it's very rare that you get to meet

entrepreneurs that are

following and have followed in the steps

that

you followed in in your life and like so

whenever i meet people like you and ben

francis who

is similar age to me who has like

similar life ambitions

um i see it as like this really amazing

rare opportunity

to learn for myself and to ask honestly

like selfish questions

and i saw on your twitter i think it was

over the mental health week period

you did a tweet where you talked about

your experiences with

depression burnout and anxiety and from

what i know about your story

you experience those things in that

order so

i think that's a good place to start

which is let's talk about

depression and the the role that

depression played in your life and where

it came from

and how you've overcome or are

overcoming all handling depression

yeah so interesting actually because

um i i realized when i started to talk

about

mental health stuff even more

interestingly than what you've just said

i kind of realized that

i'd been burying another mental health

problems actually the the tweet was more

depression burnout anxiety

um and insomnia but actually it's really

interesting i did a

podcast interview with a nutritionist

called rhiannon lambert and when i was

preparing for that i was going over my

the fact that i'd grown up fat and the

fact that um

you know i probably did have an unusual

relationship mentally with food and

um suddenly like i was unpacking what

had happened in my 20s and

i actually had bulimia i used to throw

up for like four

to five years not intentionally though

this is like quite unusual but that's

how deeply rooted this mental health

problem was

i would eat something and i would throw

a lot of it

up um my friends would like know about

this but it wasn't like labelled and i

went to

you know specialists in harley street to

see what was up and they were like

medically you're fine so psychologically

there's something there

anyway i haven't done it since i was

about 26 or whatever but

it suddenly occurred to me a few weeks

ago really interestingly

that you know being able to label like

the time i got depression

the time i got anxiety the time i got

insomnia the time i was burnt out

i remembered those moments this one i'd

actually buried as a story

right in my head and never i'd never

expressed it in my whole life to anyone

publicly at all

full stop um and it was a couple of

months ago i wrote a newsletter on

mental health and

uh and nutrition um and i admitted for

the first time then that i'd had bulimia

and like what the symptoms

were and how long it had gone on and the

fact that i was basically like losing

lots of weight getting really skinny and

all i saw was someone fat

um and it was so interesting to me like

two revelations that came from that

one is that um if it's

so uncomfortable right it's for me it's

really embarrassing to admit to myself

that i was weak enough to have a mental

health condition that bad

that i would psychologically throw up

when there was nothing biologically

wrong with me

um that's really awkward to admit to

yourself it's also

far more terrifying to admit it publicly

once you've uncovered it

and it kind of made me reflect on the

fact that um sometimes like these things

are actually just so painfully

embarrassing about your personal life

that you can even bury it to yourself

did you ever understand why you were

bulimic was there because it's a

psychological like comorbidity so

what was the cause it's really hard to

say what the cause was because i got it

after i'd lost weight

um so you know by the time i was sort of

21 or whatever i was in perfectly

reasonable shape

um but i got it at like 23. um and

actually there was a result of it um the

only time i was ever hospitalized

it's a really random but hilarious story

in its own way

um because i've been throwing up i've

been basically like hurting the inside

of my throat right

and i was at a festival one time and i

had a coughing fit in

in hackney and i had a coughing fit at

the hospital and i coughed a hole in my

throat literally it's called a

pneumomedia steinem it's a very unique

thing to happen apparently

and fortunately it was close enough to

the royal london hospital to go in there

and show them right

and basically what happened to me was my

head started to grow so i was with my

friends feeling fine other than this

cough

and one of my friends just looked at me

and was like whoa and i was like what

they're like may your head is massive

i'm like i'm not even talking mate maybe

a dick

no no your head is growing what is going

on i was like what and then

everyone else was like oh my god anyway

walks to

the hospital um it's sort of like five

in the afternoon or whatever because

there's a day festival

um and there's like you know it's east

london there's quite a lot of genuinely

like gang related things people are

bleeding everywhere all this stuff and

they just see me and they're like that

guy's next

and put me and i went into intensive

care for like the whole week um

whilst they were basically trying to sew

up this hole in my throat when you say

your head was

your head was growing so oxygen was

going uh not going

like in my mouth and through my

bloodstream properly somebody was

escaping around my head and my brain

so it was like an emergency procedure to

like like get me on

uh meds and sort me out but it's so

interesting because even

knowing that that had happened to me i

didn't relate the cause

to actually a deeper root cause which

was another mental health problem

um to be honest with you like i couldn't

say to you what the trigger was

beyond this like story you know the

things that we grow up with the people

that we grow up with those little

you know bullying and things like that i

mean you know in some good respects

because i grew up fat i've got a good

personality and a sense of humor

so i've always been like able to really

connect with people because i just never

had it all my way kind of thing

do you know this this story about you

know um people that are fat having

better senses of humor and being a

little bit more you know quote and quite

bubbly yeah

why why is that i think self-deprecation

can sometimes be like a

defense mechanism right and and

ultimately

you know with these things you're going

to hear them a lot if you grow up you're

going to hear it a lot right you're

going to go to a new environment

someone's going to bully you for the

obvious and so

you kind of find a way of coping with it

in your own way

um for me it's just interesting because

the other mental health um issues that

i've had in my life

i'm able to trace back usually to a

moment or a thing or reflect on why

this one kind of just happened later and

then as soon like you know i had it for

a few years

but then it just also went away at what

age was this so about 23

to about 27. are you old now uh 33.

