and this is why tiger woods keeps

working this is why warren buffett keeps

working it's why richard branson keeps

working

the only way in which businesses or

people will become successful

and truly perform to their optimum this

amazing question

is probably the best question i've ever

been asked

[Music]

camille thank you for joining me today

it's a pleasure to have you here so

early in the morning i

i typically on this podcast will won't

introduce people because

um i i'll do a little bit of a

pre-introduction but your

your background and the work you've done

specifically with high performance

people and successful people

is so compelling and fascinating that i

feel like

i want you to introduce yourself and

i've read through your bio multiple

times

it was deeply inspiring and i think

without an introduction everything we

talk about from here

without the perfect introduction which i

feel like only you'll give

everything we talk about from here on um

might not have the

the context it needs to have so who is

jamil creation

i'm a performance coach and psychologist

so i've

spent my time working with some very

good sports teams some very good

business teams

some successful people and i guess what

i do is i help people cultivate a

mindset for success

so i always say that for us to act

differently we need to think differently

i'm going to create different behaviors

different actions this is about creating

different

thoughts first so i guess what i do more

than anything else is help people change

their mind

so i said there's new new opportunities

new possibilities that will come from

new perspectives

so a lot of my time is spent working

with people not to give them new skills

but more to allow them to understand the

skills that they've already got

and then create a perspective for them

to use it differently

so um as a performance coach i think

everyone can be better

everyone can perform better at terms as

a matter of i guess trying to create the

mindset the attitude um i guess some of

the precursors to those

to the performance which are which are

beneficiary which have benefit to them

and so you said that everybody has the

skills and i i you know

i i see that in a lot of my friends i

see that they have a lot more sort of um

natural capabilities than they've

managed to sort of give the world

through

their actions if someone has an ambition

to be something

if they have the ambition to be you know

a sports

uh star and you've worked with a lot of

athletes and you've worked with business

people or they want to start a business

what you tend to see it and what i tend

to see in my inbox is

a lot of people with intention but there

seems to be something preventing that

intention from turning into

action or like behavior into an

achievement yeah

yeah and i think you know turning

ambition into achievement

is the key because most people will have

good intentions most people will be

wishing and hoping to be better

there's a big difference between wishing

and hoping and believing and executing

upon it

so i think that the people who genuinely

execute on it

probably want it more for a start at a

monastic key no one's ever wandered

around the bottom of a mountain

and then simply found themselves at the

top and it does take that determination

the resilience it does take the ability

to

execute upon ideas to drive success

so i think the key is the desire which

is fueled by having a

purpose a mission a vision towards what

that end goal should look like

a lot of people um can't quite

they say one thing they say that their

their purpose is to

go to the gym yeah for example we all

say one thing and do the other

yeah and why is that like because it's

sometimes hard to distinguish with

someone

whether that's their real sort of desire

or whether they're kind of like

virtue signaling to themselves if they

want to be something

or you know they want to start that

business or become an entrepreneur be

you know get a six-pack but then their

actions show that

quite a different story so i always

wondered that with my some of my friends

always think are they

do they actually want that or they just

it's very easy

to say that this is what i'm after and

much harder to do it

and i think one of the reasons why is

because um we have to invest we

self-invest

so we probably all know these um kids at

school who are great footballers at 14

15. you think you know what they're

gonna make it they're just brilliant

they're gonna make it

um or great track athletes at 12 and you

know and you just think

they're special but they don't make it

and the reason why they don't make it is

they don't self-invest

so the people who make it are the ones

who

um will get up on a rainy friday morning

and rainy saturday morning to

go and practice whilst their mates are

in bed the ones who will

practice on a friday night when their

mates are out drinking

and so talent is not enough you need

talent plus teachability

so talent plus the ability to be

open-minded agile in our thinking

to commit to practice and turn that

practice into something which develops

our talent even further

so there's lots of people with talent

and business lots of people with talent

and sport

um but i guess that we need to be

open-minded enough to invest

in how we practice our talent to become

successful

so you know there's no there's no

substitute for practice i get lots of

golfers who say to me that yeah can you

make me better

yeah and yeah the number one golfer in

the world will practice

more than any any amateur you know and

you know their lies the truth

but you know we need to we need to apply

ourselves in a particular manner and so

we need to be practical about how we

exercise our talent

you create good feedback loops to

understand what we're doing

gain better personal introspection and

self-awareness

to allow us to use our talents

differently how do you give someone that

purpose though like i'm trying to think

like

so we know we know practice is like so

incredibly important to master something

but my

i guess my question is um how would you

give someone

that motivation because i i i guess

you can't give someone purpose a lot of

us spend so much of our lives trying to

to motivate people right

to motivate friends families you know

siblings whatever it might be

i'm wondering if there's a thing we can

do as like loving

friends or whatever to to give someone

that kick yeah so i mean a couple of

points i guess on that in regard to

discovering purpose

um it can't be done for someone so

i always said purpose is never achieved

it's attained on a daily basis

so the mistake that people make with

purpose is they confuse it with an end

goal

so here's my purpose and have this

vision statement of what they're seeking

to

you know achieve or create whatever it

might be and get practical and tangible

about it

but purpose isn't that purpose is

achieved on a daily basis that

um sorry purpose is never achieved it's

attained on a daily basis

and this is why tiger woods keeps

working this is why warren buffett keeps

