You've made a great decision. And I say

this as impartially as I possibly can,

but this podcast is it's really the

reason why I started the Diary of a CEO.

It's to hear these kinds of stories from

these kinds of people. And I've got to

be honest with you, I spent about a year

asking this person to come on this

podcast and have a conversation with me.

Today's guest is Dr. Ari, and he's been

on the podcast once before. He's a a

world-renowned high performance coach,

and he works with some of the world's

most accomplished athletes, actors, and

everyone in between as they try and

reach a mindset state that is conducive

with success, with happiness, and with

overall fulfillment. But he's not here

to talk about that today. He's here to

talk about something very, very

different, something uncomfortable,

something unimaginable.

So without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the Diver CEO. I

hope nobody is listening, but if you

are, then please keep this to yourself.

[Music]

Sometimes in life, you have these

unbelievable,

somewhat cruel coincidences that occur

that it's hard to make sense of. And

last time you came on this podcast, I

would define it as for me anyway a

pretty cruel coincidence because we had

a conversation um to do with life

generally and and success and the

mindset and psychology and all the

things that you're an expert on. And for

whatever reason that day, I decided that

I wanted to spend 30 minutes talking

about marriage, cheating, love, and

asking you these um very personal

questions about monogamy, which I've

never done before with any guest ever.

And which I really had no place or

reason to ask you more than anyone else.

And it just feels to me for what we're

going to talk about in part today that

that was a bit of a cruel coincidence.

And you know, one of the questions I

asked you was, um, do you believe in

monogamy? And then I asked you, can you

love someone and cheat on them? And when

I listened to that podcast back, I now

noticed um, why you laughed?

Because it wasn't You laughed. Yeah. And

it wasn't a normal laugh.

It was like a real belly laugh, right?

Like a bit of a nervous belly laugh.

Yeah.

After we came off air on that podcast,

you told me something. Mhm.

And uh it even gives me goosebumps now

thinking about what you said and it gave

the whole team in the room who overheard

our conversation goosebumps as well. So

after our 30-minute conversation about

marriage and monogamy and cheating and

love, what did you say to me?

Showed you a story.

Yeah.

And that was uh about 2 weeks earlier.

I'd been traveling back from London home

and I got out of the train station

and my wife picked me up and we got into

the car and we had planned to go and

have brunch at my favorite little spot.

They do amazing Corvos Rancho sauce. I

was very excited and she said, "Let's go

straight home. I've made sandwiches and

she doesn't make great sandwiches." So I

said, "No, no, I think the branch is a

better option." And she said, "No,

there's something that I need to tell

you." And I said, "Is it bad?" And she

said, "Yes."

And I said, "Is it about the marriage?"

And she said, "Yes." And then we began

to drive back

and I had this sinking feeling in me.

And we're we drove for about 5 minutes

in silence. And then I went to put my

hand on her lap and she said, "Don't

don't touch me cuz you won't want to

after I've told you what's happened."

And that's whenever it dropped. And I

remember that 10-minute drive back home

then felt like an eternity. I was just

looking out the window and we got home.

We got into the house into the kitchen

and I was standing by the kitchen table,

hands rested on it

and I said, "What's happened?" And she

said, "I've been having an affair with a

man from work."

And I remember just tears began to

stream. I I didn't move, completely

motionless. Tears began to stream. And

then she said, "And that's not all." And

she said, "I'm pregnant with this child.

And in that moment,

I felt like I lost a lot. You know, I'd

lost my wife. I'd lost life we created.

I'd lost

uh the dog, our home, her my

parents-in-law, her family, everything

that I'd really held dear. If someone

said, "What makes a meaningful life?" I

would have described these things. And

it felt like they just been snatched

away. It just came

crumbling down like a house of cards.

And then fast forward two weeks and

Steve

decides to ask and I remember because

the first thing No, no, it was

fascinating cuz the first thing you

asked was, "You're married, right?" And

I did this high pitch laugh and I go,

"Yes."

And then and then the conversation

flowed on and and it's themes I'd really

thought about. Can you love someone and

cheat on them? Does monogamy

exist? Is it natural? Are we set up to

live a life where we're in one

relationship with one person only? And

so over the past

18 months,

it's been a process. And some of these

themes have been very real to me.

I just as I reflect on that conversation

and when I played it back um after you

told me, so we come off air, we stood

next to the table and the microphones

and you you explained to me what's

happened. I'm for the first time in my

life completely speechless.

And the thing that blew me away even

more so than what you had said to me was

your ability to be so calm and rational

and objective in the answers you gave.

And even when I listen back now,

although there was that laugh, which was

a bit of an indication, um,

you were able to speak about someone

betraying you or being deceitful with a

level of calmness and apparent um,

emotional uh, sort of restraint

that I I just admired so much from

someone that was right in the middle of

the emotional hurricane and had just

been victim of that act. And um you said

there you know about the topic of

monogamy.

How did that change your opinion and and

and also the subsequent 18 months of

processing on the topic of monogamy? Um,

so as a quick aside, I like that analogy

and we touched upon it briefly about the

hurricane and and it's funny actually

because a friend of mine showed me a

book about a week ago and it was

different personality profiles depending

on the day that you'd been born on. And

whenever we looked mine up, there's a

little meditation at the end, uh, a

summary and it said, "The stillest part

of the hurricane is its center."

And that essentially has been uh a

philosophy that's guided my life where

sometimes there's a storm and it's

horrendous and it's raging. But if you

can cultivate that sense of stillness

and calmness and clarity deep within

you, no matter what life throws at you,

you will be okay. Because the second

part of

whenever I was told that news and and

the tears were were streaming and I felt

that sense of loss and overwhelming

sadness.

It was a remarkable moment where in that

instant and I can only describe it as a

whisper. I heard a whisper within me as

if it was resonating from a heart that

all will be well. Four words all will be

well. All will be well. And I knew even

then I knew whenever you know there's

tumultuous emotion I knew everything's

going to be okay. I will get through

this. I'm going to have to walk through

the desert and I'm going to have to

endure a horrific amount on an emotional

level but it's all going to be fine.

How did you know that?

I think it's something that I've

cultivated over over 105 years and

that's why I do what I do now because I

want to help other people to be able to

reach that stage and and it began on a

journey of um Buddhist exploration and

understanding the nature of life and I

came to this realization that life

involves suffering.

There's no promise that it's going to be

happy golucky and really pleasant all

the time.

really horrific things happen in life.

And on one level, there's no way that we

can ever rationally explain it away.

Sometimes bad things happen, but it

doesn't end there. It It's a bit like

that line that someone once said to me,

whenever you're suffering, don't ask

God, why am I suffering? Ask God, where

are you taking me?