so it was so you had it for 23 to 27 for

about four years

and you overcame yeah but like

naturally i wasn't doing anything

different i mean i started to learn what

foods would make me more sick than

others if that makes sense as well

um but i find it super interesting

again less so i mean we're cool to know

the trigger

obviously but it's almost less so that

and more so the fact

that um it kind of ran its course as

well was interesting to me and that i

buried it

right in my head um and actually 27

um you know was the start of like a

whole other you know experience in life

for me anyway

so it is possible that um you know these

things are related to stress and other

things

um my entrepreneurship journey started

at 24 so it's not

completely unrelated but not quite not

not enough to actually label it and say

it's

for a thing um but then you know the

other

the other experiences um that i've had

with

with mental health a lot clearer so i

think

depression is a really complex term

um and the only i think it's really

worth saying the only

relation that i've got to depression

that i'm comfortable talking about

um is after my father passed away and i

think that's

really reasonable right and so this is

the thing i

like because i work so so much with

people in mental health and experts

i know like depression is also

not something to claim you have when you

feel down or

you know it's very different like and

obviously there is a spectrum of these

things as well

but for me my depressive episode was

right after my father passed away

because he was on life support for six

months and overcame

when they said he's 100 going to die

actually survived

made it out of the hospital into

recovery home and then someone basically

had a cold around him and he died of

their cold catching their cold

after the entire recovery process um the

truth of the matter is that

my depression was actually interestingly

sort of linked with a lack of belief

in um a higher power or whatever you

want to call it justice

like everything right because in

fairness yeah and like my dad was like

such a generous spirited guy

he was blind he had all of these things

wrong with him anyway and still

like was just the funniest nicest

warmest person anyone knows

and um the last person on earth to kind

of deserve something like that

and so for me the um

the experience after he passed away so

he believed in god

so when he died i was like that's my

connection to god gone

therefore i straight up believe in

nothing um

you know i think it's really interesting

to have conversations with people

intelligent people like yourself when

you talk about purpose

and vision and these things it's very

hard to imagine that you've got a

purpose

a vision for anything if suddenly you've

switched

and you've switched off and you've said

i believe in nothing you did totally

destabilized

yeah yeah i remember the the feeling of

being i was religious until i was when i

was christian until i was 18.