working it's why richard branson keeps

working it's because it's

never achieved it's attained on a daily

basis so i think that you know

we need to find something which is

purposeful to us

um and then we need to lose ourselves to

it on a regular basis

so once we start to become more purpose

driven and express ourselves in a

particular way

obviously being a good colleague being a

good business leader been a good sports

person is not seeking to impress

it's about seeking to express and be

ourselves in the context of our work

so once people can find that um

within themselves um then i think they

can direct their energy and their focus

in a particular way

and become much more purpose driven in

how they go about their daily activities

but you can't give someone that purpose

it has to be theirs

and i think life is about timing i think

some people find that very late some

people find that very early

and um and it makes no difference we're

all individuals in regard to

helping other people make change we're

almost too

quick to go towards behaviors so we tell

people to be different all the time tell

our team members you should be more

collaborative guys

i don't guys need to be more innovative

and tell our children to

keep their rooms tidy so we're

constantly talking to people about

behaviors

say to our friends that you should give

up smoking or eat healthier whatever it

might be

the only way in which you change actions

is by changing thoughts

so we think and then we feel and then we

act that's how we work

so if you're constantly working on

actions we're telling people to be

different and this is why new year's

resolutions fail

from tomorrow i'll be different start

doing this i'm going to stop doing that

and we start talking about actions and

behaviors

um we need to go back to the um granted

a precursor of all our

actions which is our thoughts so the

only way in which you genuinely drive

commitment rather than compliance when

it comes to change in your team in your

friends you know and yourself

is by changing the words and pictures in

your head or their head to drive

different feelings and then different

actions there's um

a little tip which i sometimes give

leaders and so i said leaders never say

to your team you're gonna make a change

you say to your team you're gonna make a

change they won't like it um say to your

team

i'd like to try and experiment they'll

they'll be on board with it and um we'll

give that a go that's okay

so even just a difference in language to

allow someone to think differently or

make them feel differently and hopefully

therefore

choose to act in a different manner and

how how would i get someone to change

their thoughts

you know i think um i think the best way

is gamification

um what holds people in place is what

they believe to be true

and then so um so people will sit around

a boardroom table

and i'll discuss strategy and i'll say

you know look you know we can do this

but we can't do that

and they'll have a viewpoint on budgets

on consumer buying behaviors

on on compliance and governance and

that's what holds this in place

so what we need to do is break free of

some of the parameters that we think

are in the way so if we got people

around the boardroom table

and said look guys let's just this

strategy piece that we're going to talk

about let's imagine we got an unlimited

marketing budget for it

if we had an unlimited marketing budget

for it i know we haven't but if we had

what would we be doing how would we be

doing it um you know if we had no

marketing budget

what would we be doing now what we're

doing here is that we are helping people

to move outside of the mental tram lines

that we all operate under

and under habitual thinking so let's ask

some what if questions

can you imagine that you know a life if

you weren't smoking

i told what it looked like i don't know

what you'd be doing today if you weren't

smoking what'd you spend your money on

that you saved on cigarettes

just played the game of what if so let's

break free of some of the things which

are holding

people in place by um not by conflict

not by arguing and and debate in a

confrontational manner

but finding some common ground and

working from there and the common ground

is

let's play a game and you you said that

you know about

people finding that purpose um in their

lives you we hear this

uh phrase um a lot which is

find your passion yeah and i almost feel

that it's it's

in many respects quite harmful because

it that question is kind of loaded it it

assumes a singular passion for a star it

sounds that you can

discover it like an easter egg and then

and also

um the the context in which that

question usually sits in it implies that

once you find it

then it's you know then it's the the the

it's a can of unlimited like happiness

and

orientation forever and then that's

yours and it

i just feel like sometimes language can

be harmful because it

it simplifies very complex things and

sometimes multifaceted

plural things you know so i wondered if

that you know that phrase

uh find your per find your passion was

something you um

you felt similar about or yeah i do i

mean yeah it's true that passion can be

a

significant multiplier of human

potential

so you know if people are passionate and

engaged in a business

they can direct their energy in a in a

worthwhile meaningful manner

so so so it's it's worthwhile but you're

right and um that you know there's a big

difference between

passion big difference between happiness

and joy

um some are in the moment at home i

think joy is in the moment and

i think happiness is something um that

we continually continually

adjust towards um your passion can be a

significant multiplier of human

potential

particularly in the workplace so it does

have a

place it is something which is useful to

understand and then ultimately

it always comes down to personal

introspection and self-awareness for me

and i think that um we need to work

harder at understanding ourselves

and when we are constructing a mindset

which is conducive to performance

so we optimize our potential when we're

in a particular state of mind

and that state of mind might be passion

it might be relaxation

it might be enthusiasm might be

enjoyment but we need to almost get to

know ourselves

and know that um there are certain

things which enable us to do others

and once we work backwards and

understand what that looks like maybe we

can gain some more consistency

i say to a lot of sports people and to a

lot of business people that

consistency of mind gives you

consistency of play

and i'm convinced of it and the more

consistent we can be in our thinking

we understand um the building blocks the

component parts to success

yeah the more success we can have and

how does one establish consistency of

thought

because i completely agree with that i

completely agree i've seen that in my

own life when i've been

consistent with my thinking i've managed

to you know

perform the same habits every day um but

then sometimes

i'll lose consistency in my thoughts

because i lose um

[Music]