And so I've I've developed this ability

to

begin to view my life as though it's

happening to someone else, as though the

experiences, the thoughts, the emotions

are are something that I can I can

almost take it back on and have

perspective. And I can see it and I can

feel it. But I know that my thoughts,

that isn't just who I am. My emotions

isn't just who I am. That's a temporary

experience. and and throughout my life,

no matter what has happened, even

whenever it's been brutal,

it's often shifted me in a new

trajectory and there's been a new

meaningful life ahead of me. And I and I

knew even then, she's going to be okay.

She'll be okay. It's going to be a tough

road for her too, but she'll be okay.

And it's going to be a tough road for

me, too, but I will be okay.

Anger.

So many people in that situation whether

rightly or wrongly just because of the

way that they are would have reacted

with anger. And for some reason you were

both calm in telling me you're calm now.

And this remarkable thing which I I

think I

I struggled to understand a little bit

is one of your first concerns was her

well-being.

Mhm.

Versus your own.

Mhm. Mhm.

Why?

Because I loved her and

I was in the practice of of placing her

emotional well-being and

her happiness on the same level as mine,

if not sometimes first and foremostly,

but at least on on equal playing field.

And

and I was just so in that habit. And

that was the toughest thing to let go

of. the thing that I still struggle with

today and and I'm still it's the one

part that I realized the other day

that I still had a fear of upsetting her

or of her not being okay.

And so that's something which just

just really developed and and was so

ingrained. And it's interesting on on

the point of anger.

If you'd said like your wife

partner for 10 years, married for five,

has an affair, and is pregnant with

another man's child, how will you react?

I would have said anger. I would I'd be

furious,

but it wasn't there. At least not

initially. It was this overwhelming

sense of sadness. It was just that sense

of loss of knowing that again that she's

potentially done something that she

might regret for a long time. And I

don't want anyone to go through that

experience where they feel like they've

[ __ ] up hugely even if the the future

is positive in that moment. My sense is

there will be regret or at least shame.

And so

it was a sadness because that was

connected to the loss, the sense of loss

of losing things that I held dear. Feels

like you're living outside your body

a little bit. I guess that's what

self-awareness is or at least emotional

awareness is because you're being able

to see that situation which is utterly

horrific for anyone.

Yeah.

Um from as you say from like a bird's

eye view as if you've like

Yeah.

looking down on it.

And that's allowing you not to just feel

your own emotions but to feel empathy

towards theirs.

Yeah. And I think I think that's the

path in my eyes that's the path to

enlightenment. And I'm not saying that I

am enlightened, but I think we're all on

that path and we're all progressing

through it. And for me, that's what

awareness is. It's being able to

experience

internally your thoughts and your

emotions and externally what's happened

as if it's happening to someone else.

You're like holding them out in front of

you and analyzing them, right? So like,

but if you're not holding them out in

front of you and it's happening within

you, then you are just almost like a

passenger on a roller coaster.

Totally. Whereas holding them out in

front of you kind of makes you the the

conductor or the roller coaster or at

least uh

able to yeah understand and if you can

understand then you can address and then

you can overcome.

Totally. I love it. Whenever you're

holding it really close to you you're

fused with it. Anything that happens

instantly will will provoke a reaction

whether or not it's emotional or

behavioral. But when you hold it in

front of you there's a bit more space.

Now you still experience it. I'm not

going to lie to you. It was a brutal

couple of months. I cried every day uh

for maybe 3 months for hours hours. I I

would I would walk and I'd process what

happened and if you want we can talk

about that at some point um about my

process of moving through it.

But yes, it was I'm not going to say it

wasn't um emotionally painful, but

I wasn't defined by that pain. That was

just a part that I was experiencing.

Let's talk about that. So a lot of

people experience grief in many forms

and this somewhat feels like this the

central emotion you described it as a

loss. It feels like a form of grief.

What was your process for moving from

you know finding out that it had

happened to to where you are today where

you're you know you've

quote unquote processed it I imagine as

much as you

might have been able to at this stage.

Yeah. Some you know

what was your process?

So where I think people often um catch

themsel in a in a counterproduct

productive cycle is whenever they try

and avoid experiencing what they're

experiencing. They try and shun it, lock

it away, put it in a box, disconnect

from it, deny it, and they just focus on

the future and where I am going. And

they might try and rationalize it. Uh

this happened because of X or because of

Y. And then they try and forge ahead.

And I think it comes back to bite them

at some point.

The simplest truth is that we can only

ever experience

one moment at a time. And I remind

myself of that. I don't need to think

about right now the financial

separation, the divorce, what it means

about friends or family or or will I

meet someone again or how long will it

be or what will my life look like or

where am I going to live? So many

different factors that could be

overwhelming. I just decided to deal

with one moment at a time. All I need to

do is deal with this one moment and what

is this one moment bringing me and

accepting and welcoming. It sounds

strange but welcoming whatever comes up.

And so whatever emotion came up, I

didn't try and push it away or shunt it

or deny it or negate it. I let it I let

it sit and that's why I cried so much

because it was so much sadness. Did you

write down the emotions you were

experiencing?

So I didn't write down the emotions but

what I did in the next step is so the

first step was awareness and accepting

whatever emotions I felt and and a lot

and seeing that they come and then they

go you know that there'd be moments

where I'd be laughing with my brother

and then crying a minute later and then

talking about something else.

The second step was reminding myself of

reality

because I was so ingrained in

in an internal model of what life looked

like. I have uh strong stable marriage

in which my partner subconsciously

uh you know implicitly I believe is

faithful. We're meant to be together.

We're going to be together for the next

50, 60 years until one of us dies. Uh,

we're going to have children together.

That was my internal model.

And I had to rip it apart. I had to take

it down. I had to dismantle it. And I

had to remind myself of the reality of

the situation. I had to I had to accept

it. I had to accept it's over. It's not

going to change. There's no going back.

the final nail is in the coffin and you

need to take that on board.

And I'd also write any so I'd write down

reminders of of what had happened. And I

also wrote down any insights I had about

the situation that I could remind myself

of. And I wrote down how I wanted to

handle this process. Um I can actually

read a few out if you want. Please. I've

got um so I I I literally would just

write them down on my phone. Um and so

afterwards I I began to split them up

into different sections.

Mhm.

But this one was for the process.

Hold yourself to the highest standard.

Choose actions that you can be proud of.

How you get through this process is more

important than how quickly you get

through this process. Cuz for me it was

important that I still lived with

personal integrity, that I didn't

I wasn't warped or changed or um

consumed with vengeance or acted in ways

that was out of spite or out of emotion.

I wanted to be able to look back on this

in 12 months, 18 months time and still

feel good about it, have a clear

conscience, still be able to put my head

down and feel as though I handled that

to the best of my ability.

With God, you can get through this. You

can become stronger, wiser, more caring,

more compassionate, and more loving.

And that's another theme that actually

the deepest moments of suffering can

actually

be opportunities for growth. Even if you

don't want it, there's something there

that that you can learn and can can grow

from.

You don't need anything from her

anymore.

