had you know struggled across the years

it was recent it was acquired and i

think 2017.

it was making losses then and the losses

of i think narrowed over the last couple

of years to some extent but it's a big

challenge right

a big challenge it would have been much

easier to take a different job

so first and foremost i didn't take it i

was i literally

had a conversation with my chairman

ineos um

about you know maybe maybe over the next

couple of years i want to think about

moving on and doing something different

and

when we when dave b comes back from the

tour this was in september so when he

comes back from the tour at the end of

the season i think

i'd like to sit down and have a chat

with my chairman and my boss dave

about my future that was the sum total

of my conversation

and literally a week later i got a call

saying jim would like you to be the ceo

of old stuff

and you know with the best one in the

world when jim ratcliffe asks you to do

something you don't kind of go

let me have a think about that and i

just thought okay well what an

opportunity and and i went for it

but i didn't i wasn't looking to change

i wasn't i hadn't like planned to move

on

so that was in some ways whilst it was

quite traumatic sort of three or four

weeks of

because i literally i got phoned like on

the 16th of september and i was enrolled

on the first of october

wow so it was like yeah like two weeks

of just why did you want to have the

conversation though when they've

got back because i wanted to so i wanted

to i'd sort of been thinking like i said

about the conversation with steve about

kind of

i'm not sure if i'm happy doing this job

anymore and i'm not sure if i'm

fulfilled

i've kind of reached the point sort of

middle of last year

where i was thinking you know what i do

need to start thinking about my future

in my life and my career and i don't

know whether that's always going to be

in cycling and i don't know whether the

ceo of the cycling team

is 100 y1 so i wanted to speak to my

chairman first to kind of sound him out

and then when dave gets back from racing

i don't want to interfere with the

racing

have a conversation about my future so i

just literally put it on the rate the

radar of the german

i'd probably be a little bit out of

frustration for myself as well but like

i want to

feel like i'm moving this on because

otherwise i'm going to sit and not do

anything with it do you know what i mean

i'm going to

did you feel stagnant yeah in the role

is that the main the crux of what you're

getting at what was the

person if i can relate uh i think

i felt so i had done

what was effectively 20 years in pro

cycling it would like you say it was all

i knew it's all i'd done

i know everybody in it pretty much you

know i've been in and around it my whole

life i'm david miller's little sister

it's like you know part of my dna we got

we and i loved being part of team sky

like we did that for 10 years and it was

i sort of always say cup in the middle

like blue blue and i absolutely loved it

and then when skye said they were out at

the end of 2018 i was like right i'm

done i'm out of here i'm not going to do

this anymore so i went straight to baby

i was like

it's been amazing i've loved it but i'm

gonna once the team

stops being sky i'm gonna go and he was

like okay cool

i don't think he believed me he was like

okay cool and then

we he said to me look would you help at

least find a new sponsor let's see if we

can find a new sponsor he's a bugger

like that so i was like okay i'll try

and help you find a new sponsor and then

i'll move on

and then you know february comes 2019

you know he's he meets jim

jim decides that he wants to acquire the

team you know

he jim's arguably one of the most

successful businessman in the world

we went and met with him and talked

about you know the design of the kit and

everything else and i was like i'm gonna

get sucked into it

um and then and then one of the other

senior managers in the team decided to

leave and go and work for another team

and debbie was like would you stay you

can be ceo

which was what i really wanted to be

it's a massive opportunity and i was

like okay i'll stay

and i think that was the point of the

decision there that i was like

you know this is a big career decision

to me that i'm staying again i told on

my mates i was going to leave i was like

you know this is it this time this time

i'm going they're like

okay um and so i

stayed at ineos and then we worked on

the one five nine project

so elliott kip togues up to our marathon

and dave obviously was the project lead

on it all he was the ceo

my boss um but he very sadly got

prostate cancer

in that period so he was off doing the

tour de france then he had to go and

have surgery

and so i took on like a deputy ceo role

kind of delivering the sort of vision

that he'd come up with and he structured