and then which i think will surprise a

lot of people because i'm a very

rational

sort of someone that makes a lot of

decisions and things from first

principles or logic

and then at 18 i lost my faith per se

and it was the most like the two years

following that were the

two most destabilizing years of my life

as i i became a total obsessive atheist

which means i read every book watched

every documentary video

and then i got to the point and this is

when i realized that i'd overcome my

sort of

wobble where i no longer cared about

engaging in these debates with people

that agreed or disagreed with me

and i was at peace with my own beliefs

that um i guess which is like

agnosticism if that's a term and the

other really destabilizing moment in my

life where i lost my sense of

purpose was the day someone offered me

about

20 to 30 million um hypothetically to

buy my business

and 18 year old steve shows up i've

talked about this a few times

because he thought we were doing this

for money he thought that was the goal

and so i go home that night i remember

where i sat like it was yesterday

i'm typing rightmove.com looking at

houses at 24 years old

and then i'm looking at these houses and

i'm getting this real sort of

deep sense of um unfulfillment by

thinking well that was

that was it that was the game and then

like okay so um auto trader boom

boom lamborghini aventador i'm looking

at this aventador and feeling like i'd

be poorer

not in a financial sense but in like a

spiritual sense

if i chose to step on what's clearly a

hamster wheel

and and that so from that day the day

after

i didn't know why i was i didn't know

why i was working hard anymore i didn't

know why i was building the business and

i had to then go in

search of a real form of stability in my

life which was

you know i love it but i thought i loved

it for another reason i thought i loved

it for money

but i loved it for connection and for

conversations like this and those things

but to go back to your point please um

you're talking about how

you lost your sense of sort of stability

i guess yeah i lost what i believed in

this world

yeah and if you don't have a sense of

belief it's really hard to find your

purpose

and i i would say that i

i went through a few years of that um

very important age sorry uh so 24 my dad

died so

i mean also similar time to having the

yeah i mean i didn't even realize that

as

i until i was saying it just now um but

so

probably related obviously um but

i i went through about three years

of not believing um

in anything right like really and you

know

not very nice about it either um so i

grew up jewish

um and i've always said in fairness you

know i think judaism is as bad a

religion as all the other religions

you know i don't actually personally uh

like any one of them

but i do love what they all mean but

then you know it's very possible to be

wise and not associate yourself with a

religion

and what i've learned which i find so

interesting

is my identity my connection to

spirituality and judaism is a weird one

as well because it's like a race and a

religion

so it's like you can actually be not

religious you can lose your religion but

still be the race yeah

um and that's that's like an actually

it's a positive in a way because it

means you don't have to disassociate

from cultural values

but you can disassociate yourself from

religious ideals

and what actually happened to me was you

know

i would be relatively difficult

and question people a lot when they

would talk to me about their religious

beliefs

i'd want to dig into them and i'd really

want to challenge the way that they

think and why they think these things

and how they can defend them

but not trying not to be an absolute

[ __ ] but just

using my own i guess bitterness and my

own experience of growing up being told

to believe in something which is very

different to finding something

and you know when my father passed away

and i didn't have this connection to it

anymore

i also felt like i didn't have a

connection to spirituality or anything

and so it's very weird to have like

almost the death of a religion as a

human being

because that's your death of your

connection to this earth and purpose and

everything and

it wasn't until i was 27 really um

one of my really good friends told me

about um and obviously we've been

talking about christian angermeier as

well like our mutual friends so this is

a relevant conversation

told me about ayahuasca and i'd never

heard of it before i didn't even know

what it was

um and i went on a retreat with him and

um i mean i came back that weekend

completely

i mean when i say a 180 i went from

the most cynical non-believer in the

whole

world negatively so to

like without sounding like a complete

[ __ ] like positively

enlightened and confident never never

more confident of anything in my life

um of spiritual realism

and what i believe in and ultimately

what i believe in when i have these like

fun conversations with people now about

spirituality

which is you know what do i believe in i

believe in nature i believe in

looking at the beauty of the world and

how cycles

work which is science right and the way

that my ayahuasca experience actually

opened my eyes to believing in something

spiritual or greater than myself

was 90 percent of my hallucination was

observing what happens in nature with

cycles

right birds bees oxygen air

soil all of this recycling all the time

for a sustainable system and being like

you know that is

in itself a scientific miracle but

something greater than us

that's always happening throughout time

and it was a real shift for me because

a i overcame my depression from that

b i suddenly believed in something

even if that's something is nature and

when people are like and i get this from

christians quite often as well because

they're like you know what do you mean

you believe in nature like what is that

i'm like

i mean it's it's more believable than a

guy that walked on water

yeah and when they like get annoyed i'm

like i've got nothing against jesus i'm

just saying that like

believing in nature as ridiculous as

that sound

is a profound belief and what's

important is it is a belief

and having a belief has actually helped

me helped guide me to then work on

things like

what are my personal values you know

which you talked about you know mental

models

what do i say yes to a no to in life

well you can only figure those things

out if you spend time with mental models

first principles thinking about

what things mean to you in life and then

suddenly

other things start to come into flow and

and so i really want to just double down

on this ayahuasca experience

what exactly did you do on that

experience

so ayahuasca is essentially uh and it's

completely natural it's tree sap

from the amazon um and it's been

practiced for thousands of years and

you know i won't go into like the whole

history of psychedelics but i could do

because i've read a lot about it

um the the reality is it's sacred

so our shamans have like a legal license

to practice with it

um and they it's a guided experience so

the most important thing to say to

anyone thinking about ayahuasca or

whatever like

it's not something you do at home on

your own

at all ever you could do that with

mushrooms you can definitely do that

with lsd

you definitely do not want to do that

with ayahuasca because

um in my experience the other

psychedelics are a bit like you can have

sort of one foot in this world one foot

in that world

and ayahuasca is not even in this

plane you're just somewhere else but

what's fascinating and very common from

people's recollections of ayahuasca

trips is

you have a spirit guide called mama

ayahuasca that's what everyone calls

her um and

in all of my experience of doing it and

i've done it about 12 times now

so i almost go back every year by the

way it's an incredibly painful

experience

and it's very difficult to do and it's

not something you look forward to which

is why it's like

rockish rocket fuel growth um which is

why i do it

because you learn all the things about

yourself you don't want to hear you

don't want to know and you confront the

worst realities

and i've learned more in those weekends

that i've done this then

you know you can learn with therapists

and you can learn yourself so staggering

everyone says this to me and it's

and you know you mentioned a guy called

christian angermeier

context he runs a company called a thai

which are are now

developing um psychedelics as a way to

cure treatment resistant depression

um it's really sort of a groundbreaking

company and he sat with me in his

his penthouse just across across the

street in fact from where we are now

and he was telling me that you can let

you unlock the brain

by taking these drugs and you discover

truths about yourself which

in many experiences which is similar to

what you're describing