Um and there and then different

reminders. You have nothing to feel bad

about. You aren't responsible. You have

nothing to feel guilty about. Nothing.

Because there were moments where my mind

would almost begin to in a way play a

trick on me and begin to try and create

reasons um to feel bad or to try and

create shame. And at those times while I

would accept what came up, I decided not

to pursue that line of thinking because

that didn't fit. Whenever I was calm and

clear, this came to me. And so I'd write

down whatever came to me. Whenever I was

in a place of wisdom,

then when the emotion hit

and I'm not seeing clearly and I've got

on a clouded lens, this little baby

became my best friend cuz I'd go back to

it and I'd remind myself and then it

would it would reshift

my mental paradigm.

I have this um before, please do keep

your phone open because I want to hear

the rest of this.

Okay.

But I have this um analogy I make in

moments where I experience a very

similar thing that I'm going to tell you

one example.

Yeah. It's It's the closest I can come

to resonating with what your experience

is. I was dating this girl

and I broke up with her and three days

later I find out that she's had sex with

someone else,

right? And I can only The way that I

described it was I'm flying on this

plane

and I'm the pilot

and then suddenly when I find when I

when I look down and hear the news that

she's just slept with somebody somebody

else. Yeah,

it was like terrorists stormed the

cockpit and they chucked the the [ __ ]

rational pilot out and they were

threatening to crash the whole [ __ ]

thing. And my whole objective as the

pilot is to get back into the cockpit

before they crash this plane into the

side of a mountain because if they crash

the plane, I'm [ __ ] And so

what I wanted to do was lose my

integrity. I wanted to crash the plane.

I wanted to get her back, take revenge,

tell her she's a this, this, and a this,

and a this, and a this. And it was this

because I've got to a place of where I'm

able to hold situations out in front of

me a little bit more than I ever was,

you know, in the past.

I was at war with myself.

Yeah.

It was the terrorists on one end telling

me to crash the plane and the pilot

saying, "You've been here before. You

know, you just need to keep the plane in

the air until you

and and I and I'm so I'm going for a

run. I'm like, "Steve, go to the gym. Go

for a run. Clear your head." I'm at the

gym. The terrorists that And I'm like,

"I'm going to finish. I'm going to

finish. They're back in." And then I

come back and back in.

Yeah. Yeah.

And the crazy conclusion to all of this

was my friend called me

and said a few things to me about

um why she did what she did. My friend

said to me, "Remember Steve, you

rejected her.

She really, really, really likes you.

And she's done this as a way to make

herself feel better for the rejection

that you gave her." And it sounds like

such a pathetic thing to say, but what

it made me realize in that moment was

much of the reason why the terrorists

had stormed the cockpit was my ego was

bruised.

And the thing that coached those

terrorists out the cockpit was my friend

massaging my ego again and and letting

me know that some of those stories we

sometimes tell ourselves when we get

rejected about why we got rejected.

Yeah.

Weren't true. It's not because you're

not enough.

Mhm.

It's it's in fact because of something

you've done. And that was the reason why

I managed to take control of the

cockpit. I did nothing. I didn't punish

her in any way. Didn't even mention it.

And it was and so yeah um but please

two two things come to me there uh one

is this uh emotion of anger so

fascinatingly 95% of the emotion for me

was sadness

5% was anger and the anger struck early

on it was the first night and I remember

I my brother had come over and and was

staying with me and I woke up in the

middle of the night the night of that

day that she told me and it was like My

body was burning. I I haven't

experienced anger like that before. It

was It was almost like I was a flame. I

was uh just infused with rage. And I

began and I really feel for my brother

having to witness this, but I was just

moving up and down

shouting as loudly as I could, "My wife,

my house, my wife, my house." And for 5

minutes it was like a supernova. It just

was

just seething.

And then it burnt out

and I cried and I fell asleep and and

the next day and then the anger didn't

really come much. It would come now and

again.

But what I realized was the anger was

intimately attached to my ego.

The anger came whenever I was attached

to my ego. And I'm very fortunate that

I'm able to detach from my ego the

majority of the time. But when I didn't,

that's when it hurt because it came

about my wife.

As if I own her. As if there's

ownership. As if it's a part of me.

I don't own her. She's free.

My house. I don't even own the house.

The mortgage company did.

You know, but as soon as we link it to

ourselves and make it about us,

Yeah.

then it it's it's a place of

vulnerability because you're getting

inflicted. It's like getting stabbed in

the heart. You feel that,

but it's an illusion because we are not

our ego. You know, we can see our ego

and have a relationship to our ego, but

once we're fused with it, we're in

trouble. And the other part of it is

that

because I don't want to come across like

a saint like I didn't have dark thoughts

or, you know, I wasn't angry and I just

handled it with grace the entire time.

But I operate from a principle that the

mind has a mind of its own. And I think

we talked about it last time.

But essentially, your mind will populate

your head with thoughts

automatically. You're not asking for

them. It'll just come up with judges,

evaluations, assessments, predictions

about the future, past memories, imagine

scenarios.

You know, if I said, "Okay, Steve, don't

think about anything right now. Just for

10 seconds, have a complete blank mind,

and I'm going to say a word, but don't

think about anything." Okay. So, we'll

just do it now. Don't think about a

thing.

Mhm.

Birthday.

Okay. Right. So, even though you were

attempting not to think about anything,

your mind came up with it automatically.

And

from my perspective, we are not our

thoughts. We have thoughts. Our mind

comes up with thoughts but that's not

me. I am the observer of the thought.

Now why is that important? Because my

mind would come up with really brutal

thoughts.

What thoughts?

Like torturing the guy.

Really?

Yeah. Getting in a car, finding him in

the back of the van and doing this

elaborate elaborate of of of what I

would do to him.

Absolutely. Because my mind was thinking

about

about seeking vengeance.

Justice. Just justice. And it was like a

Hollywood movie

and somehow no one found out and I went

back along my day, you know, and so

yes, you can have those or whenever I

was in deep pain, the thought of ending

my life popped into my head.

I didn't have any intent. I wasn't

making any plans. I didn't want to kill

myself. But my mind wanted a way out of

the pain.

It was suffering and it wanted an end to

it. And what is one option? Killing

yourself. And so when I've got a

different relationship though with these

thoughts, when I think about torturing

someone or I think or when my mind comes

up with a thought of torturing someone

or my mind comes up with a thought of

taking my life,

there's no judgment. I don't think, oh,

that means I must want to do it, or that

means that I will do it, or that means

I'm a bad person, or that means that I'm

evil.

It just means my mind, I think, what is

my mind trying to do? It's it's trying

to solve a solution and it's probably

struggling to cope and it's trying to

find a way to make me feel better. M Neo

on this podcast who who came on this

podcast talked about how the mind is

actually you know people think we're in

the search of pleasure but the mind is

programmed to avoid discomfort

we're constantly in trying to seek you

know avoid it and that's why we

procrastinate because we've got a big

project which is we might not feel

competent to complete or you know we're

a bit there's a feeling of discomfort

around it so we go and wash the dishes

or do the hoovering

um on the on the you mentioned wanting

to torture this man

I know right so like a moment of the

mind having

my minded Steve, you didn't want to.