i lose i guess i lose attachment or sort

of my anchor with my my why

yeah and i talk a lot i've talked a lot

in this podcast over the last couple of

weeks about

this realization i've had this year with

the gym which was every year

february march i was incredibly

motivated to go

fired up trying to look good for summer

yeah

and then obviously once you look good

and summer has ended

it's almost like you've lost your anchor

right so you get into

september and the why which made you go

and to think consistently every day

has been is evaporated and i'm tr i

can't get myself to go to the gym in

october

right you look in great shape for it

this was the other

video i realized so this was the year i

realized that this is the year i booked

the trend for the first time in my life

because i realized that i thought to

myself every single year

i i do it for this period and then i

stop and

they're two different people august

steve and october steve don't know each

other they're like you know what i mean

they're like twins that were separated

at birth and so this was the year where

i realized what i was doing and why

i was losing my motivation so i thought

[ __ ] it you know i'm gonna anchor my why

to something a bit more uh long term

and without a timeline so i said to

myself listen i persuaded myself of all

the reasons

why i want to be healthy and view my

life as one season

and that's what's allowed me to

persevere and also i got a bit pissed

off with myself i thought

you're really like that like like

you're that vain and you're like you

know but so yeah do you know i mean i

always think that

consistency of mind comes from

understanding the intrinsic quality of

our decision-making processes

and i say that a lot to people in sport

and in business so

yeah you can make a good decision and

have a really bad outcome

you can make a bad decision have a good

outcome and this is why i've worked with

leadership teams who have confused luck

for genius

and really bad decisions with a great

outcome you know markets have changed

competition's done something something's

just worked in their favor

um so um so it's really important for us

to

not judge our decision making by our

outcomes

and we often do so we'll say this is a

good decision because it resulted in

this

or this is a bad decision it resulted in

that

and we can only understand the outcome

retrospectively

so it's wrong to measure our decisions

by the outcomes and

we need to go back to how we made a

decision in the first place and once we

start to understand the intrinsic

quality of our decision making process

we can become more consistent in how we

make decisions

and therefore have more control over

those outcomes so i think that you know

two things i don't i think that and then

we'll use you as the example here steve

um that consistency of mind will come

from knowing how we make decisions okay

i understand that we put

our weight into evidence how much we use

prejudice and bias and opinion whatever

it might be

but let's understand how we make

decisions and in that way we can be

consistent

in um how we apply our logic and

thinking and feeling

try and determine some best outcomes and

then the other thing and um

as you've just positioned is reframing

let's stand back and create some time

and space

to understand and um you know why we do

things and why we don't do things

now i always say that um the people are

most successful and i've had a pleasure

working with six sports people who got

to number one in the world

i can guarantee you one thing i had in

common was that

um um they um they never made big

changes

and um it was small changes so i'm a big

big believer in the one degree of change

if you take two parallel lines and you

move one by one degree it may not seem

much at first

but it's a really big difference between

where you start and where you end up

so um everyone's trying to you know make

a dramatic change and see change from

tomorrow i'm going to be different

i think it's about doing something a

little bit more than what we've been

doing it matan a bit more consistently

and then the other thing with these

people who obtained you know what i call

um super achievements at home so they

did really really well

um is that they actually worked on their

strengths they started to understand

what was good about them

and do that some more so we think to be

better

as human beings i'm gonna be better as a

business or a team of people we need to

fix our weaknesses

um i'm not sure that's true i actually

think it's more about understanding our

strengths and playing to them

so um i've actually worked with teams

before in business and in sport

who have actually weakened the strength

by trying to strengthen a weakness

if you think about it it's ridiculous

and actually weaken the strength by

trying to strengthen the weakness we

need to be careful

so i think understanding what's good

about us understanding you know

where our behaviors come from in regard

to the thinking before it

and then reframing some of those words

and pictures and i guess that's what

you've done with your gym

example because i guess change some of

the words and pictures in your head

to therefore feel differently which has

resulted you and acting differently

yeah and i really you know i was i was

valuing intensity over consistency and

intensity wasn't sustainable right so i

was going through the summer like

to the gym two times a day i was

starving myself like eating things that

i

i didn't want to necessarily eat yeah

and the the consistency came from being

a bit more um

realistic with myself being yeah you

know if you missed the day of gym it

doesn't matter you don't have to

perspective

yes perspective isn't it yeah and i

think do you know it's funny because

again

something so many sports people have

worked with and business people who

will lose perspective they'll lose the

tournament and it's dreadful you know

win a tournament i've made it you know

this is it this is

turning point for me now they win a big

contract you know in business

and you know this is us now we're set up

you know or they lose a contract

and um and life has never been so

dreadful um but i think that we need a

better perspective on things so their

ability to think more long term

term to be more forgiving you know to

understand with more

um reality at uh what's good and what's

not so good

is probably the way forwards and in

terms of responsibility

it's a it's a topic that's fast

consistency is a topic i've been so

fascinated about over the last year

as i've reflected and done has been sort

of introspective about the things i've

been able to achieve

whether it's getting millions of

followers on social media whether it's

growing my business or

going to the gym it seems that the the

very

ironically consistent theme across all

of them was consistency it was being

able to do

perform x habit for a long period of

time and then you have that

the eighth wonder of the world shows up

and things start compounding in your

favor

very quickly usually um but the other

term that i've been fascinated with

is responsibility and as i've

i started out as an 18 year old kid

dropped out of university

disowned by my parents no money at all

and

the one of the things that i noticed as

i look back on 18 year old steve

versus a lot of other people that i see