will have a permanent lasting

transformative impact on the way you

see the world and it like corrects your

thinking and it's it's

it's crazy crazy for a normal person

that isn't

in this world or doesn't understand this

to think that you can take

a magic mushroom or a drug or a

psychedelic or whatever you want to call

it

and overcome grief there's a great book

by michael pollan called

um how to change your mind and in it he

talks about this problem with

psychedelics it's a bit like dreams

right

you're having an ineffable experience so

to describe it for people was generally

quite boring

what i think is more interesting in a

sense is to discuss

the outcomes that i've i've got from it

um

so the first time you know very quickly

because you asked

the experience was the hallucinogenic

experience like i said was watching the

cycles of the earth develop

and were you conscious because right so

you haven't done it yes so

you drink it it takes about an hour for

me you lie down the pitch blacks fluid

it's like a shot it tastes disgusting

but some people like it you lie back

um and and the shamans basically start

playing music and it's a completely

guided facilitated experience with them

if you're having problems they come over

they help you if you need to be taken

out the room they look after you it's

like

you know it's busy night there's noises

like a lot of people throw up

how's this for irony i didn't throw up

for my first 10 times

which everyone was like that's super

weird i was like yes especially

considering my history

really bizarre um but the

um the experience i saw was the one i

needed and there's a really deep

insightful experience you get from

psychedelics which you can often go in

wanting a thing but it isn't what you

need and in this experience what i

wanted was to see my dad and to connect

with my dad but it isn't what i got what

i got was

um a vision of understanding

how everything in this earth is living

in a cycle

like a beautiful miracle and so it was

less about like seeing

micro things and seeing macro things

being in it

if it's taking me to a place i don't

want to go and a door i'm not ready to

open

you can negotiate you can actually say

i'm not ready for that yet and sometimes

it'll push you and say

open it anyway but sometimes it will

actually listen to you and let you go

sort of back into your body

so it is a really fascinating

experience and what i'd say about it is

it's the number one most important thing

i've ever done in my life

um and especially because

it's not pleasant um the first time i

did it

was you know the single most

life-changing moment in my life

not only got over my depression you know

i went and spent the whole day with my

mum the next day explained everything

that i'd experienced um you know not a

mum's favorite chat hearing your son

talk about psychedelics but certainly is

in context of like helping me get over

something she was aware i was suffering

from

um the single greatest lesson i've

learned in ayahuasca is about gratitude

so i was going through a period i think

i was 30

potentially it was a few years later and

uh

things were going well at the time so my

attitude my mindset was i want this i

want that right what's your intention

going in well i want this

i want that that's like how you answer

it because you're not enlightened enough

to understand

the psychedelic experience right yeah

yeah and you can write it down and come

back to and be like that was what i was

looking for in this journey

um but actually the lesson i learned so

i was asking you know how can i 10x what

i do

how can i be more how can i become

better how can i have more impact you

know

me me me me all these questions um i was

instead transported to

um like basically i'm not sure where in

the world but a very poor part of the

world

where there was this like kid like

begging

in the street basically and i like

became that kid

and i became this person like trying to

get water for his family

and having to walk miles for it and

50 of my whole entire psychedelic

experience that night was

literally walking like a mile in this

boy's shoes and

it this lesson sort of came to me about

you know it isn't always about what you

want

and it isn't always about like you know

asking for more

it's actually about having gratitude for

what you have

and when you have enough gratitude for

what you already have you will unlock

the path to more

and you know there's this thing that

i've learned as well which is when you

go into experiences it's helpful to have

a totem

right so i carry a different stone in

for each experience and i have these

stones at home anyway i have this stone

by the side of my bed um and every

single morning that i wake up the first

thing i see is this stone

literally just a pile of crap stone but

the point is it's imbued with this

message for me

and i wake up every day and i'm grateful

for having running water

in my bathroom there and that is like an

unbelievably poetic

and powerful way to live your life past

an experience to wake up

in camden town in london being you know

so fortunate like i am but with a real

genuine reminder

of gratitude as opposed to like waking

up groggy and being like hey i'm

grateful for waking up today this is

like it means something to me

so these little triggers and shifts they

emotionally change something in you but

i've learned a lesson the hard way

through ayahuasca as well which is

just because you're learning lessons

this is like all wisdom right it doesn't

matter whether you get it from ayahuasca

or you get it from you know your

instagram posts

you can read it and it can resonate and

you can be like wow that's powerful

without action it means nothing so if

you don't create then the steps

to be better based on what you learned

you're wasting

a very powerful weekend and painful

weekend

and i've been guilty of that too i've

learned i've learned lessons

that i haven't necessarily followed

through with and

you know and and sometimes it's because

they take bravery

and i feel like i'm not ready for that

bravery up and so we were talking about

the other day

you know with the exactly with personal

branding exactly actually

that's actually a good segue on to that

topic as well because it's something

that

i know for a fact a lot of people

struggle with in different

forms and um but in but also

specifically with this topic which is

putting yourself out there on the

internet um i know this because

a lot of people have told me but also

because i've

been there right so let's if we rewind a

couple of years in my own life

a guy called ash jones says to me you

should make a youtube channel

i dismiss the idea obviously because i'm

like well people are going to think that

i think i'm

mahatma gandhi like or like people are

gonna think that i think i'm a genius or

that i think i have all the answers so

i'm not doing that

eventually after two years he sits me

down in this room and it took

about eight or nine hours for us to

shoot a two-minute video

because i couldn't speak i i was

self-conscious and all of these things

and i was plagued by that thought that

my friends back home who knew me in

school

will think oh steve's a [ __ ] he's

changed what's he doing who does he

think he is

and that almost imprisoned me it almost

stopped me from

doing the thing that actually liberated

me made me the most fulfilled i've ever

been

and by allowing me to be my like true

self

and in fact what i wanted to do was be

true to myself

and um

it felt like i was worried that people

would think i was um

being something i was not trying to fake

myself and so i guess the question that

i have for you is

you know a lot of stuff but you've not

you know you've got a great podcast

secret leaders you've got a new podcast

as well

which is centered around your brand

heights um

you've struggled to put yourself out

there on the internet and social media

can you explain

why yes i mean such a good question

steve um

but also because we connect a lot on

this right so you're like my unofficial

mentor with a few voice notes where i'm

like

he's got a [ __ ] point here um

so you know it's i guess i'll put it a

slightly different way you know i was

listening to one of your early but you

sent me this actually your podcast with

with him so what was his name ash jones

yeah

yeah you told me to listen to an episode

which i did and you know he was talking

about the early days of social chain

you learned early that you you were

bringing in most of the revenue like

steve was bringing in most of the

revenue therefore the business decision

made lots of sense to center that around

you

i think when you're doing b2b that makes

loads of sense

the challenge i have is um my products

are b2c right they're for consumers

and putting as much time and effort and

thought and energy

into promoting myself is is mental