Your mind wanted to.

I'm a peaceloving kind of guy. I just

But I wanted to know how do you feel

about him?

So, it's really interesting. I um

this stage the the process went

awareness and acceptance

uh how I wanted to handle the process

and then at some point I realized I

needed to find forgiveness.

I'm quite a simple person and I don't I

don't like having a lot of uh items or

objects or physical possessions and I

don't like having a lot of emotional

baggage either. I want to travel light,

you know. I want to travel so lightly I

could pass through the eye of a needle,

so to speak. And the weight of

anger or resentment or the feelings of

betrayal

were weighing me down

and I wanted to forgive her and I wanted

to forgive him. And honestly, you could

view it as ultimately selfish because

it's not going to impact their life, but

it's going to make mine a lot easier.

And during lockdown, I was in California

and I was lucky because in Santa Barbara

where I was staying, the mayor didn't

close the beaches because there's a lot

of families there. And he said, "As long

as you uh socially distance, it's fine."

And I'd run along the beach. And I had

this process where I would say out loud,

I would imagine her and I would say, "I

forgive you.

I'm sending you my love. and I wish you

all the best for the future. And I

processed so much by that at that point

because I've been able to understand and

see her situation and in my mind I I

have an idea of how it was created and

why it unfolded.

And so there was compassion there and I

was able to reach that really relatively

quickly. That that was easy. The hard

part

was with him because I didn't know him.

I didn't know his personality, his

background, who he was. He could be a

great friend and an excellent son or uh

potentially a very

loving partner,

but all I knew about him was that he was

prepared to take certain actions.

And so

whenever I tried it with him and I'd

say, "I forgive you." It was like there

was a knot and a wimpse and I'd like and

I would say and I'm sending you my love

and I'm like

and I wish you all the best for the

future.

You're still imagining pulling up in

that van and jumping out and

blindfolding him dragging him sticking

something up his butt and

how do you like me now?

Uh, and so but I would just notice that

I don't do you know there's tension

there and and actually I will say this

was a year after I'd heard the news. So

I didn't try and do this initially. I

think it would have been uh premature to

have attempted this whenever I wasn't in

a space where I had a lot more clarity

and and groundedness and and and process

the emotion. The emotion wasn't being

clouded at this point. Now was what am I

holding on to?

And for a matter of weeks, five, six

weeks, I was running two, three times a

week. And I would just try that try that

process. And then one day it was it was

remarkable. I was running along. And I

said, "I forgive you." And there was

nothing. And then I said, "And I'm

sending you my love."

And I felt easy. And I said, "And I wish

you all the best for the future." And I

could tell that I meant it for them.

or their baby, you know, for them

together as a family.

And I felt at peace

and it's a bit like that saying, my yoke

is easy, my burden is light. Now,

genuinely, it sounds strange, but I

don't really feel anything for them.

It's almost as if, you know, if you came

to me and said, um, I've got a friend

called

Mike and he's going through a really

difficult time. he was involved in a

really complicated emotional

relationship. Um, would you mind sending

out positive thoughts to him and saying

a prayer for him? I'd say sure. Like, he

hasn't ever done anything to me. I don't

have any connection with him. No

problem. It's almost that sort of

relationship now where they're just

other people on their journey. And I had

that shared history with with my wife,

which I look upon fondly, particularly

the first eight years. We had a

wonderful marriage for a long time, but

there's no emotional tinge. There's

it's like an emotional umbilical cord.

I'm imagining it as like

it's a letting go.

Yeah.

It's a letting go.

And so that was that was a part that for

me because I think there comes a time

where you have to say, okay, I process

it. I've processed it. How long do I

want to hold on to it for now? And

that's becomes my own choice. Do I want

to carry this and let it define me or do

I want to finally let it go and see it

float down the river?

And I think you know even you're someone

that has a remarkable ability to

practice like self-awareness and you

know you have that sort of like

emotional awareness as well. And it's

good to hear, I think, for everybody

listening to this that even your process

to from finding it out to, you know,

being emotionally unattached to the

matter to the point that you can forgive

both of them

wasn't linear at all. It was up, it was

down, it was up, it was down, and it was

long. And I think

people sometimes um think that their

experience of rejection or deceit or you

know um any of these things is uniquely

bad because their process to recovery

per se isn't linear and it's long and it

feels like the more I've talked about

this topic and the more people I've met

and you know from hearing your

experiences that in fact is the only way

out and I actually think realizing that

that's the only way out will make your

process out of that deceit or betrayal

feel

normal and natural and okay and

therefore acceptable and and I think

that's a a really important point that

you've made through the story you've

told.

Absolutely. And each person's journey

will be unique and there will be peaks

and troughs and it'll wax and wayne. And

I'm very aware that

it's possible that my journey happened

over a relatively short period of time

because of my history and my background

as a psychologist as a high performance

expert. This is the area that I deal

with. It's what developing emotional

resilience. It's how do you help people

to cope with high stakes environments

when they've lost a sense of balance in

their life? When they're struggling in

their relationships whenever they

experience something in life which

throws them how do you get back up? This

is what I've been trained to do for 15

years. Isn't it weird that life sent you

this challenge when you think about your

experience? Isn't it there must be a

part of you that cuz I think I would I

would think to myself

life is testing me to see if I can deal

with the worst and still maintain the

values and principles that I espouse

like

it it sounds this will sound really odd

uh but I almost felt at times I thought

in a way I'm so lucky because I'm so

lucky that I am where I am when this

happened. If this had happened 10 years

ago, I would have been in a vastly

different space, right?

Because I struggled 10 years to cope

with

what life gave me on an emotional level

and I would react out of the emotion. So

I'd experience it and then I would just

react and essentially that's when we

make terrible decisions.

Oh, you crash the plane.

How we crash the plane. If you look at

NASA um astronauts, they prepare for uh

the sequence of events leading up to

launch and they run through that

over a hundred times from putting on the

kit to traveling down uh to the launch

space to what could go wrong and they

rehearse it and they run it through. And

it's a way of being able to stay calm

whenever there is uncertainty or

turbulence or danger or threat

because that's whenever that's the

person you really want to be whenever

there's an emergency like we talked

about in the podcast. You want to be the

person that still has an air, a pocket,

a space of clarity that isn't affected.