that that are living in the same

[ __ ] area i was living in and

stealing pizzas like i was stealing them

um was they don't take responsibility

for their situation

they kind of see themselves as a a

victim of the situation they're in

whereas when i was in that situation not

only did i not view it as my destination

i was literally taking photos of the the

nothingness in my fridge

and the how dire my life was because in

my mind and i

started keeping this diary on facebook

which i really randomly

wrote in my diary that a tv company had

asked me to keep this

because i didn't actually know how to

tell my own diary right that i thought i

was gonna

show the world this someday um i

i didn't see it as my destination and i

took full responsibility of my

circumstance it wasn't anyone's fault

but my own and i was gonna change it

but then one of the things that makes me

concerned um about our generation and

about

certain political narratives and certain

themes i see on the internet

is like a an avoidance of responsibility

for your life and the the default to

blame someone else

and i'll be honest it's something i see

more in the western world than i do

in the african village i was born in

yeah you know so

i wanted to know if really from you like

what role responsibility plays in

people's outcomes

okay that's a big one yeah um

you promised me some easy questions um

no

so um responsibility is huge it's just

massive it's um

it's it's one of the pre it's one of the

predetermined

of successful outcomes is our ability to

take ownership and accountability so

circumstance and situation push and pull

us in different directions on a daily

basis the world is complex it's

uncertain it's unpredictable

all of those things the people who

perform best have huge levels of

responsibility

and ability to respond to those

circumstances and situation no matter

what they are

to drive the best outcomes or

opportunities so i always said there's a

circle of concern

water cooler conversations the stuff

that's going on you know around us

circumstance situation incidents and

accidents

then there's a circle of influence and

the circle of influence is where we make

choice that's what it's about

so responsibility is all about choice

for me i

absolutely guarantee you now that the

circumstance the situation is not a

predictor of success

and um because we know of people who

were born into privilege

their great role models had good access

to opportunity to wealth

they had good guidance and good support

and they ended up dying

heroin addicts in prison we know some

people born with a physical disadvantage

now a lack of good role models now the

lack of guidance lack of support lack of

opportunity

they grew up to be some of the most

successful people who have ever walked

this earth

so it proves beyond doubt that attitude

is more important than intelligence or

facts

and i genuinely believe that to be true

in all areas of high performance that

attitude is more important than

intelligence or facts

i always say give me i will over iq any

one of my teams i'd rather if i will

over iq because high technical expertise

and talk about the western world at the

moment high technical expertise is no

longer as valuable as it used to be

and the reason why high technical

expertise is no longer as valuable as it

used to be

it's because we can google things that's

why so knowing a lot

isn't where your success is going to

come from yeah it's not what you know

which is important

it's how you think about what you know

and how you bring it to life with your

character and personality

to determine the best outcomes or

opportunities

so you know i genuinely believe that the

only way in which

businesses or people will become

successful and truly perform to their

optimum

is taking full accountability and

ownership we need to almost move away

from circumstance and situation which is

a distraction

so um the more that we realize that our

success is dependent upon us

and not on situation the better and

because the world is so unpredictable

i need to simply learn to dance on a

shifting carpet

not see the rug being pulled from under

our feet you know life is a game of

continual adjustment

and it doesn't matter what happens it's

how we react and respond to it to

determine those best opportunities or

outcomes

and i think that you know it's funny

because initially i'm working a lot of

businesses

and um on culture on team

um people strategies and the focus on

responsibility has never been higher

mainly because we've been asked to stay

apart people are having to determine

their own work schedules people have to

determine their own working week and um

they're going to have to

take responsibility for driving the best

outcomes and

whilst they're not surrounded by team or

working with directly with a leader

so it's been a greater call for

responsibility i wonder whether

in answer to your question i don't know

the answer to this

um i wonder whether we'll see a better

shift or greater shift towards more

responsibility in the western world

because i agree with you i think that

many of us will see ourselves as a

victim of circumstance and situation

and not necessarily see the beauty in

the chaos because of it

you talk there about the the internet as

well in the power of the internet and

how that's been a bit of a leveler

which is yeah which is a really

wonderful thing i think um

what how important is it do you do you

think when you think about the

successful people you've worked with

to be a sort of self-driven

learner beyond school um

did you see in the specifically in the

sort of upper echelons of like business

the ones that are the people that are

most successful are

proactive sort of self-driven yeah i

think

i think it's true i think that um i've

said that our only

sustainable competitive advantage is to

learn faster and better than your

competitors

so you know and you think about that for

a business you think about that for a

leader you know you think about as a

sportsman it's probably true isn't it

you know our only sort of

sustainable competitive advantage is

just learn faster and better than anyone

else

two powerline lines yeah yeah and i

think that you know and i think that

i think that how can we learn faster and

better

yeah if we're not proactive lifelong

learners

and so you know and i think that you

know learning isn't necessarily about

being

taught um we don't necessarily need

teachers

um it's a strive for greater curiosity

you know i think curiosity is worth

more than creativity at the moment but

it's a strive for greater curiosity it's

a matter of being

massive being open-minded it's a matter

of being um

agile in our thinking so we can deploy

resourced of opportunity as it becomes

visible

um it's about um it's about

self-discovery

so it's about a variety of things which

are based not necessarily upon

traditional learning

but more in a way in which we can open

our mind up to

experimentation and feedback you know

and

understanding ourselves differently and

i think the best

leaders um you know have this ability to

you know reimagine repurpose reinvent

i don't think they're beholden to a

particular or wedded to a particular

mindset

but that's for a lot of people that's

terrifying the thought of

experimentation and being agile and

reinvention

i've seen that in my own business i've