energy i should be putting into the

brand

and you know there is i think uh

probably a reasonable compromise and

also like all things this is a bit of a

developing

scenario however um you know it's a very

fair thing to say

that i'm not the product this is the

product um

inside my company we could all agree

that that is like broadly true right

we're selling a thing we're not selling

me whereas

you know going through exactly the same

experience at social chain you guys if

you weren't in the room you guys would

have come to the same conclusion which

is steve's the greatest like part of the

funnel here so

we as a company succeed when steve's

succeeding so that's the kind of

marketing final we should back so you

know i can see you sort of

smirking at me because this is the story

i tell myself okay fine

because i was like this doesn't make

this is the story

this is the story that i tell myself it

doesn't mean that it's true um

you know then there's another question

about platforms right so

um you know this isn't a mental health

condition

um but i do have imposter syndrome and

you know we've talked about this in the

past as well but

um you know the first business that i

scaled

uh was grabble and which is when we

first met yes

um and you know that

that was me going into technology and

fashion having had no experience

previously i was in advertising before

and i love changing industries and i

love challenging myself to completely

wipe the slate

clean and do something new but it comes

with imposter syndrome that's what i've

learned about myself right i'm

i'm full of the internal monologue of

i'm not good enough no one cares what i

think and

i don't deserve to be doing this it's

someone else's dream

um that doesn't change

right in me that that voice is still

there

um however you know a really good thing

if you're aware if you're consciously

aware of your limitations especially

like some of your mental frailties

creating steps to improve those things

are helpful so

with heights the first thing i did just

over 100 weeks ago we started a

newsletter

because i was like i'm going to get

imposter syndrome so badly

in a space of neuroscience and nutrition

not neuroscientists or nutrition like

it's going to be

awful for me so i'm going to write a

newsletter every week

and i'm going to read a science paper

every week and i am going to distill

that into three minutes because when you

read something you learn it once and

when you share it you learn it twice so

the process of literally rewriting this

was creating neural pathways

and embedding the information into my

brain so i was like in a hundred weeks

it's actually what i told myself and

it's just

been 101 now um in 100 weeks i won't be

a neuroscientist or a nutritionist

but i will have read over 100 science

papers and i'll know what science says

is good for your brain

according to journals experts etc which

would be an amazing

step to create an amazing habit to build

to get over my own mental frailties and

my own story of imposter syndrome

so when it comes to social media i feel

like i've got the same thing which is

like

um when my last company failed

and i didn't know what i was going to do

next i looked at like my social media

platforms i was like you know

where am i going to spend time rather

than where am i going to waste time

ultimately right because you can get

caught up in

this silly game and then thinking

personal branding where do i feel

comfortable that would be a good place

to start

and i chose linkedin and the reason i

chose linkedin was because i told myself

a story which i completely believe to be

true anyway

which is whatever i do next i'm a serial

entrepreneur right as in

i'm fine not having any money i'm fine

working for other people for free doing

all these things but i'm always going to

start something else

myself again so if i know that to be

true it means i'm always going to hire

people

and what do really smart and impressive

people want from their boss they want to

know who they're working for

they want to know what your values are

they want to know what you believe in

they want to know what kind of things

you share

and so i was like linkedin is the only

place that could credibly do that for me

right

and i actually went from i mean it's not

you know that impressive but i went from

like

3 000 followers or something to almost

25 000

on the basis of and as you know there's

no putting money behind anything in

linkedin or anything

literally just by being myself by

writing about how i'd failed

by writing about what i was working on

next by working and and also all of the

things when you know writing about what

you're working on next is such a

difficult thing to do because it's

probably going to fail as well

and it did you know before heights um

with three iterations of things that i

was publicly putting out there and

getting feedback on and stuff that we

had to kill because it didn't have legs

um it's a horrible time for an

entrepreneur

in between or it can be certainly in

between people like what do you do

and your identity is in flux and you

know you're like do i talk about this

new thing that i've just discovered that

might not be a thing in a month

preaching here dan i know right exactly

exactly

but it's such a complicated answer to

give in the now yeah

um so anyway like on the personal brand

thing like i decided linkedin was a

place i felt comfortable because i can

be my authentic self because i am an

entrepreneur because i

am someone who is willing to go big

and fail and like actually figure out

why and talk about why and i think this

stuff is so

important um for entrepreneurs to

connect

openly and honestly because i absolutely

hate and the one thing i will not miss

about networking events

is like going to them and everyone

talking about them killing it you know

that is

literally poison in our society it's

nonsense

so everyone just talking about how

they're killing it stops people from

saying

actually you know shit's really hard

right now this is the problem i'm

dealing with

and this is like how it's making me feel

if you're able to say that to another

entrepreneur because you've created the

container in the environment to be

comfortable to do so

that person can probably help you and if

you are

stuck with the narrative that

everything's going amazingly

all the time and that's all you're

telling people no one can help you

figure it out when you actually could do

with the help you know it's the other

thing going slightly off piece sorry but

you know my biggest bug bear in

entrepreneurship is stealth mode

i think stealth mode is like the most

stupid thing that an entrepreneur can

claim to be in full stop because as you

know

ideas are worthless execution is

everything anyone that's ever built a

business knows how stupid

it is stealth mode is when people say

like working on a new business in

finance in stealth mode

right i'd love to see i mean not telling

anybody yeah i'd love to tell you what

my startup is but it's so amazing you'll

steal it so i'm not going to tell you

guys

all the time all the time so many people

do it and

and i i i give the most direct feedback

on linkedin

probably very similar to you like loads

of people asking my help for loads of

things all the time and if i ever see

stealth mode on their thing i'm like

i don't talk to anyone in stealth mode

fyi stealth mode is such a stupid thing

because

it's it's it's like how do i describe

like saying i'm afraid of feedback but

it's yeah but it's also like saying

i've got something that i can't tell you

yeah why did you tell me you had

something

i know you know just don't start the

conversation with me i'm a curious

person

what it is but you know you're attention

seeking but you don't want

to tell it's like it's a weird form of

like i don't know flirtation i don't

know um

but i want to get to this point about

why you

we have this conversation yeah like a

week or two ago about

instagram and making videos of yourself

and putting your ideas out there

what is it that's stopping you doing

that you talked about imposter syndrome

i guess that kind of relates to the

business side of things more what's

stopping you

going on instagram putting a video on

your instagram and saying

this is what i think these are my ideas

comment below if you agree

yeah you're it's a great question um

so i guess as a starting point like it's

worth saying that

i think a very healthy way to approach

stuff like this in your life is to to

choose a place build confidence and go

on from there

so i feel like that's what i did with

linkedin i understood that that's the

place where i'd feel

least impostery and so i'd start there

now

you know i picked up on on twitter i

mean twitter is

like my favorite platform that's when i

spend probably the most time on um

but you know it's it's got a very short

half-life so it's kind of impossible to