So that even though you're experiencing

all these emotions on a very

physical level, deep down, you're still

grounded. You can take it. And so from

where I was, I did feel

as though I'm fortunate that life has

thrown at me something that in my mind

was one of the worst things that I could

experience. There's lots of worst things

without a shadow of a doubt, but it was

a big one. Um, and find a way to move

through. And incredibly it's informed

even even my work

because in the last year

again whether it's coincidence or not I

don't know the number of clients I've

been working with on relationship issues

has gone up exponentially and it's

issues centered on a loss of connection

a loss of intimacy

betrayal confusion. How do you

how do you stay true to who you are in a

relationship with someone else where you

feel like there's a shift or you wake up

one day and you're in a space where you

don't know how you got there where you

become like best friends living together

rather than the passionate lovers you

were 10 years ago.

You talked there a second about the calm

that astronauts are trained to develop

and how crucial that is to making good

decisions. I I I saw this quote the

other day and it said when emotions go

go up intellect comes down

and um I was thinking about just then as

you said that I was thinking what are

the factors that make somebody not calm

and then I thought and I kind of

answered myself I thought okay so it's

we talked about the ego playing a big

role and so I guess my conclusion there

is the people who will struggle to

maintain their calm in situations like

that that are so personally associated

are those with the lowest self-esteem

and the most fragile ego

and it feels feels like the work that

you've described that you've done over

the last 10 years is really like

building your self-esteem and really in

some respects a separation from ego.

Um, yeah, you've nailed it.

One, we know on a neuro level, so we

know from neuroiming studies that when

we experience emotion, the preffrontal

cortex, the part of the brain

responsible for judgment, decision-

making, impulse control, planning, goes

offline. it shuts down.

So we don't have access to that

creativity, the

wisdom that we have usually. And again,

absolutely I think the journey for me

the journey of of life involves

developing a robust sense of self.

A sense of self that is unshakable,

that is immovable, that still

experiences life and the whole gamut of

emotions and and the beauty and

loveliness of life and also the darkness

and the destruction of life, but isn't

impacted on an essential level by it.

And I think that's the journey and

that's the journey that I work on with

clients. No matter what the outwardly

symptoms are, could be weight gain, it

could be relationship dysfunction, it

could be

struggling to experience that sense of

contentment or fulfillment in life even

though I have everything that life says

I should have. It could be feeling like

I'm I'm lacking or I'm just not doing

enough or I'm not being enough. But it

all comes back to that stronger sense of

self.

and this um you know horrific experience

what has it done to your opinion of

monogamy

because I'm sure I'm guessing from what

you've said the way that you planned

your life ahead you thought when you you

know when you went walked down the aisle

and you said those words till death do

us part you then planned the next 60

years of your life and how your life was

going to pan out

and when you said those words at the end

of the at the altar you were totally

convinced Yeah,

totally convinced that this person was

the the person your soulmate.

Um,

how do you feel about all of those

concepts now like soulmate and monogamy

and till death do us part?

The experience led me to a position

where I began to question my deepest

assumptions about monogamy, about

marriage,

about lifelong relationships.

And in the same way I began to take a

step back and reflect and contemplate

I became very aware that there is a

social script for relationships and it

generally goes the conventional model is

boy meets girl. It's not even boy meets

boy or girl meets girl. There's a first

date, a first kiss, uh a period of

courting.

At some point um there will be sex

meeting the parents hopefully not at the

same time eventually [ __ ] relationship

becomes uh exclusive and then engagement

marriage children till death do its part

and I realize that that is a social

construction it's a conventional model

based on assumptions that monogamy is

natural that marriage is a human

universal

and that any structure other than the

nuclear one is aberant.

And so then I began to think okay well

what are the different what are the

different elements. So on the one hand

we can take and we touch upon it briefly

uh a evolutionary perspective

and we are apes. It's not just that

we've descended from apes. We are apes.

So we're one of the five homo sapiens

are one of the five surviving species of

great apes along with orangutangs,

bonobos, gorillas and and chimpanzees.

And yet at some point we

separated from that psychologically. And

actually the fine print that

distinguishes humans from other great

apes has been described by

primatologists as wholly inadequate.

It's it it's a fabrication.

And at some stage we began to see

ourselves as special and unique and

above nature and exempt from our

primal history because we descended from

hypersexual ancestors. So if the homo

lineage has been around for 2 million

years, modern humans have been around

for 200,000 years and about 10,000 years

ago, there was a shift in going from

hunter gatherers to settled communities

be because of the advent of agriculture.

Now up until 10,000 years ago,

the data now suggests that we actually

lived by fiercely egalitarian

principles. Everything was shared. Food,

shelter,

water, child care, and even sexual

partners.

Casual sexuality was the norm for our

prehistoric ancestors.

For 95% of the collective experience of

our lineage,

that is what we experienced.

And it wasn't it wasn't based on

meaningless random relationships. They

were relationships that reinforced

uh a social pattern that that we needed

to survive. It minimized our risk and it

reinforced social ties.

But then with the advent of agriculture,

we began to settle. We had then we had

land, we had uh domesticated animals and

for the first time private property came

into play and suddenly there was a

change and there's even a change in the

status of women because when we look at

it the human female up until that point

was on was on an equal playing field.

They were as responsible for the hunting

and the cooking and making decisions

about where they were going to settle.

And then it changed and the female

became the property of the man,

something that he had to maintain and

keep. And actually the reason that

property came into play is because we

weren't moving. So it did matter what

happened to our resources. We were

accumulating and biological paternity

for the first time became crucial.

And so on a on a natural evolutionary

level,

monogamy didn't exist. We didn't live in

long-term monogous relationships. Then

we bring in marriage.

And if we fast forward about 5 a half

thousand years

in about 2,350

BC and in Mesopotamia we had the first

marriage between the union between a man

and a woman. And over the next few

hundred years it spread the ancient

Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, they began to

adopt this widespread practice. But

marriage had a diff had a very different

meaning across the ages. In the um fifth

century with Anglosaxons, it was about

securing trade ties. It was a diplomatic

tool. In the 11th century, marriage was

about financial, economic and political

advantage.

uh and as early as the 12th, religion be

became involved and and Roman

Catholicism tied it to sacrament and it

to being a sacred experience related to

experiencing God.

Then about 500 years ago, Thomas Cranmer

came up with the modern-day marital vows

that we read out today. And he was the

architecture of uh English

Protestantism.

And then up until 1858,

divorce was rare.

Marriage was something which was

lifelong and it wasn't really

questioned. But then it became a legal

process that you could apply to do. And

it was still still relatively uncommon

because it was expensive and women had

to prove aggravated adultery,

bestiality, sodomy, cruelty. And then

the divorce gates really opened up in

1969 with the divorce reform act and

marital breakdown could be could then be

cited. So whenever we begin to take a

different lens and and we see the

journey that it's taken and then we ask

well where are we today?

Since 1975

there's been a drop in marriages by

about 30%. More people are now opting to

cohabit than they are to get married.

Divorce statistics in England and Wales

are at 42%.

You could arguably say that the system

is collapsing, that it is beginning to

crumble.

And then I would even take a cultural

lens and if I'm talking too much just

no I fascinating jump super fascinating.