all the performance team but then i was

doing the delivery of the event

everything from kind of working with the

london marathon team to

supporting the performance guys to doing

all the engagement piece and everything

else

and i loved it as i felt like i was

working 18 hours a day for like

what was about five six weeks in the

build up to the first of all the test

event and then through into the actual

event

and i just loved it totally different

totally new challenge

new people different approach fresh it

was

i was like i was on literally cloud nine

i couldn't have loved it more

and i was working so hard like i was

literally crippled by it

but i loved it and i came out the other

side of it not so much just because

we've done it obviously i mean that was

incredible

but it just really made me realize that

i was just going through the motions in

in the cycling job i was just i was

ticking over i was really comfortable

i was good at it i loved it i was happy

i liked the people but i wasn't growing

i wasn't developing i wasn't learning

new stuff and i wasn't kind of and i'd

been going at a million miles an hour

you know sort of in the team like on all

these stuff where i was

helping other people develop and helping

other people achieve their potential and

helping other people kind of

you know rescue their reputations or

enhance their

and i was a bit like what do i want to

be doing like why am i

i'm not none of this has been about me

and even actually cycling is a little

bit about david you know what i mean i

was on kind of this journey to sort of

save young british talent from going

through what david went through and it's

like actually what do i want to do

maybe i want to do something different

and that just

planted a seed really and i think i

probably went this way to the gym and

you know if i'm honest i went because i

thought i want to go and do something

different i'm ready i'm ready to move on

i'm ready to do something that's not

this anymore

and it was all it was almost like a kind

of involuntary i think everything else

about me was like just stay because it's

comfortable and it's easy and

you get good money and it's you know

nothing's gonna nothing but that's gonna

happen

but my like soul was like you've got to

you've got to go and do something else

now

and it was literally like in the space

of two weeks it was like boom i'm i'm

out of here

so it was that see it almost identical

to me in the sense of something niggling

at you

and then for me there was like a trigger

moment where i was like

i was like sent an email

yeah yeah yeah and then you just send it

and then but that idea of being able to

throw yourself into uncertainty it's

like throwing yourself

off a cliff when you were like cushy in

the house on the side of the cliff and

you was like oh my god i'm gonna jump

and you're throwing yourself off into

the unknown in in the hope

that so you'll build your glider as you

fall and then land somewhere better

and a lot of people can't do that like

most people can't do that

how do you how did you feel though about

because because i found it really

traumatic

like i kind of i felt like oh first of

all i felt quite out

it was like i'm out of control of this

now i literally said goodbye to my team

who i'd worked with for 10 years and

got on a train woke up the next day and

went into bell stuff and like hi i'm

your new ceo

and i and that the trauma of kind of all

of it

it felt i had to move out my house i had

to go and do

say goodbye to people do have a

different email had the same email my

whole life

like all that kind of stuff it just

doesn't shouldn't be that important but

felt really significant

how did you feel did you find it

traumatic or not so i i'd already i'd

quit

business when i that i was my baby as

well when i was i started business 18

quit that one when i was 21

so i'd been through it once before so

when i earlier when i said the key thing

for me was trusting myself i've done

this before

i know the feelings i know that i don't

know what my future holds

but when i did that when i was 21 it led

to this even bigger business that was

200 times bigger and 200 times more

successful so that was

that's been this guiding thing in my

life like i dropped out of university

after one lecture and it worked out

so when you have those case studies you

think you know what i have no idea what

the future holds

but i'll back myself to figure it out

now and um

that's because i've done it like three

times before so

i imagine the next time in the future if

ever that you decide to

jump ship and build stuff or whatever

you'll have that case study

or that evidence in yourself that you've

been yeah and that that i think will

calm

you a little bit the first time i quit i

was all kinds of emotions and worrying

and not sure what i was now and all

those things but

slightly easier the third time i'm a bit