to consistently come up with gems um

instagram you know to me was this place

where

just beautiful people live young

beautiful people live and that's all

anyone's interested in

and that's not really my world right i'm

interested in challenge i'm interested

in mental health i'm interested in

stories

um and i interestingly i wasn't finding

that on instagram so i was like what am

i doing i don't really belong in this

place

at all um i'd say like a hundred percent

like inspired by the way that you've

approached your instagram like sharing

insights because insights and like

distilling my thoughts into something

and writing them down

that is something that i do i just don't

publish them or i was on linkedin

so actually like what i've now started

doing on instagram is like literally

taking a leaf out of your book

after our chat which is going through

some of my high performing linkedin

posts that you know might have got one

or two thousand likes and being like if

it was popular there

i guess it'll be popular let's have a go

and trying to get over it

now slowly but surely but it's this

constant

belief that no one wants to hear what i

have to say yes

of course and that's what i was getting

at and like where

does what are the forces that are

at play which are making it feel like

some

like psychological discomfort if you are

to

tell the world what you think on

instagram let's say what

in your mind what is it friends back

home is it this particular person

sometimes i can think of a particular

person

and i can think that person from four

years ago is going to think i'm a dick

100 dude like the thing that i've

learned which is so interesting is

90 percent of my fear of what people

will think is based on my school friends

yes who like you know i only speak to a

bunch of them now you know identity is

such an interesting thing and you know

you have it when you're

um you'll be going through it right now

and i empathize right you're not steve

from social chain anymore

yeah right and that's you know for ages

you know i was down from gravel now i'm

down from heights

um you know people do that and that's

fine but it's important you don't over

compensate that identity for yourself

attached to your business because we're

all on a path and we're going to go

through a journey and the journey

the stories are going to change and when

you over attach yourself to a particular

part of the journey

is where you can find struggle and

that's and

on that point you build your life around

that identity so your friends

the you me your music your interests and

so you you would have collected

through your life a bunch of people who

know dan as this

exactly and you're gonna have to shed

some of them potentially

by by stepping into your new identity

100 and that's a i guess a conflict or a

100 and it's difficult right but as you

grow you edit

and you know you need to really consider

who you're editing out of your life and

who you're welcoming into your life

and i think you know there's the the

practical reality that what was good for

you five years ago is no good for you

right now

and frankly you know the highest

leverage decision you can make i'm still

terrible at this by the way

but the highest leverage decision you

can make is picking what to say no to

and the hardest thing you can do is say

no to opportunities that you would

definitely say yes to

so you know that includes friends that

includes saying i don't have time for

this friend anymore

or this identity this part of my

identity anymore

even though i like it i like them i like

all this stuff because

frankly there's you know this

shedding almost that we do as human

beings um

you know the you know in reptile form

it's very physical

right they're literally shedding a skin

but as humans you don't see this change

but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

and we go in these cycles and i think a

lot of

you know mental health conditioning is

attached to

our holding onto the past and refusing

to sort of embrace the future

and that's why you know i think it's

really important

to set out a clear understanding of your

purpose a clear understanding of the

things you will say no to and won't say

no to

and acknowledging that that changes

right so i do an exercise like this

every year

um and it takes about five or six hours

i do it with my wife it's like a whole

massive

like briefing document essentially on

your vision your purpose your friends

like all of this stuff

um spending the time thoughtfully

thinking about these things which people

do not do enough of

is so important because if you're not

reflective and you're not spending time

thinking manifesting essentially who you

want to be in the future

then i think you're going to miss a

massive opportunity to grow

um you know i because you know i work in

the brain space now

in in brain care neuroscience

you call that neuroplasticity right it's

this idea that the brain will grow it's

plastic and

it's essentially changing in whatever

direction you choose to take it in

if you are episode 53 of chapter two we

talked about this on the last

episode so it's very relevant oh really

okay fine yeah so neuroplasticity is

that

um if you are into spirituality like i

am then it's called manifestation right

it's spending the time thinking about

what you're gonna do and how you're

gonna get that

and then to put it into like super

business terms if you're into business

it's called planning and execution so

there are these different ways to

articulate the same point but the point

is

if you just spend your days going um bit

by bit

not really thinking about where you're

going to go and what it means to you

it'd be very hard for you to make good

decisions and frankly

and this i guess actually speaking like

personal branding a more popular post i

did recently

was about stamina and the things i've

learned about rest which is that

as a founder and a ceo you learn that

you're not paid for your stamina right

you pay

yeah you pay mo gorda for sorry not mo

called mo farah for his stamina right

he's got to run a [ __ ] 10k that's

stamina right that's what athletes are

paid for

i'm paid for my decision making people

invest in me and they invest in heights

for my decision-making abilities and

overworking

giving yourself burnout not taking space

to rest

not listening to what you know to be

true and spending the time planning

that's bad decision-making yeah um if

you can't do those things for your own

body

you know it's like what i said is if you

can't be the ceo of your body

you do not earn the right to be the ceo

of your company you gotta you've got to

look after

your mental state and your physical body

first by thinking

and finding the space carving out the

space to think

what does good decisions look like that

fit my purpose and where i'm looking to

go

and if you can do that and you can

answer those things you actually start

to learn things start to add up

and and that kind of segues back to the

initial tweet where

you talked about depression anxiety

banner and insomnia

so let's talk about burnout then it's a

very

um a very popular topic i actually think

one of the most

listened to episode of this podcast was

the top was the one about burnout

and us being a burnout generation and

how we've kind of glamorized it we're

optimizing our lives so we can fill it

with more things to do

did you burn out how did you burn out

and you understand

why you burnt out 100 um

you know garyvee is a very clever man

um very intelligent but you know he has

created a negative impact on society

that he would probably be upset about

because he seems to be a lovely man that

really deeply cares about stuff from

what i can

see i believe his authenticity but he

has created hustle culture

and hustle porn and you know what i met

gary vee had him on this podcast

and you're right i think in every um

depiction of him there he's a genuinely

authentic person you meet him and think

you are who i thought you were online um

and you're completely right

in the sense that because he's being his

authentic self which we can't

you know uh um we can't criticize anyone

for being in fact that's what we tell

everyone to be be

yourself and chat you know and be

willing to share it with the world

the issue i think as you're pointing out

is his

lack of appreciation that

about nuance and that everyone is

fundamentally different and everyone's

not gary vee i had that problem too when

i started

i couldn't understand why people weren't

sacrificing their lives to build

businesses and working until four in the

morning and sleeping under the desk

i thought everyone that wasn't doing

that was both an idiot and

inferior and wasting their time and

wasting that time and they would never

be happy

because as far as steve's bartlett's

brain could tell him

that was happiness yeah and because like