So

culturally um so the Spanish word

esposes means wife and handcuffs.

We joke about the wife being the ball

and chain.

Uh a friend got married got married got

engaged last week and the talk amongst

the boys was this is the beginning of

the end of your sex life. Yeah,

but women don't fare any better. You

know, 43% of American women report

sexual dysfunction. Viagra sales are

increasing every year. They're just

record highs year upon year.

Porn is through the [ __ ] roof.

Not that I would know.

Yeah,

a friend told me.

Yeah.

Um, the porn industry takes in about 57

to$undred billion dollars worldwide.

A US report showed that Americans spend

more at strip clubs than they do at

Broadway, off Broadway, nonprofit and

regional theaters, the ballet, jazz,

and the opera collectively.

We look at the church and

there have been hundreds of Roman

Catholic priests admitting to thousands

of sex crimes. In 2008, they paid out

$436 million to victims of sexual abuse.

A fifth were under the age of five.

And these aren't that's not to mention

the forgotten victims.

And we have to ask ourself,

one, how did we get here? Two, how was

that story constructed? And three, is

marriage giving us what we want? And is

it realistic and is it feasible?

So number three.

So where am I with that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm still touring. I'll be totally

honest with you. I can

say it. I can imagine. Okay. So I can

imagine on the one hand I can imagine

being in a relationship with with a

woman and and being with that one woman

for the rest of my life.

I can also imagine

being

with someone in a relationship and

having more than one sexual partner.

But

but if if it was flipped around and

someone asked me, "Would you want your

partners to be with other men?" I'd say,

"Hell no."

Of course.

Like it just seems Yeah. it that is not

something cuz I'm so strongly programmed

against that even though that's

potentially the biological heritage. I

can't imagine being with someone who's

with with other people. I wouldn't want

to be in that situation. And I'm aware

of the acute hypocrisy contained within

it.

Yeah, I think everyone feels the same

way to some degree. I think people that

tell you otherwise are probably talking

[ __ ]

because they're playing defense against

not wanting to happen to them to some

degree, right?

Um, it's I think it's an ideal situation

for yourself, but not for the person

you're with from your perspective. I

read this book a long time ago called

The Mystery Method

um by one of the world's number one

pickup artist. And I don't know if this

is true, but what he was saying was men

are programmed in a way that seeks um

the woman to be faithful for them

because the risk the evolutionary risk

was if I impregnate you as my wife um or

no, if I if I'm committed to you as my

wife and then you are you cheat on me

and get pregnant with someone else's

child, I will then spend my resources,

my energy, my time raising someone

else's

um child and then my genetics won't pass

on that person's will. And essentially,

if you think about it from an

evolutionary perspective, I then

wouldn't have existed if I didn't have

that concern about making sure my sperm

was the one that reached the egg. I So,

you think about it from an evolutionary

perspective,

you wouldn't exist if your ancestors

hadn't done a brilliant job of making

sure their sperm hit the egg. Mhm.

And one of the ways of doing that was

making sure it wasn't another guy sperm

hitting the egg

by being territorial, by being whatever.

And on the other side, from the woman's

perspective, the book talks about how,

you know, if a woman got 8 months

pregnant

um tens of thousands of years ago, she

can no longer hunt and gather for

herself.

So really, she has to find a partner

that isn't going to abscond, that isn't

going to bounce, especially once they've

had sex. And so the book kind of talks

about some of the the reasons why, you

know, in society we typically think

women are more in search of a

relationship and are trying to, you

know, get a guy more than men are

typically. Um, is because from an

evolution perspective, they would have

died on the savannah in Africa or

whatever if if the guy had sex with

them, impregnated them at a time when we

didn't have birth control, got them 8

months pregnant, and then bounced.

Yeah. and and I don't know how true that

is, but it's something that I've

believed because I've read this book for

some time. So that's the dominant

traditional understanding of human

sexuality

because whenever you look at other

species, yes, it's about essentially an

aggressive alpha male than uh being with

a uh female and knowing that

their offspring is being continued

through that lineage.

There's an alternative which has come

out more recently where uh I know

there's a paper published in science in

2015 that actually showed that what

separated humans from other great apes

was our social organization.

Yeah. About 10,000 years ago we started

living next to water and in camps.

Exactly.

Yeah. So and then we were a tribe

essentially. I've read about that. And

up until that point though,

it's very possible that we had uh

multiple sexual partners

but biological paternity was less of a

concern because our structure was such

that so what we found out now is we

didn't used to live with our close

relatives. We actually created social

ties with other individuals. And so

we're set up in such a way that the

focus wasn't ever on individual

survival. It was on group survival,

group identity, group welfare. And the

reason is it's the group that keeps you

alive anyway.

And so it's very possible that then

there was a shift which happened

actually with this advent of private

property because that's whenever

paternity would matter. Because there's

some huntergatherer communities that

believe when multiple men have sex with

a female

that it's to collectively because you

have to think where does our

understanding of the sperm and the

embryo come from. That's very recent.

It's a very recent biological

understanding. Our ancestors wouldn't

have known that. And there are some

beliefs where collectively the men

contribute to

the production of the child

that actually it's almost like an

amalgamation of the different men then

creates that child and that child

becomes part of the group as opposed to

that one person's child. And this is the

thing just to like challenge that

thinking.

Say that there was one man in the group

that was slightly better at making sure

he was the one that

inseminated the female.

Yeah.

He his genes would pass on his his

genetics would pass on as being slightly

better for whatever reason at

inseminating a woman. And uh therefore

in the next round of you know the next

generation he would have a slight

advantage potent that that the kid of

that man would have a slight genetic

predisposition for being good at that

which would increase the probability

that it would pass on again and again

and again. And it seems like that that

those genetics and that ability to be

good at inseminating, whether it's

through being territorial or being

stronger or being more persuasive or

being more, you know, more of a peacock

um through generations over the space of

a million years from the chimps,

that would create a scenario where we

are programmed to be

through our psychology and our behavior

and our peacocking good at,

you know,

Yeah.

at winning.

Yeah.

Even through slightly more malicious

methods or

Yeah. And then there's also the social

conditioning and the ideas of of

marriage, of monogamy, of romanticism,

of what that means. And and I think what

I've really come particularly through my

work with clients is seeing that where

people find themselves in trouble is

when there's inshment. Whenever there's

too much when there's too much closeness

when actually the identity of one person

is submerged with the identity of the

other

and there's no space.

Did that happen to you in your marriage

where you became more like her.

It's incredible that you ask that.

I have a little announcement to make.

And if you're watching this on YouTube,

you might have seen a little clue as to

what I'm about to say. When we brought

this podcast back and we decided that we

were going to do it every single week on

Monday, we also decided that we wanted

to find a sponsor and a partner to help

support the growth of this podcast so

that we can take it all over the world.

We can produce the video format, we can

hire a big team, and we can make sure it

gets out to as many people as possible.