of a prolific quitter i think it's a

really underrated skill

yeah people talk a lot about starting as

if it's the be all and then and end all

of success but quitting is the thing you

do right before right you start

something new so yeah yeah

i've been a heel fan for a long time as

you obviously know by now but in the

last six months i've got a

real opportunity to get to know the

people to get to know the ceo of huel

which is james to get to know the

founder which is julian

the teams that agonize over the

ingredients that go into these amazing

recipes

and i can honestly say with my hand on

my heart my appreciation

and admiration for huel and its people

has multiplied by a factor of 10

because and this is these singularities

not only are they nice people

but because i've seen firsthand how much

they are non-negotiable

about the values of fuel they will not

compromise they will not compromise on

the the goodness of the ingredients that

goes into the products the amount of

proteins and minerals and these things

regardless if they can't get to where

they want to get to with the products

they will cancel the product i've tasted

products and they said we've not managed

to make it this

we've not delivered on our promise of

veganism we've not added enough fiber

so we're canceling it and that sort of

non-negotiable set of values

has made me realize that they have my

back when i choose you

i was reading about this winning

behaviors role you took on which is a

very curious title

yes it is what was your remit as the

head of winning behaviors that team

ineos

so it was it was when it was team sky

okay um same time um

so basically 2010 we first started

racing we started the team and he was

begun the journey of starting the team

in 2008 off the back of the beijing

games

started racing in 2010 we were [ __ ] like

embarrassingly [ __ ]

and we've been like smoking mirrors and

like you know we're kind of we had the

big bus and we had all the money and we

were sponsored by sky and it's like oh

we're going to be amazing and we were

rubbish

so we totally reset everything and dave

beats be fair to him he's like a

master of okay we're going this way it's

not working we're going somewhere else

but he's

he's incredible assay and so he totally

shifted the way that we're going to run

the team

we took a totally different approach we

started to be very successful in 2011

we'd obviously set the objective when we

announced the team that we were going to

try and win the tour de france with a

clean british rider

in five years and that was in start

2010.

bradley won the tour in 2012. so within

the space of two years

three years effectively we've done it

the following year

chris froome won it and we had gone from

being this team that was like

on a mission like heads down arses up

and we were going like there was nothing

was going to stop us we were full-on

and so when people sign up to that you

know people are signing contracts in

2010 with a team that doesn't exist

that has never raced on the road before

that comes from a track background

that's full of brits who aren't

historically

that famous for road cycling they were

they were signing a kind of you know

they were they were adventurers right

they were like these bold ambitious this

is a bit batshit crazy but we'll do it

when people were signing contracts at

the end of 2013 they were signing with a

team that had won the tour de france

twice that was

arguably the most dominant team in the

sport that had gone on you know sort of

achieved this inc

these incredible feats and they had a

different expectation of what they were

joining to what we were

and we suddenly realized that actually

if we were serious about

continuing and continuing to be

successful codifying what

got us where we were was going to be

crucial and we'd also seen

for those of you listeners who are

cycling fans we'd had the bradley

wiggins and chris rooms kind of

divide so brad had obviously come first

in 2012 but freemiu had come second

bradley didn't even bradley never rode

the tour again so bradley didn't ride in

2013

from he did and he went on to win and he

started to see this divide in a team

where it's like well i'm team bradley or

i'm team freeman is like

no check your paycheck your team sky and

that

that kind of actually who are we what do

we stand for what do we expect from

people

what do we need to be able to do to be

the best in the world of this

needed codifying and it needed it needed

a way of a sort of

charter almost to tell people this is

how you're going to have to do this and

really it was about eradicating losing

behavior it was about saying to people

bitching backstabbing saying you're team

through me or your team brad or you know

criticizing people behind their back or

whatever

that's not acceptable but you being head

of losing behavior would have been [ __ ]

so we called it

[Music]