all of the pain that you suffer is part

of

part of the game and yeah but that stuff

isn't

this is the thing right that stuff isn't

not true you do have to grow

growth is painful and you will have

sleepless nights and all the other bits

and pieces that is part of the parcel

the thing where we confuse this is it's

all mutually exclusive aka

my identity has to be that and only that

because that's how gary v

and like a few other geniuses in society

have got to the top of their games

but here's the thing like there's two

reasons why i had burnout last time

the first was because i wasn't happy on

what i was working and

running a startup can feel a bit like a

cage sometimes so

uh unless you're really sure i say this

all entrepreneurs all the time

are you sure this is the company you

want to build because if it's not

you're going to be doing it anyway and

then you are your own

bird keeper you have locked yourself in

a cage and that's what i did with

grabble

i got lucky i found a niche an

opportunity

it grew exponentially really quickly

millions of downloads had a million

monthly active users in our end we had

like a you know even

acquisition that failed sadly but you

know would have made us millionaires was

a real

journey with that company it was fashion

for tinder basically yeah

exactly and it was a real it was a real

exciting journey but

at no point did i enjoy it um really

like

not at no point my ego enjoyed it right

and we won loads of awards

um you know we won the award we wanted

like we were like we just want to be

written about in techcrunch and all this

stuff and in 2017 we won best mobile

startup in europe over depop at the

techcrunch europas

we didn't even turn up to that awards to

take that award

because i was having such a bad time

mentally i didn't even go to the awards

of a ceremony my friend picked up that

trophy

and took a photo on our behalf i was

sitting at home drinking whiskey feeling

really terrible about myself

um why because

that was living someone else's dream i

didn't care about fashion

um what was the force that made you live

someone else's dream

yeah good question uh a bit of

serendipity in the sense of

um you know listening to users going on

a bit of a journey and the product sort

of developing

and then it getting catching fire before

you really have an opportunity

to stop and say no that's not really for

me

like you were getting dragged you

weren't pulling a bit yeah a bit but

then at the same time like you know

like everyone i'm scared of failure so i

didn't want to be a failure so i wanted

to make it work and you know by hook or

by crook i was willing to like push

really hard to make it work and you know

i look back on my time with grapple and

other than like working hard i was

working against my purpose and i could

feel it and when people ask me i'm

actually like as you know

always to my detriment honest so

i would tell people including the wrong

people including investors that you know

my heart really isn't in it and like all

this stuff

because you know all i had left for

authenticity was to be honest in these

conversations with other people you know

i've just finished writing my book

um not trying to plug it although happy

sexy millionaires happy sexy

millionaire available on all bookshelves

no it's not pre-order um

but there's a chapter in there where i

really investigate burnout and the

reason there's topics like

self-awareness and burnout which

we haven't quite yet properly defined

everyone throws it out there on

instagram oh i'm feeling burnt out

but nobody's like gone down the rabbit

hole to figure out the innate causes or

the psychological or social causes of it

so i just wanted to like go as far down

as i could go

and i tend to believe the depth that

i've got to with my thinking and the

research that i've done

is that you typically get um you stand a

higher chance of burnout in situations

where you are extrinsically motivated um

to do x activity because i view my life

and i think about all the things that i

do

intrinsically like walking i've never

got burnt out walking my dog

or playing with my dog you know i've

never got burnt out um

like reading books that i love and those

kinds of things but

when it comes to getting paid to

do something that i don't intrinsically

enjoy doing

burnout is almost inevitable at some

point not just by now right but then my

but then motivation and i started

looking at motivation and the spectrum

it sits on of on one end being totally

uh extrinsic you're literally doing it

because you're forced to

and then on the other end doing it

because it's an innate passion

an intrinsic passion and all of the

things on this end where you

you're paid and you're forced to burn

out seems to show up

and on the other end when it's it's

intrinsic and you love it and you're

doing it for the sake of doing it

i never get burned out and my motivation

seems to last the course of time so i

wanted to see if that resonates with you

yeah but let me tell you something else

that's interesting that i'm i'm

consciously aware of because i've had

burnout and by the way my experience of

it was you know i just couldn't get out

of bed for a month

really um that was it i basically just

stayed in bed and i just like i couldn't

face going to the office i couldn't face

leaving my

team in the office yeah and you're lying

in bed well i got my co-founder and i

just like

explained that i'd literally i didn't

know what it was at the time i was like

i think it might be depression i didn't

know what it was though this is the

thing i probably didn't even say those

words

how did it feel um just like just no

energy whatsoever just like no

no ability a bit like when i had corona

virus to be honest just like zonked

um not and nothing i was doing was able

to make me feel like i was getting the

energy

i think the reason why as well was um

again i like i'm a helpful guy i really

believe in my greatest superpower full

stop is connecting people right i've got

infinite numbers of ways i've connected

people eight people have got married

that i've introduced you know they say

three in heaven but you know i don't

quite believe in heaven so

it's irrelevant but point being um

you know so many co-founders introduced

i really just believe in the serendipity

of creating

you know moments where you know that

person and that person just should have

that chat

and i force it to happen so because of

that because i really believe in

serendipity as well

um i do try and say yes to people and

help them out so what was happening to

me at gravel was

we were flying we were like number one

in the app store and all this stuff so

the inbounds start coming like thick and

fast right and so i was like

i can't do this the way i was doing it

which is like all over the place

i'll go to old street at 6 00 a.m

every single tuesday and wednesday um

and between six and nine i'll do like

sessions right

if you come meet me between that time

and like your 45 minute slot

i'll fit you in and then tuesday and

wednesday became tuesday to thursday and

then before i knew i was doing it like

almost every single day

trying to be so helpful and it was great

because i i i

get loads of energy from that right like

so much there's

you know great quote of you know there's

no such thing as altruism because you're

ultimately doing it for yourself and i

believe that

um however so it's like find your

motivation and then turn

it but i overdid it and so the result

the net result was like one day i woke

up from my alarm trying to do it and i

like basically couldn't move

and that alarm basically you know kept

going for the next few days and i was

like nope

i just can't do it i can't go to work i

can't get out of bed

it's really like it's really strange

time but

the thing that's really interesting to

me this time right so i analyzed that as

partly burned out and i was trying to do

too much to and

not spending enough time on myself not

having any rest not

being sensible about my personal space

and my life

which was stupid but the kind of thing

you learned the hard way quite often

and then the other thing was obviously

like i was working on a business that i

wasn't very happy and i was having more

fun meeting these people and helping

like make introductions than i was

working my own business

now with heights you know very

consciously aware of the opposite

problem to be true so we just talked

about burnout from some of your insights

right

one of my fears from heights is you know

i won't see burnout coming

because now i'm living my purpose now i

am so passionate

i get so much motivation and pleasure

from working on heights that i could do

this 24

7 um and i diarize

stopping myself right i literally put in

my diary to stop

like all my things rest naps peloton

like all of the things like i talked to

you earlier about like my shakti

meditation these things are in my diary