And so, here's what I did. I thought of

a couple of companies that I really,

really love and companies that I've used

for many, many years and I've been an

avid customer of. And one of those

companies, in fact, the first company I

contacted was this one, Hule. And if you

if you don't know what Hule is, then you

must have been living under a rock, per

se. But Hule has been a huge part of my

life for about four years. I I first

started drinking Hule four years ago

when I first moved to New York and I was

running Social Chain. And the reason I

did was because I was frequently missing

meals. I And if you if you know me

personally, you'll know how true this

is. I will wake up in the morning and

I'll rush through my day meeting meeting

meeting speaking on stage flying

somewhere and I'll get to about 900 p.m.

and I wouldn't have eaten a single

thing. And there's no, you know,

nutritional expert in the world that

will tell you that's a good thing. And

what then happened was I was binge

eating at 9 or 10:00. And when I say

binge eating, I mean like two large

Domino's pizzas to myself. And so then I

discovered this thing called Hule about

4 years ago. And for me, Hu is a

nutritionally complete drink, which

means that I don't have to spend hours

preparing food, which I wouldn't do

anyway. Hence why I was skipping meals.

It means that I get all the good stuff I

need to perform and have a good diet,

but I can have it in like 20 seconds.

And as someone that values time so, so

much. Hu was a godsend. I've been a

customer for I think four years. I've

had my subscription with Hu for four

years. is. So, when I was looking for

someone to sponsor the podcast, I

contacted the CEO who's been on the

podcast before, Julian, and has built

this staggering company. I sent him an

email. I said, "Listen, Julian, I would

love you to sponsor my podcast because I

can actually talk about your product

authentically." And he said to me,

"Because you've had a subscription with

Hule for the last 3, four years, and I

know you're a customer, he was up for

doing it." So, I thank you. And um every

week on the podcast I'm going to talk

about different things to do with hule,

to do with time saving, to do with um

diet and nutrition. And of course, we're

going to get Julian back on the podcast

at some point. Their company is doing

unbelievable things in the UK. If you've

not seen and sort of kept up with the

progress of your I highly recommend you

do because it's one of the most exciting

companies we've seen in the UK in a

long, long time. And uh it's an absolute

honor and a privilege to to have them

sponsoring the D of CEO, the perfect

company to be on this podcast because,

you know, it's a company that is so in

line with some of my central values. Did

that happen to you in your marriage

where you became more like her?

It's incredible that you ask that.

Whenever we first met,

she was the sensible one. She was very

prudent, very pragmatic, very

levelheaded.

She made very safe, sensible choices in

life in general. And she was known in

that way. I was a bit more of a rogue. I

was uh

a little bit more mysterious. There was

probably

sort of, you know, hint of mischievous

of um Yeah. have playfulness

and and there's an idea in psychology

that

we all that we seek in the other person

a part of ourselves that we've lost.

And so there was almost that um that

attraction there. It created that

chemistry. It drew us in together. I

think she was looking for that

excitement and and in a way that safe

danger. I was actually looking for

stability and groundedness

and over time it it connected us and

brought us together. But over time a

remarkable thing happened and that is

just like you said I began to become

more like her.

I became became safer and I actually

lost an intrinsic

part of who I was. I lost the

the wild child that's in me. I lost the

part that's a bit more dangerous, that's

a bit more risky, that doesn't always

say something which is politically

correct. And I became almost like a

sanitized,

clean version of who I was. And that's

not the man that she met. And that's not

the man that she fell in love with.

And on one level it it worked in terms

of

a stable love. There was reliability.

There was dependability. There was

relatability.

But it crushed the desire. There was a

slow suffocation

of that desire over the last couple of

years.

And so I believe that

one day

she woke up and she sensed that loss of

connection which I also sensed too and

that loss of intimacy and she was

scared.

And when the mind is scared it comes up

with thoughts. Is this it? Am I going to

have to live like this for the next 10,

20 years? will I ever get that chemistry

or that connection back? What if it

never comes back?

And when we're afraid, we're then

seeking that that part of ourselves that

we've lost. And so, it's almost less

about the other person and more about

us. It's less about turning away from

our partner and more about turning away

from a part of ourselves.

It's less about finding another person

and more about finding another part of

ourselves in which we feel alive. And I

think the fair would have been wildly

tempting, wildly exciting. It would have

been

all the things it would have given her a

lot of the things that we had in the

beginning that she missed and suddenly

it was back. And even the structure of

an affair is such that

you can't have the other person. And the

forbidden is erotic.

And it's set up in such a way that it

just perpetually creates desire because

it it has to be secretive. It can't be

long lasting for long periods of time.

There's continual space.

Now, if fire needs air,

desire needs space.

And we found ourselves in a situation

which we were seeing each other every

day. I used to be traveling. I used to

be working away a lot more. We we'd have

pockets where we'd be apart and in that

pocket, even if you're away for a day or

a couple of days, there's a sense of

loss on a very micro level and then a

sense of excitement of the person coming

back and reimagining that life together.

And so going back to your point, I did I

change and that's on that's something

which I've learned from. I've ch I

changed and I became

like a squeaky clean version of me and

and she ironically ended up turning

towards what she'd lost. Is

that something you regret?

I could feel regret in the way that I

said it there.

Yes. Yeah. Being being honest. If I

could have if I could have changed on

one level, if I could have changed that,

if I'd been aware of that and I' and I'd

seen it coming, then

I would have wanted to to stay true to

who I am. And that's the path I'm on

now. And I'd be curious to hear your

thoughts. But I

I want to live in line with my truth.

And it's like John 8:32, the truth will

set you free. And I believe that when

we're living in line with our truth, it

saves you. And whenever we

neglect our truth, it it destroys you.

Yeah.

And so if I if I'd

if I'd been able to stay truthful, I

think it would have been a very

different trajectory. I don't because

the relationship worked on multiple

levels and we and and it did. We had a

wonderful um time together for for eight

years. But it's a little bit like like

putting a frog in boiling water. It was

in cold water and the desire is the frog

is alive. You don't notice the heat.

There were unknown factors that were at

play

and it was a dance. It was both of us.

There's no we're we both contributed to

that situation. And I think she wanted

me to be that stable, dependable,

reliable person without realizing that

on a subconscious level, she actually

was attracted to the man that I was. And

I wanted to make her happy and didn't

want her to

be the kind of person that creates t

tension or or or there being too much

grit, but actually tension is what

creates fire at the same time. M

and so the rough edges were a part of

who I was and I didn't need to get rid

of them.

It's so crazy. It's almost quite

contradictory. The typical narrative you

hear about relationships is especially

from, you know, dare I say it um women

movies and on Instagram is there's this

conversation around can I change him? M

and it's and it seems typically that

people want to change their or they they

hold out hope or they want to change

their partner in some way to make them

more like the image they have of that

person.