seen over the years i was um

i was known as being the guy that would

walk in i think a lot of

business leaders are walking in the

morning and be like we're going in a

different direction everyone come in

this room we're going to launch this

part of our business and we're going to

take it

we're going to experiment and i i would

often say to our team that

experimentation is like at the heart of

all of our strategy it's like why

especially as a social media company

where our platforms

social media changes every day there's

new updates pushed by facebook and

instagram every day

um so our company slogan was keeping

keeping brands at the forefront of

what's possible

which meant that we had to be agile but

i'd often see people in my organization

that were

really against change fearful of it

they would take you know they would

resist it

yeah you know uh and i i i am

i wonder how you if it's i always

wondered why it was i think some of them

had

levels of imposter syndrome so they were

you know

they were just uh just trying to get a

hang of the role they were in and not do

more that

you know they were already you know but

i wonder what your thoughts were on that

i think i think people don't like change

because they don't know what it results

in

and that's one of the things so let's

take um

let's take uh moving your desk yeah

someone sat at our desk for ten years in

a particular office he said you know

what you need to you need to move down

the corridor

i'm going to make a move but uh people

weren't like the slightest

um if you said to them that you know you

need to move down the corridor you know

we really appreciate the move we're

going to give you a million pounds at

the end of the year because of it

they'll be trotting off with their

potted plant in hand i guarantee it

so i think that because people don't

necessarily know what it results in

why should we invest in doing something

different which is uncomfortable because

it goes against our mental tram lines

our habitual thinking

so now you're asking me to compromise my

patterns

and i don't know what for and i know

what's going to result in

um it could be good it could be bad so

therefore i'm not sure i want to go to

the trouble

without investing in this change when i

haven't determined you know the result

of it

as human beings we like patterns um

that's good and it's bad

and um it works in our favor sometimes

sometimes it doesn't

so we like patterns and so we like

consistency

and we compartmentalize and how am i

getting a viewpoint on the world and in

fact if you look at um

the office is a good example the office

is a great example of keeping people in

patterns you've got your phone on your

desk here

your computer there come in at a certain

time working a certain way take your

lunch at a certain time

so we're conditioned to work in a way

which is reflective of the consistency

which takes out variance in business so

you think that

management has been around for about 100

years and the reason why management's

been around for about 100 years

is to reduce variance at time because

then you can guess then you can scale

so businesses got bigger a lot bigger

100 years ago

and um because of the ability to keep

people

habitual so um so because we've become

conditioned to do this

and everything around us keeps us in in

in a pattern that we quite like being in

as soon as we start to move outside of

that there's a level of discomfort

so i guess leaders can allow people to

make change atta and embrace

change um i guess there's a few points

one

it's always best if it's co-authored and

co-created right

um so let's involve people in what that

change looks like

um it's always best if um

we look at our organizations or teams as

a community

instead of as a team or an organization

at the moment communities are

outperforming bureaucracies and

hierarchies when it comes to maximizing

human talent

so let's try and form a community and um

let's co-author and co-create

and and then um let's have a look at um

peer recognition peer coaching peer

challenge

it doesn't need to be a top down thing

done to people it can be something which

can

happen from the inside out you know it's

meaningful when

when something is endorsed by others

that that you know you are

that you feel an affinity with sure what

when you read about the steve jobs of

the world and the elon musk's of the

world they seem to buck

all of the a lot of the trends that you

hear in like management coaching they

seem to be

very authoritarian you know i was

reading about from i was reading steve

elon musk's biography and there's

stories of him just like

calling someone into the office and

saying how much does it cost to do this

they'll say 10 million he'll say do it

for

5 and do it within 30 days and they'll

go away feeling puzzled but they'll get

it done

yeah he has this culture of like

intensity and when you start he says to

the teams that this will be the hardest

you've ever worked in your life

but it'll be the most worthwhile but

it'd be the hardest you've ever worked

and

and i you know and then steve jobs as

well i've heard the stories of how he

was

you know how he built the company at

medlo park and um

he seemed like the antithesis of what

you would read about in a business book

but obviously these are two of the most

successful entrepreneurs

the world has ever you know seen so i

wondered if there's a

i'm trying to appreciate the like

how they've achieved their success by

being so different from what all the

business books say

from all accounts they're you know what

i mean

yeah i mean i think a couple of things i

guess that you know you find what works

for you

um i think what they have on their side

is they have a really big

purpose statement it's a really big

mission so there are lots of companies

with

mission statements but very few on a

mission and i guess that when it comes

back to

um the point i made earlier that passion

been a significant multiplier

of human potential i guess that these

people have the ability to engage people

so to tell a story attempt to inspire

and motivate

so i guess that you know there is a

there's no doubt lots of logic

and time there is no doubt lots of

rationality which is used in their

management leadership style

you know but what you're describing to

me in the people that you're describing

i think you can really get behind

something that someone passionately

believes in

and is something which is worthwhile and

purposeful

yeah on such a grand scale so i think

when they're talking about

um and things which will change humanity

um i think it's possible for

you know us to be swept along at him on

that particular vision and

so maybe it does mobilize people in a

different manner because of who they are

what they believe in and what they're

trying to achieve yeah no that's

probably true i mean yeah you think

about i

mean the example i'll give you is jfk

well yeah i mean i mean jfk do you think

that jfk's speech about putting man on

the moon

you should read it actually rather than

look at it um

it's a rubbish speech when you read it

the term and the reason

and the reason why is that there's no

logic to it until there's no rationality

so he says we put a man on the moon and

the reason why he gives that

we should put a man on the moon is

because it's it's hard and not easy