so it was all about creating a set of

behaviors for the organization

that enabled us to say to people this is

what it means to put this jersey on

this is what it means to be a part of

this team it's not just about

you know the glory and the winning this

is hard graft this is

you know it it was arguably the hardest

thing i've ever done you know working in

that environment it's

it is unrelenting it is i mean it's

brilliant and it's

amazing and incredibly good fun but it's

hard hard work

and you've got to go all in you know

this isn't this isn't for the

faint-hearted

and so the whole winning behavior thing

was about creating an environment where

we could give people

the parameters that we expected them to

live by but also ensure that they felt

supported

safe able to deliver their very best in

an environment that is actually very

high pressure

so that was my job effectively helping

dave create the behaviors in the first

instance with the whole team

and then helping keep them alive within

the business what were some of those you

mentioned a couple of them there about

not being a backstabber and

understanding the importance of hard

work what were some of the other

um let's just focus on losing behaviors

some of the some of the traits or

some of the threats to success that

you'd see in the team

i'm thinking this from an organizational

standpoint as like yeah that's worked in

business

so we separated them into five different

areas we had self

team um communication continuous

improvement

and uh what was the other one

oh it's gone anyway so quickly how

quickly you move on right

um but the the so they were t itself was

all about identifying your own

managing your own emotions being in

control of your own emotions so a losing

behavior of that would be

losing your [ __ ] you know being

aggressive and arrogant with people

not being able to recognize when you

were too emotional to be in a high

performance environment we have this

the whole chimp model you know steve's

philosophy around that is there's

nothing wrong with being emotional

there's nothing wrong with having a

chimp

but you have to know when to get out the

room if that's what's going on don't

bring your emotion into an environment

where you're expecting people to perform

at their very best

so that kind of management itself

absolutely critical

and then team was all about the impact

that you have as a

team member you know i think people kind

of think teams this kind of

static thing that you create a great

team and that's it it's like as you all

know having won six

very successful businesses teams like

these organic ever-changing you know you

could bring one person in and have a

massive impact on the team

you take one person out it can ruin a

team do you know me so they're sort of

the dynamics of a team and your role

within that are crucial so

you know not wearing a team kit you know

wearing a slightly different trainer

you know um criticizing the team not

buying into the sort of collective

opinion not sort of

dave b has this really big thing about

he'll listen he'll seek counsel from

everyone he'll listen to everyone's

opinion he wants to get to collective

opinion he wants to get to a collective

view of what the right direction is but

ultimately if we can't get there he'll

make the call

and then you've all got to be on the bus

non-negotiable if you sit in a meeting

room

and you agree with something and you say

yeah okay whilst i don't agree with it i

buy in

you know what i mean i've given you my

point of view you've said it's not

the way we're going to go but i buy in

and then you walk out the room and

you're like

i don't know if i can buy that that is

that is the one of the worst losing

behaviors you can have

because it's insidious and it it goes

around you know a whole organization can

be destroyed by a is like a virus

so things like that fascinating

i am you don't do a lot of public

speaking right you used to haven't done

it for a while now actually yeah

but like white collar crime i think

sometimes but yeah so i

i sort of i used to love doing it like i

really did used to love doing it but

i've also

i feel like the bit that i talked about

which is some of the stuff i've just

said

i feel like that's a bit of my past now

and i want to build a new build a new

path for myself before i figure out

telling people about it if that makes

sense yeah

so i don't want to take talks on social

media anymore if i can help it to be

honest for the same reasons yeah

i mean you talked a lot about dave as

well so david brailsford um

and very fondly i think a lot of your

tweets from my stalking were

were centered around him and things that

he was doing yeah what are some of the

the key qualities of of him that have

made him so successful

and his mindset or you know oh

big question i mean him and steve peters

are the two most influential men in my

life without a shadow of a doubt

um you know they they are symbiotic

because they are

i think if dave hadn't had steve he

maybe wouldn't be who he is and i think

his steve hadn't met dave he

maybe would be a slightly different

version of himself so they they

complement each other brilliantly dave

is

is a brilliant man manager he's he's

incredibly visionary

he's very brave you know you said the

thing about jumping off a cliff and

hoping you get your gliders

you put dave's like the king of that

dave's like we're gonna go we're gonna

go and achieve that and everyone's like

[ __ ] off and he's like come on let's go

and he and people are like okay because

he's so he's so bold with it he's so

confident with it that he and he's an

incredible leader that people would