because if it's in my calendar i'm going

to pay attention to it and i'm going to

respect it and if i don't i won't

respect my own boundaries because i know

that i'm intrinsically a bit of a

workaholic

and if i'm passionate you can't stop me

so i have to stop myself

sure and knowing you know taking

preventative measures towards things

like burnout

if you are happy um i think has been a

really like mature

decision that i'm really proud of taking

this time around because it's a bit like

the imposter syndrome right how am i

going to overcome it i'll write a

newsletter every week great i feel way

less

like that now same thing burn out i

don't feel like i'm going to get burned

even though i've been

sitting in my bedroom pitching you know

to investors like all of february and

march like it's not

a great existence because of lockdown

and if i said you yeah listen

uh i'm the same i'm a workaholic and all

these things i'm an entrepreneur i'm

going to build a big business

dan what is the one thing i can do to

avoid myself getting burnout what would

you

say that is you would say is diarizing

and scheduling time

to do other things like you know i had

near l on this podcast and he talked

about

he writes the book indestructible he

talks about how he will literally

schedule time in his diary to

see his to spend some time with his

partner and take his kids for a walk and

and those kinds of things is that what

you're saying you're saying yeah yeah

i mean i've got um i do have like a list

of habits that i've created for myself

and you know talking about habit

formation um terrible error everyone

makes is like oh i'll listen to dan i'll

do all of these you know habits no i

pick like one new one a year

to be honest with you my number one

mental health hack full stop

um that i say to everyone everyone

always asks me my one thing mine's going

for a walk

um you know spending an hour or so

walking if you can do that without being

distracted i mean

i listen to podcasts and audio books but

i also go for some where i don't take

anything with me and i just go for the

walk

um that's my number one health hack um

because it's not only good for your

brain but good for your body

and because it puts you into there's two

things one we live in london

actually to be honest like gets way

worse of rep about rain than

you know you would think because i don't

go out with a raincoat most days

um but even if it's raining you still go

out and that's a great moment to just be

with the elements and accept that you

know things aren't always perfect even

the manifestation of rain

you know it's a great moment to just go

out and be like things aren't perfect

but i owe it to myself

for my own rest and for my own space to

do this today

and the other reason honestly is because

on average i get to listen to about 50

books a year just by doing that one

thing so as someone who's like a

lifelong learner and happiest when i'm

learning

the amount of books that i've devoured

by stacking that

you know habit onto my daily walk has

been the fastest way to grow

yeah and so we talked about burn out

there the next thing so and that's that

was during your time at gravel

the next thing from that tweet was

anxiety

yeah so the anxiety and insomnia were

completely

linked with each other so a really

really fascinating experience

to me the most interesting of all of

them really because

at the time i got and so at the time i

got insomnia

and this is when anxiety starts to build

because anxiety does go with it insomnia

very well because

uh you start to get scared of going to

sleep which builds anxiety you can't

really sleep when you've got anxiety so

it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy

like every single night so i had

insomnia for six months

and my symptoms were i'd go to sleep at

midnight but i'd wake up at 2am

and at 2am i was wide awake and there

was no going back to sleep whatsoever no

matter what i did

so this was a time when business was

going well i was pretty happy in life i

was getting married

um yes my dad had passed away but my mom

had just recovered from cancer

so i'd had like the whole fear of her

and she's already had it before and

recovered once so very unlikely to

recover the second time but she had i

have a roof over my head i practice

gratitude

you know like i am just that archetypal

[ __ ] that's just too smug for the

world

and i just suddenly

couldn't sleep and i was like i don't

understand

like i have everything that i wanted and

i'm not i don't even want much

you know i've worked on that stuff so

where has this come from

and you know

basically chronic anxiety the feeling of

chronic anxiety

is lots of sweating lots of self-doubt

um lots of um almost like a bit of a

personality

change in me you know outwardly i'm

quite confident but you know this

experience with anxiety was sort of

really making me question everything

about what i say

how i feel who i am and you know

it was in this cycle where if i'm about

to go to sleep

i'm not going to be able to go to sleep

because of this you know these feelings

of doubt

and stories i'm telling myself and it

became this perpetual illness and by the

way i

tried so many things right because when

you say doubt

yeah and the story self-doubt self-doubt

about business

self-doubt about business self-doubt

about who i am um

and about why i'm feeling like this

anxiety is such a complicated thing

because

um you know there's a great uh i think

it's by lao tzu

the it's not a perfect um verbatim

quote but he said something like

depression is a symptom of sadness for

the past we've lived

anxiety is obsession and confusion over

the future you're gonna have and that's

why like mindfulness and being present

is the antidote

and i think i really resonate with that

because you know my own depression

experience was

loss of my father the past my anxiety

was like the person

hey was anxiety about the night i night

sleep i'm about to not have

but also like you know who who am i

going to be what's going to happen

how long can i live like this feels like

it's self-fulfilling in a way as well

exactly so the the truth is i tried all

these different things so like i went to

i did therapy i did sleep therapy i used

all the apps calm sleepio

i tried you know uh cutting out alcohol

i tried drinking

much more alcohol like i tried you know

like you name it i'd like not smoked

weed for a while i was like right that's

it getting a weed habit back

you know like anything that you could

possibly do to just like stay

zonked but i went to the doctor and he

recommended me sleeping pills

but that really irked me i mean we just

talked about lost connections johan

hurry right

um i don't appreciate medication

that will work that night as solving my

problem and i'm smart enough to know

that it wouldn't solve my problem it

would just help me sleep that night

so i've still got those sleeping pills

and i never use them and i kept on going

for this journey the search for why

this was happening and it led me in the

end to a dietitian

which i'd never worked with before and

by the way i didn't even know what a

dietitian was and heard of nutritionists

because isn't that just

everyone on instagram um but a dietitian

uh had no idea but it turns out a

dietitian is basically a nutritionist

with a scientific degree they can work

in the nhs and they work with sick

people

so if you have a sick problem like

insomnia you go to a dietitian and they

will literally

tell you medically what they can do to

affect your

your experience and she just said to me

um

she basically asked me about what i was

eating and my habits and like all this

kind of stuff and i told her and this is

someone who i think i'm quite healthy

generally speaking and she just said

um you're basically not getting enough

brain food and i was like

i don't even know what that means like i

don't understand the context of that

statement and she was like well

let me put it this way your brain is an

organ right

it's 60 fat 90 of the fat in your brain

is this one compound called dha and most

people that come to me

with essentially mental health problems

which is what you currently have

have nutritional deficiencies and don't

realize there are three main things that

i would recommend in your condition

one is omega-3s the other is b vitamins

because again that's for energy so she

explained that i'm having a spike at 2

am

so i need that spike not to happen i

need to have like much more slow release

of b vitamins in my energy supply in my

body every day

and then the third thing was blueberry

extract because it's an antioxidant and

would help make lymphatic system whilst

i slept right

she's saying this stuff to me i'm like

so skeptical i can't even tell you not

only not a supplement taker

um but she's now recommending me three

supplements and i've been given pills by

the doctor and i'm like