which is a rubbish reason to do anything

it's hard

that's why we're gonna do it yeah so um

but not only did

they end up doing this it mobilized the

whole nation

behind the space race and the whole

nation behind science in fact

um the reason why was that because logic

was low

inspiration was high it was such a

um it was such a literally a moonshot it

was literally such a big goal

and so ambitious so expansive you know

that people bought into the dream

and i wonder whether and i don't know

you know

the examples you gave at steve jobs and

elon musk whether whether people just

buy into that dream and they buy into

what they not necessarily what they're

seeking to do but what they're seeking

to create

and maybe there's a lesson for all of us

who manage and manage teams that

maybe it's not about trying to you know

get people to do stuff it's about people

to

you know to create stuff is that you

know my time to be

part of something which is worthwhile

and meaningful and

sell a big vision and tell the right

story

and you know engage people emotionally

you know all of this stuff about

psychology i know a lot of stuff

i read a few books yeah you've read a

few books about a few books a week last

tuesday

yeah you know don't tell my clients

um you know when people

come across people like you they think

that you've got all the answers and

because you've got all the answers or at

least an answer to most things

um they think that you must live

a life of sort of perfect

decision-making

couples children have the worst worn

shoes yeah exactly

um so yeah what what do you like at

living these things that you're aware of

speaking of performance one of the

things that's integral to performing at

the highest level is nutrition it's

something that i

i guess i took a a long time to finally

believe

but that is why having hewlett's

response for this podcast is such a

privilege because

there was a time in my life especially

when i was early in my business career

where i wasn't getting the vitamins the

minerals and i wasn't having a sort of

nutritionally complete diet i was

if you look at some of my old photos i

was definitely lacking protein as well

and a lot of that maybe it was an excuse

was because

i was um i was busy and

when i discovered huel when a guy called

mike walked past me in the office

wearing a heel t-shirt and shaking a

little bottle and

you know upon my curiosity of asking

what was in that and why he was drinking

it

it really really did change my life and

so here's what i want to do

you know this particular podcast today

has been about high performance and

mindset and how we

how we become our best selves and how we

teach our teams to become our best

selves

i'm going to give away this week five

boxes of your big boxes right

all you've got to do if you want one of

those boxes is hit the subscribe button

on this podcast wherever you're

listening whether you're on youtube

or whether you're on the the podcast or

wherever you might be and leave

a review if you leave a review on the

podcast or just keep your instagram

handle or your twitter handle in there

so i can find you

but if you're listening on youtube then

please um just leave a comment down

below

and any comment you leave enters you

into the competition

and i want to know what you think of

huel so um it's as i say i say it with

full honesty it's changed my life and i

really believe that those of you who

aren't getting your sort of

um all your minerals and proteins and

all the good stuff i think it can change

yours too

what do you like at living these things

that you're aware of

yeah i'm rubbish next question

and the reason why is that two things

that one um

we're all human because we're all human

you know we're all

prone to make mistakes in our doing and

our thinking

um and i think that being you know

better never stops

so therefore we've got to continually

adjust you know we don't

find hints tips gimmicks that make us

better

and then we just apply them regularly

and it works

so i guess there's a level of

inconsistency

which is reflective of the fact that you

know that

i'm a human being who tries to do better

you know give me an exam on a regular

basis

on an example well you're aware of the

truth but you're just

not oh you might you know on the amount

of time so as you know i've been a

guest speaker for 10 years now so when

the world is normal and sane

you know i would um go off four days a

week

anywhere in the world so twice a week i

was abroad

and i'd speak to a few hundred people

i'd stand on stage i'd do an hour's talk

about

performance psychology and i'd come off

um

so i did that for ten years four times a

week and um but

um but i'd often come off and think

cause any good i say to the stake at

stake i would come up to me and say that

you know

that was really brilliant this is

exactly what we're after it's perfect

are you happy

oh yeah it's exactly what we're after

but you sort of covered the brief yeah

yes yeah absolutely it's exactly what it

was

send me an email let me know the

feedback and then

you get you know maybe even get some

feedback which is like you know you get

sort of scored out of five

it's almost like 97 percent five and um

i'd be scouring for the threes and twos

and think that you know there's like you

know 500 people there's that sort of

five people who put two

and so it was all right i just think

[ __ ]

but um but uh but i'd be wondering why

what did i do wrong what was real and

it's

unbelievable it's unbelievable the

amount of times i've sat in front of an

audience

and um and you know maybe 300 people

there there's someone with their arms

folded like that

and they're just like i think he doesn't

look engaged

you know and so out of friend of people

there's something there's most people

writing down things or nodding or

smiling or whatever it is

it's amazing how many times i can pick

out the one person who doesn't seem to

be enjoying

it so i think i think look i think it's

a couple of things

that i'm i'm always prone to you know we

actually

we wait quite highly stuff which we

think we're not doing well

you know we're trying to fix what's not

right about us what's not good you know

you know what we should have done and um

what we could be doing um i think i'm

still prone to that

rather than sort of enjoying the you

know the success that i've had really

what about things in your personal life

in terms of like

like you know health and like being a

parent

and like yeah pursuing goals and

ambitions you have in your personal life

what about those things

yeah i think that you know um

health-wise i need to take some advice

from you

we should i'll lie down and tell you all

about it i keep i keep meaning to

i keep meaning to run more and get to

the gym more there's always an excuse

um so you know i'm the most demotivated

motivational spooky

life's pretty [ __ ] and um so um

so yeah so i think i need to work out

more um i'll tell you the one thing that

gets me

and um i've got three children i got

sort of um four four-year-old twin girls

and a nine-year-old boy um is that you

know as a psychologist

and um yeah i'm pretty good at i've sat

in front of some sort of pretty

difficult clients

some really difficult clients you know

some people at the absolute top of their

profession

and um and they're they're [ __ ]