literally i mean i would have followed

that man off the edge of a cliff

and i think that he has that quality in

him you know he's unrelenting

you know anyone who's working he's

difficult you know like all

geniuses are he's a he's a tricky guy

he's why

um how maybe is a better question

in all kinds of ways you know he's very

i think i've spoken about it on other

interviews i've done he can be very um

he can be

very particular he's very

detail-oriented he's

he wants to know all the facts before he

makes a decision he'll

he'll go out he'll like go after

something for age ages and you're like

oh my god

makes a decision i'll get on with it and

then he'll make a decision that's

totally off to the other side and you're

like oh

so doesn't make sense yeah or it's or

it's

brilliantly genius because you think oh

all that work that you were doing and

the decision i would have made and just

got on with it and made the decision

would have taken us that way and that

would have been the wrong way and it's

and it's that kind of you

all the way through my career with him

he would do that and i'd be like

it's just he's just clever like that you

know he's he's

ferocious appetite for learning he

unrelenting work ethic

you know expects incredible sets

incredibly high standards and expects

people to meet them

and all people can right no absolutely

and he'd and you know

we openly say that it's not all people

can there's nothing wrong with not being

able to meet them

you've got to be compassionately

ruthless you know that's what he always

says

which is basically if you're not if

you're not you set a standard and if

people can't meet them

then they're not in the right

organization and it's best there it's a

bit like the arrogant [ __ ] it's

better to be honest with them

and say you know what this isn't for you

than to kind of allow them to keep

failing

i think that can be very cruel to people

you know if they're in an environment

they're constantly trying to be better

but they just

can't do it that's yeah you talked a lot

about

when we were talking about winning

behaviors about this important about

high work ethic and you've expressed

that dave has a

relentless work ethic as well um you

you've probably observed how this

narrative around hard work has become

somewhat toxic over the last

couple of years and now i i you know

almost feel bad sometimes when i'm

what i'm saying that i don't know how i

would have been successful in what i've

done

if i hadn't have worked hard in fact i

don't really know anybody that's

really successful in their discipline or

their sport or whatever that doesn't

work

hard so i know we're not trying to give

anyone

depression and anxiety by saying that

you know

they have to be a hustle porn star they

won't be happy but

i still can't get to the point where i

will tell anybody that hard work doesn't

matter yeah

it really really matters to me and it's

i can't imagine

and you know what i was in the gym last

night and i was thinking sometimes words

really mess people up right so this i

like when people say work they think of

me on like a in a factory like

or in like like i don't know in a mine

hammering some rock all day

but i was thinking because i enjoy my

work so much imagine if i just changed

the words of my hard pleasure

yeah you know what i mean yeah yeah can

you have too much

of hard pleasure

um it's interesting as you were asking

me the question i think that

my respect because i actually i

similarly read something that you'd

written about you

you feel a bit of you feel a bit bad

that you sort of

hear heroes the kind of i'm working yeah

they're kind of 18 hours a day and i'm

going out

about it yeah bragged about it yeah and

and i sort of think

i get it i get why people feel like that

and i think there's a difference between

being

exceptionally busy and working all the

hours god gives and

thrashing yourself and all those sorts

of things and working really hard with

purpose

they're very different you know what i

mean and when you're working really hard

with purpose

and you're passionate about what you're

doing and you love the people you're

working with

and you're enjoying the the sort of

striving for the achievement

there's no shame in that that that's for

me that's absolutely part of

motivated ambitious people that's what

you want them to feel

and people used to know what's something

in the work life balance there isn't a

work-life balance my work is my life

and i make no i make no sort of excuse

for that

i love it i'm passionate about it i

enjoy it i have

it's hard pleasure you know it's

brilliant and i like the challenge of it

and like you know

i chose not to have kids i don't have a

partner it's it's

the passion point of my life is my work

and that's right but that doesn't mean i

need to be

you know not going out and seeing my

mates it doesn't mean i need to be up

until midnight

tapping out emails you know i mean i can

still i take days off

i you know i live a normal life but i

work really really hard

i've i've also struggled in the

relationship department yeah and

surprisingly

never you know been that good at

relationships i've never been able to

hold a relationship down

um i can't really see how it happens

necessarily

i hear you talk to me about that part of

i was gonna call it sacrifice but when

it's somewhat intentional

yeah when you're aware of it it's hard

to call it sacrifice just doesn't

motivate me i know that sounds awful

i'm not motivated to have somebody in my

life i'm not motivated to be like

i want a partner i want that

companionship you know we when i

arrived we were chatting about how this