But in fact, what you're describing is

the thing that ends up saving the

relationship is a finding someone that

you love for the way that they are and

you're attracted to for the way that

they are,

but then both parties having a

resilience to change.

Mhm. um to some degree because of that

understanding that you formed your

relationship on the basis of this person

being like this

and then but then you say okay so

over time people change and in fact in

the last podcast we did

there's a quote where you said change is

the only constant

so both of you are going to change

anyway and you talk about the spiritual

psychological change that both parties

go on

and again this kind of draws it back to

the conversation around monogamy is you

know you're going to change anyway like

you 10 years ago versus you now is

probably a little bit more stable and a

little bit more you know solid and a

little bit more rational in your

thinking.

Um and because as you said in the last

podcast change is a constant.

How do you form a how can you guarantee

that death will do you part

when change might do you part first?

Mhm. Mhm.

And and this kind of brings us back to

the conversation around monogamy, which

is I guess it's my question to you is

like if you what do you suspect now

if not marriage is going to be

the way that you know when you meet

someone what do you suspect? What's your

hypothesis on how that relationship will

be constructed

for me personally?

Yeah, I've got mine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But mine kind of

I can tell you mine if you want first.

Yeah. Okay. So, mine kind of draws on

something

and then I'll just say me too.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll both go down together.

So, what it was interesting what you

said there about um space being

the the air to a flame, right?

And for me that's so critical earlier on

when you were talking about marriage.

One of the factors you you you were

talking about was how

where marriage came from as a social

construct and how it centers on like you

know you know religion and and God and

all of these things and one of the

things that I think is also really

important to understand is as a general

first principles rule if people are

different

and we all are different every single

human being on this earth is different

then the solution should be different

like the the glove we fit is different

we have different sized feet and

different sized hands so the solution to

love or whatever that is, as binary as

it sounds, should therefore be bespoke

to who you are and the life you're

living. And for me, I live a life where

I'm I get my fulfillment out of the

podcast and my work. And that's it's

such a big part of my wiring. I can't

change that. It's the way that I am. I'm

different from my brother and he's only

a couple of months older than me. I'm

completely different. And so as it

relates to love and me having a bespoke

solution to when I meet someone and I

want to have kids or I want to, you

know, want them to be my partner. Um the

solution should also be bespoke.

And so I look at the situation that

would be right for me and it is one

that's really really rellyant on space.

Yeah.

I love being on my own. I'm happy there.

I I love having time to myself to

reflect, to think, um to work on my

projects. Space is such a big thing for

me.

So marriage and the idea of moving in

with someone and then being, you know,

on top of me seven days a week for the

next 60 years is is a is something that

I almost can't understand. I'm not sure

if I'm like psychologically [ __ ] up

and that's why I can't deal with that.

But I love this idea as the founder of

Hu said on this podcast of treating my

relationship with my romantic partner in

the same way that I treat my

relationship with my best friend. Me and

my best friend seem to get on perfectly

well and we and I can't see a divorce

ever coming. You know what I mean?

Because we have that space and we have

the the middle ground that we meet upon

which is the relationship

but we have a fundamental amount of

space um

which we both need. Like in fact my best

friend moved in with me in lockdown for

a month and yeah uh you start to piss me

off like you breathe so [ __ ] loud.

You know what I mean? like like clean up

after yourself.

How lowly do you choose?

We had an argument. I remember we I go

over something stupid like a video game

or something. Um so I going to conclude

the point. I know for me that space and

the lack of being on top of each other

is something that would be a fundamental

part of the relationship I have. I'm

willing to commit because I actually

can't see a world where I would allow

them not to or I'd be happy with them

not. Even the word allow it's like

permission, right? It's like such a

[ __ ] thing to say. But I can't see a

world where I would be okay with them

not committing to me. So I I I'm going

to have to concede that and I think I'll

figure that out hopefully if we can keep

the sex good. Right.

So space and commitment. I hate the idea

of marriage. I don't think religion or

the law have any in should have any

involvement on the topic of love.

I think they'd have a terrible track

record. Religion with homosexuality and

and the you know the history it has on

love and the law. I don't see why a

court would have anything to do with how

I feel about someone. So I hate the idea

of marriage. Some kind of commitment

that offers me space with the right

person where we both understand that at

some point we might grow out of each

other. And when we do um that's fine.

And I'm going to conclude with one point

which you actually said in the last

podcast which was when I asked you about

monogamy and about committing to someone

for life, you said to me

um don't view it like that. Just ask

yourself the question every single day.

Yeah. today. Am I happy to spend today,

this day with this person in this

relationship? If the answer is yes,

fine.

Yeah.

If the answer is no, then there's

something that needs to be addressed.

Yeah.

Thanks for sharing that. Don't use it.

I've actually got a photographic memory

where doesn't have word for word. Um,

what I know for for me is there's

definite similarities in that

realistically I can't see myself being

in a non- monogous relationship and if I

was with someone that would be the

person I would be with.

In the past though, in our last podcast

when you asked me about the definition

of love,

that hasn't changed

in that I believe that love is fostering

that emotional and spiritual growth of

someone else. But what has changed is

what I've realized. In order to

distinguish though between a partner

that you're with and a partner that you

have connection and chemistry and

intimacy with, there has to be that

physical intimacy

which which is maintained and which is

and will wax and wayne but which can

still be a light because whenever it

dies it irrevocably shakes the

foundation of the relationship. And I

don't think I put enough importance on

that. I almost had like a zen-like view

of marriage as opposed to appreciating.

And it was it was funny. It was a um

someone I was speaking to and they were

saying

from a male perspective.

Females want the new man during the day

to be kind, sensitive, loving, and they

want a neanderthol. tie them up, hang

them and tag them at night.

Yeah.

And it but you know it got me thinking

because

what if the same ingredients that lead

to a longlasting loving

relationship or monogous marriage,

stability, dependability, relatability,

safety, protection, caregiving? What if

these are the same ingredients that kill

desire?

Because

what I think is true is that, and I

should just speak for myself,

what I potentially find attractive in

the bedroom might be the things that I

actually stand against during the day.

There might be power and there might be

dominance and that doesn't match up with

how I see myself during the day. And so

then you reach this

conflict. And I think what I began to do

was I began to

become the new man and only the new man.

And actually what I want to do more

often is to tap more into

both sides.

I mean far too honest.

No, no, there's no such thing as far too

honest. We talked about the importance

of living your dream.

That's what I'm trying to lean into

100%. And uh and there's this great

philosopher called Usher who says,

"A lady in the streets and a freak in

the bed." And it's like, and it I heard

that lyric maybe 8 years ago, and I

literally say it to my friends all the

time when I'm talking about the type of

partner that I want. And it's matching

up exactly what you said, the civility

and the class with the lack of class

and the freakishness and the and and

it's it's hard to find and maintain the

balance. Um

I found

Yeah. And because sex can be really

a journey of somewhere that you go. And