screwed in their thinking

and um and you know and you know i've

dealt with it

four-year-olds and nine-year-olds just

do me i can't you know i just

you try and apply psychology to it it

doesn't work so the level of frustration

that comes about in regard to being a

parent again this is my point that you

know all human beings

and um so um so you know you try

you try all the influence persuasion and

negotiation

and all the psychology and all the

techniques that you know that um it

doesn't work on four-year-olds

it doesn't work it's so funny the guest

that was here yesterday joe wicks are

the exact same thing he said i'm like a

you know calm guy but he just said you

know

when i my daughter i'll tell her that i

want to just put her down so i can clean

the counter and she just won't be

the irrationality of it is what it does

yeah and um so

you know you know it's funny because um

i've had some really good sports people

sit in front of me and say

you know give me you know you've got

something that makes me better then

and then you give them something and

they go away they come back a week later

and they say i tried that it doesn't

work have you got anything else it's a

bit like going to the gym

working out for half an hour going home

looking in the mirror and says yo let's

crap that

i don't like the gym film refrigerator

um and so

and this is my point that that you know

it's not about tools gimmicks and hints

it's about striving every day to be

better than what you were yesterday

um i worked with a golfer it was very

very good

really good um and you know literally

top 10 in the world

it's about a whole year and uh with just

a piece of paper in his pocket

and he used to play with his piece of

paper in his pocket um and it used to

just say

um what did i enjoy today and what did i

learn today

2 questions on it and then in the

evening he just answered those questions

so that whole year forget the numbers

i'm not going to look at numbers i'm

just going to answer this question

so i've had a good day i've had a bad

day doesn't make any difference i'll

just answer that question

these questions what did i enjoy today

and what did i learn today had the best

year we ever had and i'm just answering

those questions

yeah and in a way there almost needs to

be more simplicity to not using tools

and techniques not to try and apply

psychology to a four-year-old you know

but to just try and consistently enjoy

and learn on a daily basis

so i guess in regard to like you know

yeah i'm still prone to say

god i need to get running okay i've been

drinking all week i need to do some

exercise at the weekend

um and you know again it's falling into

the trap of the

i've been at the mercy of the shoulds

and musks rather than

thinking about at um you know what am i

enjoying what am i learning

what surprised me this week um

you know where am i experimenting and

what have i discovered you know this

week about myself and then once we start

to talk like that

maybe we can so i guess apply more

consistent thinking

and therefore change our doing so you

want to run let's use that as an example

yeah i need to run more definitely i

need to run more why do you need to run

more

and um do you know because i want to

improve my heart and lung health i think

i think i've got tonight it's all right

for you because you're young and fit and

um

but um but i think i've got to an age

now where i realized there's more of an

importance on

exercise so you know before i could just

i'll just do it anyway you know

pick up running every now and then i'll

be able to run i go to the gym every now

and then i'll

have a great time at the gym for a

couple of weeks and then i'll skip it

um yeah but now you know but now it's

it's different a term you know now i

sort of feel

at them as though you know i could be

fitter it should be i think this year

has also

sort of illuminated that for everybody

at the importance of health i think

it's made us all well it has for me made

me think about my health a lot more

no not for the vain reasons that you

know young guy would think about their

health because they're trying to

trying to get laid or something but

because you know i i want to live longer

and i want to have more memories than

those kind of things

did you know near ielts he wrote a book

called indistractible i know yeah i'm

not familiar with i've read it

you're probably familiar with the book

yeah i know the name but i am yeah he

said this quote to me which really

changed my life and i think about it all

the time okay when i find myself

procrastinating from doing something or

whatever he said that typically we think

we're humans that are seeking

pleasure but we're actually living in

the avoidance of discomfort

and when i think about the things that i

procrastinate against or whether you

know we're at six

seven o'clock in the evening you think i

can't be bothered to go whatever it does

ring true to me that i'm actually

avoiding some kind of psychological

discomfort

yes and so i now whenever i feel myself

like this weekend i had

had this big project to do i also had

this talk that i had to do

um for my manager dom and i found myself

like

and then i've got the book my book which

i had to do go through the whole book

from start to finish in a day

and i'm like low-key finding myself oh

just clean the countertop because that's

important

and i said i stopped myself i thought

you're avoiding the discomfort

associated with

sitting down for nine hours until six am

in the morning

and doing the book and it wasn't until i

realized why

you know what i started that term has

been like this flashlight that i shine

in like the corner of the room we're

after hiding the you know the thing that

i don't want to do now

so i wondered if it was you know for

some in in regards to your running

if it's in some respects similar like

you're avoiding some kind of discomfort

where you think

i'd rather play i'm convinced of it

because running such an unpleasant

experience

for me it's a really good example i

can't stand it

so but you're absolutely right that uh

that

you know i totally agree with you that

you know we we do sort of go about our

lives trying to seek

moving out of that space of you know of

of being uncomfortable

this is why we don't have conflict

conversations in the workplace this is

why we don't challenge our own thinking

this is why we don't like change and uh

you know we like we like to operate from

a comfort zone that's what we do

um so yeah no i agree with you i think i

think because running is such an

unpleasant experience for me that's

absolutely awful um i'm probably

avoiding it

because i just don't want the experience

whereas riding a bike

isn't so bad for me um so so yeah so

maybe therefore but

um instead of sat there at four five

o'clock thinking god i need to go

running in an hour

and i really don't want to i'll go

tomorrow

maybe maybe what i should be saying is i

need to go running no you don't um

why don't you ride the bike why didn't

you yeah why don't you just have stairs

um okay well i'll have a go on it after

this

but um we should have done a whole

interview on that i'm gonna kill two

birds with one stone

i hate running as well it's like i hate

the impact on my knees yeah just

i don't want to be outside yeah that'll

be swerving past people so

i got the peloton um it's low resistance

it's

fun super engaging and gamified because

you see the data you see everyone in the

world and where they're placing you see

jenny

55 in north carolina's beating you yeah

make me feel bad

i hate jenny forever that just makes me

realize how unfit i am and how much i

hate other people who are fitter than me

but i mean interestingly it proves how

fit you are because you said you don't

like running because of your knees and

swerving past people

i don't like running because i can't

breathe so you're already winning

chicken egg that'll be cured if you

start running

um but but on that point of um of

psychological discomfort um

how does somebody in your opinion

face a challenge that they know is

uncomfortable like

you know to be honest i don't i don't

want to go to the gym or do all these

zoom calls all the time it's not like

you know i'm not getting comfort or in

pleasure out of doing

two hours zoom calls at the moment about

like you know biotech or whatever it is

the thing that i'm involved in

but i'm doing it and i wanted to know in

your case what what does it take someone

who like doesn't want to do something

because they know it's uncomfortable to

say do you know what [ __ ] it i'm gonna

do it today

yeah and is it does that go back to that

point of of having that like

long anchor purpose yeah i think it does

i mean

mohammed ali said i've i've hated every

moment in the gym but i did it so i

could live the rest of my life

like a champion yeah and it's in in a

way it's true isn't it that

that you know there are there are

component parts

to success um and i think the

two of the interesting one is and the

one that most people probably relate to

is failure

so people don't like to experience

failure but you know for example

failure is part payment towards success

so the price of success

is always paid in full and in advance

the price of success is always paid in

full and in advance you can't be

successful and you start making mistakes

you can't be successful and start having

your two hours zoom calls but uh you

know in a way you

need to fail we need to have these awful

conversations we need to kiss lots of

frogs we need to

you know do deals which don't work but i

mean you do all these things to enable