environment that we're all living in

actually i

i love being on my own i i'm very happy

in my own company i'm very passionate

about what i do and i think that

fulfills the space that maybe other

people

have other that have other passions for

right and so

yeah it's never been a it's never been a

goal of mine i've never dreamt of the

white wedding i've never wanted to

and there's never a bit of me that sits

at home and thinks i wish i had someone

to sit and watch television ever

that doesn't doesn't even cross my mind

and my mates are always like do you not

get lonely or do you not worry and i'm

like

no i feel like i should because it would

make you all feel better

but and you know about five or six years

ago because everyone was on at me all

the time i'd like

did a bit of dating did some internet

you know use some apps everything else i

was like this why am i doing this i'm

doing this because society wants me to

do this i'm doing this because my mates

want me to do this this is [ __ ] uh

if it's right if it's right it'll come

if it's not it won't did you did you

date at all throughout the last

i guess decade did you here and there

but it's like

kill me you know kill me now you know

that kind of small

talk oh god it's like my idea of hell on

earth going and meeting a stranger

having small talk slightly awkward with

kind of one end game

do you know what i mean and it's like

and i'll know within two minutes of that

end game's happening and then i'm like i

don't really need this bulldog

for an hour and a half yeah we don't

need to dress this up so yeah no i just

yeah it just never yeah i did a little

bit but it's not it's

i'm not looking for that and i think if

i'm looking if i if i wanted if i wanted

to get married if i wanted to get into a

relationship

i could and i'm not i'm not adverse to

it but i'm just not out seeking it

and i i think you get what you look for

right yeah so other sacrifice um

i don't think it's a sacrifice by the

way yeah generally i need it no i i

do you know what the reason why when i

was younger i wouldn't have thought it

was a sacrifice and then i started

reading all this stuff about

the importance of like you know 18 19

and 20 even 24 year old steve would have

thought you know i don't need to [ __ ]

anybody and i can just

i'll be fine i'm a lone wolf yeah and

then i fully went for the whole recluse

thing

like wholeheartedly and i was broke so i

had no choice anyway

so i was broke and i was just not this

renegade that was determined to build

build businesses

and then i started reading some stuff

and it talked about the importance of

like meaningful connections and

relationships and i realized that i

didn't really have those and

if i was going to become wildly

successful then it would just be me

and my louis vuitton bag set up inside

of my house and i and then and then i

started to change my perspective and

thought steve you know what

you need to create a little bit more

openness or balance towards that stuff

so i

tried a little bit more but that doesn't

i see i see i have incredibly meaningful

relationships and incredible connections

i have

my friend i have like five or six

friends who are

my world i mean i'm incredibly close to

them they are

they're kids they're you know my god

children i feel very very connected i

don't feel

isolated in any way i don't feel like

i'm missing out or

sort of not having to and i actively

participate in the lives of my friends

kids and

in my friends lives and i think that

that's my connection that's my tribe you

know i mean

they and you know i would go to war for

them and it's it

i just don't think that that added bit

of a companion

for me right now you know i'm not saying

not forever

but i'm not sure that bit for me is

something that i need and i think that

it's that there's a difference there

because i do agree with you i think you

should absolutely have to have

connection

the human condition is to feel connected

to feel part of something to

to feel you know sort of the that you'll

have a purpose within your community and

i think

having your own community and having

your own tribe is crucial

i don't think that needs to be through

companionship with one other human being

there's a pressure that you talked about

the societal pressure you know and i've

got to be honest right i'm going to be

completely honest because i would be

really dishonest if i didn't

say this i have been guilty of

when i have a friend who is struggling

in that department

feeling like i need to help them

because again that's my own world if you

pressed upon them i'm thinking well in

order

but in order for me to be happy i would

need that so i need to make sure you

have that thing right

that pressure especially for women is

intense post

30 and it causes a ton of anxiety i see

it in my

direct messages from strangers um

not easy well it's interesting though so

when i'm 42 now and the pressure drops

away because i think you get to the

point where people

think it's rude to ask if you're going

to have kids because they're like can

you still have kids

okay right fine you get to that age

right but but certainly all through my

30s

when you're going to settle down do you

not want to have children and i and i

feel very very lucky

that i feel the way i do i've never

really had a biological clock that's

ticked

ever and i've never felt the need for

companionship

of one other person like i said my tribe

is very important to me but

and i think that's potentially

biological so i think i'm lucky

i don't because i do i have friends who

you know they would

they're desperate to meet someone

they're desperate to have children

they're desperate to