you to be super successful

so um there's lots of things that um

again it comes back to reframing if we

see it as part and parcel a stepping

stone towards a greater advancement

they're probably more likely to do it

you know if you see failure as something

which is

we're trying to avoid and it's just

awful and you know and it screams to me

that i'm useless

um then we're probably going to stay

within a comfort zone you know

if we embrace failure then we see it as

part payment towards success

until we see it as something which is um

an active contribution a stepping stone

towards

you know being better maybe we're more

likely to indulge in it and not have the

discomfort

that we associate with it so now i feel

that

um it is always good to think about you

know what you think about that end goal

have that purpose that

vision the mission you know what you're

seeking to achieve and create

um and then think about what those

building blocks look like

because you know all great achievements

are the result of many small

achievements

um you know you had joe wicks here

yesterday he wasn't super successful

overnight

and he probably kissed a lot of frogs

i'm sure you talked about it you know

um know his business and korean personal

life went in all sorts of different

directions like ours

at um and you know it's not necessarily

as we said earlier it's not necessarily

what what happens it's

it's our interpretation of what's

happening which will then enable us to

use that as feedback towards something

better

and do you find with a lot of the high

performance people you've worked with

that their childhood is a definitive

reason as to why they are the way they

are today i'm going to try and

articulate this if i can

but i've i from speaking to guests on

this podcast and also from a bit of

introspection to be honest

i tend to think a lot of people that

have

extraordinary outcomes have often had

some kind of extraordinary early

experience and i'll give you a couple of

examples

the a lot of the billionaires that i

know are really really successful people

that i know

um cite their father's disapproval

as the reason why they've always had a

chip on their shoulder and they've

always strived

obsessively to be enough right because

their father told them they weren't

enough

yeah um have you seen that in successful

people that there's the

the thing that makes them just a bit

[ __ ] weird

is often a you know i think one

particular

instance with a friend of mine a comment

their mother made when they were four

that they just can't shake

yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i i'm not a

psychiatrist so i don't delve into

backgrounds in the way that maybe

someone involved in psychiatry would

yes as a performance coach i tend to

work with how people are now

basically and um tell me about what

you're thinking and doing what you're

trying to achieve

and more so than to try and deconstruct

you know or analyze

some of the you know the earlier

experiences um so that's not my thing

having said that though you're

absolutely right there seems to be some

sort of correlation between

extreme experiences and then how people

interpret or translate them

and in fact you know as you're talking i

was trying to think of the book i can't

think of a book i wish i

could now and they talk about in this

book the fact that so many super

successful people

politicians actors um business people

lost parents when they were young and

there's a

direct correlation believe it or not

it's a direct correlation between

people losing parents when they were

young and then becoming super performers

be incredibly successful

um and the psychology behind it was that

you learn independence

and um it's almost easy if you've got

these loving fabulous parents who

you know hopefully you know many people

have got um

you're not as independent you know

whereas you know if you lose a parent

young you

end up sort of doing things for yourself

a little bit earlier

and so maybe that going back to that

responsibility the ownership piece and

i'm having to sort yourself out

and um you know means that people learn

some of the skills which enable their

talent

to then be used differently in the

future but there is a direct correlation

believe it or not i wish i could tell

it's like

the real psychology in the actual

article in the actual piece in the book

um but you just reminded me when you're

talking about it so i do think that some

people do have these extreme experiences

and i think that um it's almost easier

to

get to know ourselves and get to think

about life

and contextualize things um you know if

we're experiencing things which are

outside of our

i guess our normal field of vision i i

resonate a lot with that i um

you said you know lose a parent but the

reason i resonated with that is because

i've said multiple times on this podcast

again

um that when people have asked me why

why i was successful i i cite that when

i was younger my parents weren't ever in

the house

and that made meant that i had to find a

way to make money to feed myself or

you know my mum was never in the house

when i went to bed and she was never

there when i woke up because she was

just

she slept at her shop sometimes my dad

worked in london for six days a week

which was four hours away and i and it

was only

of the four of us in our my family the

four siblings

that wasn't the case for my older

siblings when they were

younger or when they were my age my mom

and dad were in the house every day

doing date nights

together and then when i grew up by the

age of 10 i could leave the house for

three days or two days

and they wouldn't actually know that i'd

gone and so that meant that i became

like this sort of self-autonomous kid at

like

12 13 14 50. and then started businesses

at 14 and then you know

went off but you could have gone the

other way as well couldn't you oh

you know with 100 you know with that

level of freedom and autonomy

but not the maturity and you know to

deal with that freedom

um my friend my best friend said to you

and i'll never forget where i stood when

he said it in this takeaway shop he said

stephen

you're either going to be a criminal or

a millionaire

and it was because i had that my

independence created this connection

where

i knew that my outcomes were going to be

a direct result

of my behavior i always think of like

school dinners as the perfect example

for a lot of my childhood maybe up until

the age of about nine my there was

always like two quid on the counter

which is like okay you take that to

school and then by ten the two quid

wasn't there anymore

yeah so it was like waking up in the

morning and being like how am i gonna

eat today i'd have to find a way so i'd

go and sell cigarettes

or you know i'd like i knew that there

were cigarettes in this this room

upstairs which my mum had got from

nigeria one one year

so i just went to school and i was just

shopping cigarettes or chewing gum and

it was that that connection i made super

early that

my outcomes are a direct and only

correlation of sort of

connected to my behavior um

so i resonate with that a lot and it

kind of explains the difference between

four kids that grew up in the same

household

and one the three of them went to

university llc cambridge whatever and

one of them dropped out of everything

got kicked out of school and became an

entrepreneur

it's true isn't it so it's not

necessarily the um

yeah the experience is how we translate

that experience and exactly how we

channel our feeling into something which

could be productive or destructive

you could have become a criminal and a

millionaire and got a job at this tory

government

you could be

yeah but the last thing i really wanted

to ask you about was um

you know this idea of distractions

social media is uh

made it incredibly easy to distract

ourselves and you see you know teams

becoming

much more distracted at work because of

all these screens and you know the

digitalization of the world and

individuals and

what are what's your thoughts on on why

we're so distracted and how to overcome

it

yeah um it's true that we are distracted

i think focus and concentration

have to be practiced so many things can

be improved

so um whether it's resilience whether

it's concentration

whether it's courage all these things

can be practiced so many think courage

for example i say courage is like a

muscle the more you exercise it the

stronger it gets

so it's possible to exercise all these

things and be better at them

and i think that um it's fine to be

distracted because it's actually quite

nice

to have different stimuli and different

um provocation

and so we just need to choose when it's

good to have that provocation

and change and when we need to

concentrate we need to practice both

now um uh here's the thing for you adam

is that

as human beings we don't multitask so

multitasking is a lie

so for all the um all the girls and all

the women watching this

and um oh listening to this um

i'm sorry to tell you it's not true you

don't multitask better than men

it's true amen it doesn't happen we're

both equally as bad now we're both

useless at it so what we do is we do

rapid switching

so we don't multitask we just want to

talk about exactly um this is why

actually

um i can't remember it was a couple of

years ago that the um

the blackberry network went down in abu

dhabi for a weekend from friday to

monday

had a 48 decrease in car accidents that

we get

really because as human beings we don't

multitask you don't

like check your text and drive well it

doesn't work